rwoody Save TWW 37585 Posts user info edit post |
Neither but lord def not the first one 10/27/2023 10:39:29 PM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
whoa, wtf?! Killing hundreds in an airstrike on a refugee camp to kill one guy?
Look, I understand being relentless and aggressive in response to the Hamas attacks. I hope they kill every one of them. I also understand that Hamas is probably deliberately hiding among civilians to put Israel in a bad position...but damn, there's a difference between being savage and being savages.
[Edited on October 31, 2023 at 8:45 PM. Reason : ] 10/31/2023 8:39:43 PM |
HaLo All American 14249 Posts user info edit post |
This statement from IDF is quite telling
“I want to emphasize the strike was on a military target of significant military importance to the battlefield and for us to be able to be able to obtain our military objectives. That is why it was struck,” Conricus said. 10/31/2023 10:38:33 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25836 Posts user info edit post |
And what does it tell us? 10/31/2023 10:59:56 PM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
It sounds like they might've gotten a bunch of terrorists, not just one guy...and maybe there were only dozens killed, not hundreds.
...but still, at the very best, this sounds questionable. 10/31/2023 11:09:07 PM |
rwoody Save TWW 37585 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "CNN's Wolf Blitzer: You knew that there were innocent civilians in that refugee camp, right?
IDF spox: This is the tragedy of war. We told them to move south.
Blitzer: So you decided to drop the bomb anyway.
IDF spox: We’re doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths." |
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748710/31/2023 11:16:41 PM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
I mean...making strikes that will kill civilians is not illegal or even unusual. In fact, I think most people I think most people would be a little surprised at how cold-blooded and procedural and legalistic and calculated it can be.
...and I'm not a JAG, but I don't think it's well-defined at all what is acceptable...but it just seems to me that this might be really pushing it, at best. That's not me as a military officer saying that--it's just that as a regular person, I'm not sure it passes the smell test. I guess we'll learn more as information comes out. 11/1/2023 12:37:36 AM |
moron All American 34078 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Is it ukraine:russia::israel:hamas, or ukraine:russia::hamas:israel?" |
They’re not comparable11/1/2023 12:55:07 AM |
HaLo All American 14249 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | " And what does it tell us? " |
IDF views a refugee camp as a military target. Israel will not stop until Gaza is eliminated11/1/2023 8:05:25 AM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
I don’t think that’s exactly right. They weren’t targeting refugees. They seem to have had a very legitimate target.
It’s the balance they’re willing to tolerate regarding collateral damage that is troubling, and the refugee camp strike isn’t the first inkling of that.
They’re in a bad position. I don’t blame them one bit for ruthlessly going after Hamas. I’d do the same. They don’t really have a choice—they’ve gotta do this, and it’s gonna be bloody to do it in a place as dense as Gaza. That said, while I think it’s overstating it to say they are trying to wipe out Gaza, it sure seems like they don’t give a fuck how many Palestinian civilians they kill.
[Edited on November 1, 2023 at 9:22 AM. Reason : ] 11/1/2023 9:21:21 AM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
Also, for what it’s worth, sounds like fatalities on the order of dozens, not hundreds. Unclear whether they just whacked that one commander, or if they whacked him and his 20-terrorist entourage. 11/1/2023 9:35:28 AM |
HaLo All American 14249 Posts user info edit post |
They’re obviously in a bad position. They also wouldn’t mind the extinction of Gaza so they’ll be pretty reluctant to limit civilian impacts since if they make all Palestinians leave they’ll just say “well look at all this empty land that the Palestinians left” 11/1/2023 12:05:05 PM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
I mean I'm sure they wouldn't be terribly sad about it, but I don't think that's what they're actively trying to do.
[Edited on November 1, 2023 at 7:08 PM. Reason : (although I don't think that restraint has ever been their M.O., and certainly isn't right now)] 11/1/2023 7:07:27 PM |
HaLo All American 14249 Posts user info edit post |
There’s no one really actively restraining them right now so I think they’ll go as far to the line as they can. 11/1/2023 9:32:02 PM |
HaLo All American 14249 Posts user info edit post |
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-forced-gaza-egypt-israel-proposal-outrage-rcna122934 11/2/2023 10:59:48 PM |
rwoody Save TWW 37585 Posts user info edit post |
11/10/2023 4:02:57 PM |
emnsk All American 2761 Posts user info edit post |
It's bad, but it's also good.
edit- You need the government to carry on certain activities that may be temporarily opposed. which is why we have the senate at all too.
I guess it is valuable to see what the people are saying, but I don't really like it as an indicator, cause it can change with the wind (ie- the news cycles).
[Edited on November 10, 2023 at 4:54 PM. Reason : -] 11/10/2023 4:42:17 PM |
rwoody Save TWW 37585 Posts user info edit post |
That's a sick way to lock at this, I guess
[Edited on November 11, 2023 at 9:17 AM. Reason : E] 11/11/2023 9:16:51 AM |
emnsk All American 2761 Posts user info edit post |
Was also pretty sick when everyone supported the Iraq war? wasn't it?
I'd like a ceasefire too, and I think it's clear that my comment was on the type of statistic than what it was actually about.
Practically, Israel is gonna take Gaza in its entirety, most probably. 11/11/2023 11:49:25 AM |
Cabbage All American 2067 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Was also pretty sick when everyone supported the Iraq war?" |
Everyone? Seriously? That's a pretty fucking big exaggeration you got there. In fact, it's such a big exaggeration that it's currently in divorce court with reality.11/11/2023 2:54:47 PM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "Was also pretty sick when everyone supported the Iraq war? wasn't it?" |
What the hell are you talking about? I thought you were a college student and weren't even around during the Iraq war?
It's pretty infuriating to see how often people/organizations/media is being called "anti-semitic"... all it takes is a statement/story that doesn't 100% support the State of Israel, and bam, you're automatically "Anti-semitic". It's so dumb.11/16/2023 10:47:48 AM |
synapse play so hard 60935 Posts user info edit post |
lolololol this is great 11/16/2023 12:27:41 PM |
Pupils DiL8t All American 4959 Posts user info edit post |
I feel like there are antisemitic individuals within the pro-Palestinian movement that hurt the movement's overall image.
I also feel like there are pro-Israeli advocates who mislabel pro-Palestinian messaging as antisemitic, which negatively impacts the accurate labeling of other antisemitic language.
For example, I've seen people suggest that the phrase, "Free Palestine," is antisemitic. There are surely some antisemitic people chanting this phrase, but I don't intrinsically view it in and of itself as an antisemitic sentiment.
Likewise, I can see how Israelis can view the phrase, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," as a call for the eradication of Jews from Palestine; however, this is because I've seen individuals chanting this phrase also calling for the eradication of Jews from Palestine.
The phrase itself seems innocuous enough; however, it only takes a few individuals to create a negative association between a phrase and its meaning.
And this isn't one-sided, either; I've seen plenty of advocates for Israel calling for the eradication of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank.
It's an ugly situation on all sides, which hopefully deescalates before it gets any worse. 11/16/2023 2:18:05 PM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
For example, on NPR's facebook page, they'll have a story about the conflic, basically stating facts about what's happening, but because they're not praising Israel and condemning Hamas, there's literally dozens of people posting that NPR is anti-Semitic. which is just dumb. 11/16/2023 3:33:00 PM |
thegoodlife3 All American 39221 Posts user info edit post |
the conflation of being in support of Palestine being labeled as pro-Hamas is quite dangerous 11/16/2023 6:24:13 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25836 Posts user info edit post |
Right. Someone might think you support Palestine when all you intended to do was be pro-Hamas. 11/16/2023 8:53:22 PM |
UJustWait84 All American 25819 Posts user info edit post |
I'm anti-Hamas, but pro-nobody. 11/17/2023 1:34:48 PM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
I'm pro innocent-civilians-not-suffering-and-being-murdered 11/17/2023 1:58:47 PM |
UJustWait84 All American 25819 Posts user info edit post |
So anti-Israel and anti-Palestine? God, you're a monster. 11/17/2023 3:32:45 PM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
Another Example:
Quote : | "Melissa Barrera Cut from Next “Scream” Sequel Due to Her Social Media Posts About Israel-Hamas
...
"Spyglass’ stance is unequivocally clear: We have zero tolerance for antisemitism or the incitement of hate in any form, including false references to genocide, ethnic cleansing, Holocaust distortion or anything that flagrantly crosses the line into hate speech," Spyglass, the studio behind Scream VII, said in a statement to PEOPLE." |
What did she say that was so "antisemetic"?
Quote : | "“I have been actively looking for videos and information about the Palestinian side for the last 2 weeks or so, following accounts etc. Why? Because Western media only shows the other side. Why they do that, I will let you deduce for yourself.”" |
I don't know, maybe she had other posts that were more "extreme".11/22/2023 10:13:08 AM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
she also said this
Quote : | "Barrera’s Instagram stories included one that said, “Gaza is currently being treated like a concentration camp,” and another reading, “Cornering everyone together, with no where to go, no electricity no water … People have learnt nothing from our histories. And just like our histories, people are still silently watching it all happen. THIS IS GENOCIDE & ETHNIC CLEANSING.”" |
11/22/2023 3:05:44 PM |
StTexan Suggestions??? 6977 Posts user info edit post |
^pretty open and shut imo 11/22/2023 10:24:35 PM |
aaronburro Sup, B 52977 Posts user info edit post |
On the one hand, it's a bit melodramatic to claim that what's going on in Gaza is "genocide" or even ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans, it could do a lot better than 15k over 50ish days in an area that densely packed. Could they be more careful? Probably. Do they honestly care? Not a bit. But genocide? That's preposterous in the same way that "George Bush is a fascist" is: it's little more than a pejorative thrown around by folks whose minds are too small to comprehend even the slightest bit of nuance.
On the other hand, Israel's actions in the West Bank are a textbook case of ethnic cleansing, by any reasonable definition. It's telling that most of these progressive nuts can't even begin to successfully articulate this point, given how plainly true it is. 11/22/2023 11:56:31 PM |
thegoodlife3 All American 39221 Posts user info edit post |
ok, Rick James 11/23/2023 11:02:54 AM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25836 Posts user info edit post |
Genocide is a helluva drug! 11/23/2023 11:34:37 AM |
PaulISdead All American 8750 Posts user info edit post |
Bully victim cycle continues 11/25/2023 12:10:09 PM |
moron All American 34078 Posts user info edit post |
Biden freed some of the hostages 11/27/2023 10:51:25 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25836 Posts user info edit post |
He's too old to have done anything. I assume it was actually President Trump and Jared Kushner working the back channels who really got it done while Biden was taking a nap.] 11/28/2023 6:02:12 AM |
GrumpyGOP yovo yovo bonsoir 18177 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "On the one hand, it's a bit melodramatic to claim that what's going on in Gaza is "genocide" or even ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans, it could do a lot better than 15k over 50ish days in an area that densely packed." |
The definition of "genocide" is squishy enough that you can make the case for it. I don't think a genocide is taking place, but it's not outside the realm of rational discussion to claim otherwise. I think the case for ethnic cleansing in Gaza (and the West Bank) is much stronger. Most of all, though, I don't think there's a lot of value in parsing out exactly which kind of shittery is being perpetrated by the Israeli government.
It should go without saying that efficiency has nothing to do with the definition of genocide.11/28/2023 3:54:19 PM |
Pupils DiL8t All American 4959 Posts user info edit post |
There seems to be a consistent theme here.
Egypt warned Israel of Hamas attack days earlier, senior US politician says
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/12/israel-hamas-war-egypt-warned-foreign-affairs-gaza
Intelligence commanders ignored soldiers’ warnings Hamas was simulating major invasion
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/intelligence-commanders-ignored-soldiers-warnings-hamas-was-simulating-major-invasion-reports/
Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
[Edited on November 30, 2023 at 9:26 PM. Reason : ] 11/30/2023 9:25:08 PM |
StTexan Suggestions??? 6977 Posts user info edit post |
Bibi lied, people died 11/30/2023 10:28:48 PM |
moron All American 34078 Posts user info edit post |
Bibis kristelnacht 12/1/2023 11:01:03 PM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
Jeeeez
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/06/1217368171/gazan-journalist-says-over-20-members-of-his-family-were-killed-in-airstrike
Quote : | "Alnaouq never imagined an Israeli airstrike would hit his family home in South Gaza because Israel had been asking people to evacuate to the area. Alnaouq said his father, two brothers, three sisters, and 14 nieces and nephews were killed on October 22nd. The only two who survived were his sister-in-law and nephew. His brother, who was next to them on the same bed, was killed. " |
12/6/2023 4:59:10 PM |
theDuke866 All American 52785 Posts user info edit post |
Just to maintain some balance here with a couple of good reads….
Don’t construe this as lack of concern for the plight of innocent Palestinians or lack of concern with Israeli heavyhandedness
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-media-press-prusher?cid=ios_app
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-violence-hamas-israel-what-we-know-intl?cid=ios_app 12/7/2023 10:25:10 PM |
Bullet All American 28336 Posts user info edit post |
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/15/middleeast/israeli-soldiers-burningfood-gaza-intl/index.html 12/15/2023 1:20:27 PM |
rwoody Save TWW 37585 Posts user info edit post |
Killed their own hostages while they were holding white flags bc they "looked like terrorists" aka civilians 12/16/2023 8:25:07 AM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25836 Posts user info edit post |
Oops! 12/16/2023 11:52:37 AM |
StTexan Suggestions??? 6977 Posts user info edit post |
Whoopsy-daisy 12/16/2023 11:57:49 AM |
rwoody Save TWW 37585 Posts user info edit post |
Quote : | "NEW: Weeks before Israel’s military raided al-Shifa Hospital, it built a public case it was central to Hamas. A WaPo examination finds those claims fall short. 1/ @leloveluck, @evanhill, @JHBaran, Jarret Ley and me" |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/12/21/2023 9:17:08 PM |
The Coz Tempus Fugitive 25836 Posts user info edit post |
It's like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Aluminum tubes!] 12/21/2023 9:26:22 PM |