http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3416319

Quote :

"Cheney leads White House fight against torture ban By LIZ SIDOTI Oct. 25, 2005 Associated Press WASHINGTON - Congressional negotiators are feeling heat from the White House and constituents as they consider whether to back a Senate-approved ban on torturing detainees in U.S. custody or weaken the prohibition, as the White House prefers. Led by Vice President Dick Cheney, the administration is floating a proposal that would allow the president to exempt covert agents outside the Defense Department from the ban. Meanwhile, a provision by Sen. John McCain would bar the use of "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" against anyone in U.S. government custody, regardless of where they are held. "There's a lot of public pressure to retain the language intact. At the same time, there's pressure from the vice president's office to modify it," said Tom Malinowski, the Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, which supports McCain's provision. In a meeting last week with McCain, R-Ariz., Cheney and CIA Director Porter Goss suggested language that would exclude clandestine counterterrorism operations overseas by agencies other than the Pentagon "if the president determines that such operations are vital to the protection of the United States or its citizens from terrorist attack." White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Tuesday the president has "made our position very clear: We do not condone torture, nor would he ever authorize the use of torture." McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, said he rejected the White House proposal because it "would basically allow the CIA to engage in torture.""

See, torture is good. We need it to "protect us from a terrorist attack." Kind of like how they say they need to take away our rights and freedoms to "protect us from the terrorists."

Oh, and I love it how they openly admit they want to exempt intelligence personnel from the torture ban, and then they come right back with Orwellian statements like "oh, no...we don't support or condone torture." Just how stupid do they think people are?

And then you have the DOD and military intelligence ordering and overseeing torture at Abu Ghraib and other places. And when it comes out, the government responds by prosecuting a few lowly soldiers and would have us believe the whole thing was just the work a "few rogue bad soldiers." Yeah, right.

Torture is now an officially sanctioned government activity. Welcome to bizarro world.


[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 1:58 PM. Reason : 7]

10/26/2005 1:47:26 PM

let's see... give the terrorist food and he won't talk, beat the shit out of him and he will and save lives...

10/26/2005 2:10:31 PM

orwellian, while often cliche and overused, in this case is rather on-point

10/26/2005 2:22:57 PM

Glad to see they've come to their senses. Maybe it will scare some of those towelheads straight and they'll fess up to the bombings of 9/11, putting an end to salisburyboy's WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11, 2001 thread.

[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 2:24 PM. Reason : i]

10/26/2005 2:24:13 PM

Quote :

"Maybe it will scare some of those towelheads straight and they'll fess up to the bombings of 9/11, putting an end to salisburyboy's WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11, 2001 thread. "

Yeah, because "confessions" extracted via the use of torture are SO RELIABLE! It's not like people will say anything when scared to death in order to stop the excruciating pain or prevent being killed.

Oh, and not to mention that a government that would torture people would NEVER do something like lie about the supposed "confession." We can rest assured that the government would tell the truth. I mean torture, yes. But LYING. Why, never. Not in a million years.


[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 2:33 PM. Reason : 5]

10/26/2005 2:27:45 PM

Quote :

"Welcome to bizarro world. "

Well, I'm not surprised to see that salisburyboy is the one welcoming us to bizarro world.

10/26/2005 4:19:00 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with salisburyboy.

and i'm scared.

[Edited on October 26, 2005 at 5:11 PM. Reason : 1 word, not 2]

10/26/2005 5:11:36 PM

Quote :

"orwellian, while often cliche and overused, in this case is rather on-point"

exactly what i thought

10/26/2005 6:17:39 PM

this is wrong.... very very wrong... i agree with him on this.

10/26/2005 10:10:41 PM

WE WOULD NEVER SUPPORT TORTURE (at least not the kind you find out about)

10/26/2005 10:12:52 PM

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=413595&category=OPINION&newsdate=10/28/2005

Quote :

"An ugly turn toward torture By TOM TEEPEN First published: Friday, October 28, 2005 Something has apparently agitated our nation's nasty gene, and we're off on a toot demanding free range for some of our ugliest impulses. Take two as examples: The vice president of the United States is pushing Congress to adopt prisoner torture as avowed U.S. policy, and there's an effort afoot in the House to expand the number of, as capital punishment lingo puts it, "death-eligible" crimes and give prosecutors a second whack if the trial jury won't approve execution. The inspiration for such resorts to extremism is presumably again 9/11, which has come to serve as the all-embracing excuse for giving up any of our civilized ways that one or another politician can defame as pattycake. The United States already has been caught abusing prisoners, even unto death, in military prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay. In addition, we've been kidnapping suspects and whisking them secretly to countries who are happy, for a price, to torture them on our behalf. And the CIA is holding an unknown number of unreported prisoners in an unknown number of secret prisons around the world and is doing who knows what to them, all of that in plain violation of the Geneva Conventions, the U.N. Convention Against Torture, U.S. law and an honorable and proud history of American military practice. The odor from these abuses has become so rank that 89 senators recently joined Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in passing legislation directly forbidding "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment of U.S. prisoners. Which in turn frightened Vice President Dick Cheney into lobbying Congress to enact an option for the CIA to torture foreign prisoners held overseas, making those secret prisons the official torture chambers. "

10/31/2005 8:14:55 AM

It's actually scary when salisburyboy is the only sane person in an entire thread.

10/31/2005 10:10:09 AM

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/opinion/13074506.htm

Quote :

"It's time to decide if torture is the U.S. way Fri, Nov. 04, 2005 If our lawmakers haven't been seriously questioning what U.S. policy is in regard to suspected terrorist detainees, they need to start doing so right now. A revelation by the Washington Post that the United States Central Intelligence Agency is operating a secret global internment network where detainees are being held without any oversight whatsoever should raise red flags in a country that claims to pride itself on humane treatment of prisoners. The newspaper's report, citing U.S. and foreign sources familiar with the operation, says that high-profile terrorist captives are being held in a Soviet-era prison compound in Eastern Europe. We don't take issue with important al-Qaida suspects being detained, but considering that there is every indication these suspects are being tortured in an out-of-country Gulag by employees of the United States flies in the face of supposed American decency. The revelation of this network of prisons may shed new light on a request to Congress by Vice President Dick Cheney and CIA Director Porter Goss to exempt CIA employees from legislation - already signed by 90 U.S. senators - that would bar cruel and degrading treatment of prisoners in U.S. custody. The CIA contends that in order to protect the United States, it must be permitted to detain and question suspects without restrictions imposed by U.S. law, or, for that matter, by military tribunals such as those held for detainees at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, prison. This prison network, which the Post reported was conceived shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several Eastern European democracies. These "black site" locations are known only to a few U.S. officials and leaders of the countries in which they are located. They provide an opportunity to incarcerate prisoners indefinitely and for agents to interrogate them using whatever techniques they deem necessary. The obvious reason these prisons were set up is because the government cannot legally hold prisoners in total isolation within the confines of the United States. Under U.S. law, even foreign enemy combatants cannot be denied minimum legal rights. And, for that matter, a number of the countries in which these prisons have been established have signed a pact, as has the U.S., prohibiting torture or degrading treatment. It's decision time. The United States must decide whether or not it is going to take the high road in treatment of prisoners, or whether it will continue to look the other way as the CIA uses "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" (torture) to extract information. For the record, torture should not be the American way."

11/4/2005 12:08:20 PM

There'd be more responses if this weren't a salisburyboy thread.

Real pity, too, because I'd like to hear the chickenhawks respond to this.

11/5/2005 5:27:28 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1287118&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Quote :

"Hagel: Torture Exemption Would Be Mistake By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL Associated Press WASHINGTON Nov 6, 2005 — A leading Republican senator said Sunday that the Bush administration is making "a terrible mistake" in opposing a congressional ban on torture and other inhuman treatment of prisoners in U.S. custody. Sen. Chuck Hagel, considered a potential presidential candidate in 2008, said many Republican senators support the ban proposed by Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. The ban was approved by a 90-9 vote last month in the Senate and added to a defense spending bill. The White House has threatened a veto, but the fate of the proposal depends on House-Senate negotiations that will reconcile different versions of the spending measure. The House's does not include the ban. Vice President Dick Cheney has lobbied Republican senators to allow an exemption for those held by the CIA if preventing an attack is at stake. "I think the administration is making a terrible mistake in opposing John McCain's amendment on detainees and torture," Hagel, R-Neb., said on "This Week" on ABC. "Why in the world they're doing that, I don't know." "

11/8/2005 8:17:55 AM

If I wrote a law titled, "Ending Torture of US Prison Population" whose text included eliminating all prison sentences and giving child murderers a $100,000 trust fund, you sheep would still support it.

11/8/2005 8:22:16 AM

Oh, like a law given an Orwellian title like the "Patriot Act", but which includes text with provisions that violate the Constitution and strip Americans of fundamental rights (including allowing the government to conduct secret searches without a warrant and increasing the ability of the government to spy on the American people)?

11/8/2005 8:33:34 AM

Quote :

"Ken Mehlman Chairman, Republican National Committee Dear Mr. Mehlman, Recently, former Colin Powell aide, Lawrence Wilkerson, ratted out Vice President Cheney for encouraging the use of torture. This act of treachery occurred at a time when Our Leader is in a life and death struggle with Senate and Congressional Democrats and RINOs like Chuck Hagel and John McCain over His God-given right to beat, rape, shock, and otherwise torture brown people. Where some might see these stories as being a public relations problem, I see them for what they are, a tremendous opportunity to mobilize our base. Elmer and Myrtle Republican love torture, especially when it's performed on brown people. We need to make them feel like they're a part of it. I'm talking synergy here. Let the French bawl about torture all they want. We'll use the press attention they generate to fill the party's coffers. It's all about premiums. If NPR can give a contributor a mug every time he or she donates a hundred bucks, why can't we offer a genuine fingernail pulled from an Iraqi farmer to everyone who contributes $1000 or more to the GOP? We could put them on key chains and have some of Tom DeLay's sweatshop workers in the Marianas handpaint our logo onto them. Our base would love it. Every time they reached for their key chain, they'd be reminded of their contribution to the causes of freedom and democracy. We could give our fundraising "Pioneers" necklaces made from the ears of Gitmo prisoners. Christian Pioneers could receive a special bonus "Passion of the Christ" nail that was actually driven through a swarthy man's hand. We can reward Ranger contributors by allowing them to wield commemorative glow sticks during special interrogation sessions held at our 2008 convention at Guantanamo Bay. Each glow stick would be embossed with the presidential seal, thus making it a premium the Rangers would cherish for years. Think about it. These premiums represent our most deeply cherish values. They can't miss. Heterosexually yours, Gen. JC Christian, patriot"

http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2005_11_06_patriotboy_archive.html#113133711047376336

11/8/2005 11:37:02 AM

Quote :

"Oh, like a law given an Orwellian title like the "Patriot Act", but which includes text with provisions that violate the Constitution and strip Americans of fundamental rights (including allowing the government to conduct secret searches without a warrant and increasing the ability of the government to spy on the American people)?"

pwnt. I bet the real sheep here will not even respond to that.

Quote :

"If I wrote a law titled, "Ending Torture of US Prison Population" whose text included eliminating all prison sentences and giving child murderers a $100,000 trust fund, you sheep would still support it."

If the law is wrong on the merits, why make an exception just for covert CIA agents? Why not fight it all the way? I mean, after all you, dumb fuck, thought the analogy with giving child molesters a money prize was relevant.

When will you, stupid shit, learn using what's left of your brains and stop supporting any crap the Administration spits out?

11/8/2005 12:14:25 PM

Ive heard from a solid source that within a month or so, another 'abu ghraib' style detainee torture/abuse scadal will surface. Involvings rangers beating that hell out of a prisoner or two.

11/8/2005 1:37:44 PM

surprise surprise, i'm opposed to the patriot act.

11/8/2005 2:07:33 PM

it's no surprise at all, matt, but it does highlight the obvious fallacy in what you said.

11/8/2005 2:36:25 PM

what's great is that Excoriator is arguing against a bill just because he heard false information about it from the talking heads and HE's calling EVERYONE ELSE sheep.

11/8/2005 6:42:09 PM

you're right. stick your head in the sand and pretend that servicemen and us officials haven't had trumped up charges ALREADY brought up in the international and european court systems.

god help us if this vague and overly broad legislation gets passed.

11/8/2005 10:05:18 PM

^ Exactly. With this legislation we would have never got the useful information which is in such abundance now.

11/8/2005 11:51:18 PM

HOW LONG ARE YOU GOING TO SKIRT THE ISSUE??

11/8/2005 11:58:51 PM

I'm sorry I'm too much of a pussie to admit that had those horrible restrictions been in place now, we would have never caught Osama Bin Laden.

11/9/2005 12:04:27 AM

not you.

11/9/2005 12:19:30 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051118/pl_afp/usiraqjusticebritain

Quote :

"Former CIA director accuses Cheney of overseeing torture Thu Nov 17, 2005 LONDON (AFP) - Admiral Stansfield Turner, a former CIA director, accused US Vice President Dick Cheney of overseeing policies of torturing terrorist suspects and damaging the nation's reputation, in a television interview. "We have crossed the line into dangerous territory," Turner, who headed the Central Intelligence Agency in the 1970s, said on ITV news. "I am embarrassed that the USA has a vice president for torture. I think it is just reprehensible. He (Mr Cheney) advocates torture, what else is it? I just don't understand how a man in that position can take such a stance." US President George Bush and other leading members of his administration have consistently denied that detainees suspected of belonging to Al-Qaeda were tortured for information. But his opponents and human rights campaigners have claimed that many men taken captive in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces have been subjected to torture in order to extract information."

11/21/2005 10:08:29 AM

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051121-08125600-bc-us-torture.xml

Quote :

"Report: Cheney advocated U.S. torture WASHINGTON, Nov. 21 (UPI) -- The U.S. practice of using torture on terror detainees was rooted in Vice President Dick Cheney's office, a former senior State Department official claims. Retired U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, who served as former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, made the allegation to CNN, and said it was possible the practice was still going on. "There's no question in my mind where the philosophical guidance and the flexibility in order to do so originated -- in the vice president of the United States' office," he said. "His implementer in this case was (Defense Secretary) Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department." Cheney is lobbying against a bill in Congress that would outlaw "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of prisoners, and wants an exception for the CIA in cases that involve a detainee who may have knowledge of an imminent attack. Earlier this month, President George Bush flatly denied there was a security policy of torture, saying: "We do not torture.""

11/22/2005 8:27:25 AM

12/1/2005 3:57:21 PM

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06347086.htm

Quote :

""Torture" takes on new meaning in post-9/11 U.S. 06 Dec 2005 Source: Reuters By Claudia Parsons NEW YORK, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Torture has always been rife around the world but governments have generally condemned it, denied it, or both. Since the Sept. 11 attacks, though, some experts say the U.S. government has tried a new tactic -- redefining the meaning of torture. Reports of abuse of prisoners in Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay have incensed U.S. adversaries and alienated allies. This week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has come under pressure in Europe over reports of secret CIA prisons in Europe. "There was never a world where torture didn't exist," said Manfred Nowak, the U.N.'s Special Rapporteur on Torture, adding it is practiced "in a great many countries around the world." "But usually, until recently, those governments would never actually admit they're torturing," he said. "Now we have for the first time both an academic and a political debate saying 'We are living under new conditions. Sept. 11 has changed the rules of the game and that's why we have to rethink the absolute prohibition on torture.'" Washington says the Geneva Convention does not apply to foreign captives in its "war on terrorism" but human rights activists say it is still bound by the 1984 U.N. "Convention against Torture," to which it is a signatory."

To sum up, we can torture people, but it's not technically "torture" anymore because we've redefined "torture", and even if we do "torture" people, it doesn't matter because the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the "war on terror." Wickedly sneaky stuff. You gotta hand it to Bush, Cheny & Co. on this one.

12/7/2005 8:42:17 AM

i dont need a crazy person to tell me cheney is insane. some shit is just common sense.

12/7/2005 8:43:06 AM