Quote :

"I'm tired of hearing the GOP windbags spout out rhetoric that the US needs to be more aggressive on the situation. Let the EU handle Russia."

Except, you know, that US agreed to recognize the Ukrainian borders that include Crimea and to protect Ukraine from attack of other countries for Ukraine giving up their nuclear stockpile, 3rd largest in the world at the time.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Russia broke off its part of the agreement and instantly lost trust from ex-soviet Republics that recently began to warm up to it. If US does not fullfil its obligations and interfere in a meaningful way, so you think Iran or NK or any other country will give up their nuclear weapons programs in exchange for any promises?

3/5/2014 2:21:31 PM

and its a geopolitical issues, its not just a Crimea issue. Russia and China are trying to expand there sphere of influence in the middle east and in developing countries. we have to do at least enough to not look bad to those people or we risk losing influence in other places.

3/5/2014 3:47:02 PM

You're sounding like a Republican. I thought American influence is why the world is such a shitty place today.

3/5/2014 4:00:30 PM

oh i'd love for us to shrink our global influence, but i don't think most Americans agree with that

(and i thought isolationist ideology was traditionally a conservative value anyways)

3/5/2014 4:01:55 PM

just realized this is all about gas.

corporate media machine is has made up an invasion in effort to get iran-style sanctions and disrupt russia's booming gas industry from lowering global prices.

16,000 russian troops are in crimea?

Quote :

" 5) The Russian navy is allowed up to - 25,000 troops, - 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm, - 132 armored vehicles, and - 22 military planes, on Crimean territory. "

Of course they would use more of that when the government has just collapsed.

3/5/2014 8:10:44 PM

Isolationism and conservatism together? I don't know. I'm ok with meddling in other countries affiairs if it is really needed. But it seems like most of our meddling these days could be avoided.

3/6/2014 10:04:21 AM

i understand that its not a neo-con principal, and most republicans are neo-cons, but its a traditional principal found today among paleoconservatives

3/6/2014 10:48:32 AM

conservatives usually say they support small government, which doesn't seem to support military intervention in other countries, particularly if they're no threat to us.

[Edited on March 6, 2014 at 12:11 PM. Reason : ]

3/6/2014 11:50:40 AM

Quote :

"16,000 russian troops are in crimea? Quote : " 5) The Russian navy is allowed up to - 25,000 troops, - 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm, - 132 armored vehicles, and - 22 military planes, on Crimean territory. " Of course they would use more of that when the government has just collapsed. "

I mean, yeah they are allowed that many in Crimea, but only restricted to their bases. Most would agree that surrounding host country bases, overtaking government buildings, and restricting movement in the region might be stretching the bounds of their agreement.

The Germans might be a fair bit pissed if our troops started taking over buildings in Frankfurt and surrounding their army bases.

3/6/2014 3:30:04 PM

Only aMMurica #1 is allowed to invade countries!!!!!!!!

3/10/2014 11:47:43 AM

This is a bit different than America invading Iraq or especially Afghanistan though, right?

3/10/2014 12:33:01 PM

We didn't invade Iraq to keep Iraq. Just a little bit of oil.

3/10/2014 1:12:54 PM

And Russia just wants to protect their national interests just the same, its no different.

[Edited on March 10, 2014 at 1:35 PM. Reason : we definitely plan on "keeping" both Iraq and Afghanistan, we will do everything we can to]

3/10/2014 1:20:05 PM

Let's forget we have a track record in latin and S. America with intervening in local politics and acting when someone we don't like takes power.

3/10/2014 1:30:33 PM

^ and actively and directly enabling genocide, mass murder, and war crimes in several countries.

3/11/2014 4:53:54 AM

So is Crimea pretty much Russia's at this point...?

Pretty anticlimactic...

3/11/2014 9:48:37 AM

THANKS OBAMA

3/11/2014 9:54:09 AM

Quote :

"So is Crimea pretty much Russia's at this point...? Pretty anticlimactic..."

Crimea-wide referendum on joining Russia or staying with Ukraine will happen on the 16th. Kyiv will likely not recognize it either way, and hold another country-wide referendum. Russia will start the process of annexation if the answer is Russia. Either way, shit's gonna get real on the 17th.

On the ground level, no one on either side wants to shoot at the other side. But media on both sides is working hard to change that.

3/11/2014 11:07:00 AM

The Russians are quoting back to us the exact same studies, materials and IOC case we used to justify the independence of Kosovo from Serbia a few years back. I believe Putin is feeling a certain smug satisfaction in leveraging Western-derived materials used to politically bludgeon Russia to now hit the West and show them how helpless they are.

[Edited on March 11, 2014 at 3:42 PM. Reason : spelling is important ]

3/11/2014 3:41:47 PM

Its definitely gotten a little more serious now

3/14/2014 5:29:03 PM

How so? I haven't really been keeping up.

3/14/2014 9:23:41 PM

more demonstration that are getting more violent; russia air dropped marines into mainland ukraine; slovokia, poland, czech republic and hungary signed a military pact; russia shot down 2 us drones in crimea; russia landing more soldiers in crimea; russia moving tanks and soldiers to border; us moving ahead with military training in ukraine; russia asserting that they have the "right to protect compatriots" in any part of ukraine; ukraine creating national guard; etc...

3/15/2014 11:34:37 AM

Russia is getting ready to annex Crimea after the referendum tomorrow. ALl of the electricity, gas, and fresh water coming to Crimea comes from mainland Ukraine- this is why the Russian paratroopers (stripped of insignia, of course) were dropped off to Mainland Ukraine, to take over the gas pumping station and ensure that energy "tap" is under Russian control.

With the drones, it's not completely clear of the origin of those.

Everything else ^ is accurate, it's gonna get real tomorrow.

3/15/2014 2:47:54 PM

Belarus mobilizing their army. I guess a proxy war with Russia is better than a shooting war with Russia :shrug:

3/16/2014 8:48:45 AM

crimea votes for russia union

3/16/2014 9:00:55 PM

Surprise of the century.

3/17/2014 1:41:44 AM

What would the US do if Mexico tried to take over Baja, citing popular support? Doesn't seem like it'd go over well.

3/17/2014 1:52:12 AM

Quote :

""A leading anchor on Russian state television on Sunday described Russia as the only country capable of turning the United States into "radioactive ash", in an incendiary comment at the height of tensions over the Crimea referendum.""

3/17/2014 5:06:10 AM

Quote :

"What would the US do if Mexico tried to take over Baja, citing popular support? Doesn't seem like it'd go over well."

Did the US just overthrow their government and Mexico is claiming that Barack Obama is the legitimate President? And is Baja very pro-Mexico and pro-Obama.....

3/17/2014 9:26:26 AM

I'm having a difficult time getting everybody's stance on this issue. Nobody is saying military intervention, and nobody is really saying to mind their business either. And I think everybody agrees economic sanctions aren't going to do anything.

I don't think anybody, Obama, or if it had been Romney, would be able to successfully navigate this crap without any potentially far-reaching ramifications.

3/17/2014 12:55:30 PM

Only thing we can do now is to let them have Crimea, so that it's not contested, and then fast track Ukraine and the other former eastern block countries into NATO.

3/17/2014 1:03:15 PM

Quote :

"The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State, Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time, Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces. Confirm the following: The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments. This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature. Signed in four copies having equal validity in the English, Russian and Ukrainian languages."

I hope that whatever is part of the Ukraine remaining after the Russian land grab will start proliferating nukes ASAP. Because apparently security agreements mean nothing in the future, if the country can offer nothing to the "protectors" at that point. THis would have been a totally different conversation if Ukraine still had its world's-third-largest nuclear stockpile.

[Edited on March 17, 2014 at 1:20 PM. Reason : b]

3/17/2014 1:19:38 PM

The agreement is kinda fucked when one of the signers is invading you.

3/17/2014 3:29:09 PM

Well, that's when the co-signers should step in and put a stop to it, right? You can't back out of a loan just because your co-signer fucked up.

3/17/2014 7:49:29 PM

These alliances...that's what got us in trouble in WWI. X is aligned with Y is aligned with Z that borders A so we might as well back A up too. Oh yea, we have to cross over B to get to X, so we'll go ahead and get B involved as well.

3/17/2014 8:17:53 PM

Germany was in the right WW1.....

Only reason we got involved against them was because they made the poor choice to go through Belgium to attack France. This got the UK involved. With the UK involved, as our big trading partner, end only set the fuse for us taking sides.

France and Russia (who dropped out in 1917) should have gotten their asses kicked.

[Edited on March 18, 2014 at 12:09 PM. Reason : a]

3/18/2014 12:08:15 PM

This is what pisses me off about the EU. They basically did nothing in Ukraine when they knew what Putin wanted to do when the Olympics were over. And now that they didn't do shit, the States are put in the posistion to play world police again. Kind of a BS move on their part IMO. They should had moved swiftly on Ukraine instead of just flirting with it.

3/18/2014 10:07:33 PM

Quote :

"the States "

3/18/2014 10:37:28 PM

^^ why do you think eu is doing nothing? I have to imagine they're doing as much or more than what our diplomatic apparatus is doing.

But, as the country that spends WAaaaay more on the military than anyone else, we're naturally In a position to have more say than anyone else.

If we don't want to be the world police, we shouldn't be spending so much on defense/offense.

3/19/2014 12:48:35 AM

EU was making some moves to bring the Ukraine in, but stalled a lot. they opened up the door for Putin to do what he is doing.

3/19/2014 4:40:11 AM

No, the EU wanted them to make changes to their courts and elections and everything was moving along until Ukraine government issued a decree that stalled preparations just days before the agreement signing was scheduled. Even Yanukovych lobbied parliament to adopt the law changed requested by the EU, but then parliament stopped it and even denied requests to allow Tymoshenko to seek medical treatment abroad. The EU even reaffirmed that the offer was still on the table in November when Ukraine again declined to sign and that caused the protests to start.

3/19/2014 10:02:08 AM

No, if the EU had proceeded more urgently and made some concessions, then there would have ayrguably been no uproar. Instead, they did nothing and now we have this cluster fuck.

3/19/2014 12:42:53 PM

the EU could possibly have made more concessions, but that's not stalling. Ukrain parliament stalled, not the EU.

Anyways,
Ukraine now allowing the use of guns to defend military installations after the death of a soldier

3/19/2014 12:45:19 PM

The US would never respond to the way Russia did if our Boy in power was ousted by a populist movement started by its people!

oh wait.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_pigs

If we get really into this conflict than we really be the United States of Hypocrisy.....

3/19/2014 5:06:19 PM

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319

Moscow signals concern for Russians in Estonia

Quote :

"But amid the growing Crimea crisis, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - which like Ukraine were all parts of the old Soviet Union - have expressed growing apprehension over Moscow's intentions."

BEND OVER ABIGAIL MAE CAUSE HERE COMES THE GRAVY PIPE

[Edited on March 19, 2014 at 5:16 PM. Reason : -]

3/19/2014 5:16:36 PM

Why don't we respond by revisiting the missile shield. Our boy abandoned it. It would be a nice show of "hey, we still mean business."

3/19/2014 9:20:43 PM

Quote :

"No, if the EU had proceeded more urgently and made some concessions, then there would have ayrguably been no uproar. Instead, they did nothing and now we have this cluster fuck."

Somebody just started following Ukraine after the olympics. How cute.

3/19/2014 10:19:44 PM

Quote :

"What would the US do if Mexico tried to take over Baja, citing popular support? Doesn't seem like it'd go over well."

I think a better idea would be to demand that Chechnya be allowed to have a referendum on independence from Russia.

3/19/2014 11:48:29 PM

OH NO. A COUNTRY WE DON'T LIKE BENEFITED FROM DEMOCRACY. WE MUST RESPOND!

3/19/2014 11:52:26 PM

Quote :

"OH NO. A COUNTRY WE DON'T LIKE BENEFITED FROM DEMOCRACY. WE MUST RESPOND!"

Exactly LOLwers

3/20/2014 8:40:34 AM