classic porsche-phile:
"oh, the 996 carrera (2/4/4s)/targa(2/4/4S)/cabrio (2/4/4s)/gt3/gt3mkII (380 vs 365hp)/gt2/gt1/no,thelatergt1/turbo/turboS/gemballa/strosek/Ruf S/GTR? yeah, it's good, better than anything else out there, including your viper, but its nowhere near as fun as my 993 rs/gt3/turbo/gt2/targa/cabrio/.... but the new 997s are for poseurs....now...in 2 years when the 997 turbo is t.he last current model standing, the 998 will be crap and that'll be the greatest car ever created. Oh, and I have much more experience driving these things, so I'll excuse you're ignorance until you have had the divine experience."

me:
oh really? I'll have to drive one sometime. You must be right. I mean, you said it, right? So... it must be right. Porsche-philes. If the 996 had been air cooled, that'd be the issue of today with the 997


Here's a reason why the classic porsche-philes will never have my respect, regardless of the actual goodness of any specific rear-engined porsche (because the 911 is a great car, I hate it for the peripheral things surrounding it... about the only thing I see eye-to-eye with jeremy clarkson on):

classic porsche fans want me to buy this with every iteration:

the wacky weight dist means refinement of its logically arranged competitors over the same decades of development couldn't possibly render them similar in braking, owing to unquestionable physics advantage

AND I'm supposed to buy that

the wacky weight dist means nothing as to the total handling package of the car because of all the time that porsche has had to work out the ways to cheat a stupid starting point that its logically arranged competitors couldn't possibly still have any sort of lead on it in the same period. Please.

Eurosnobbery, a budget completely centered around a midlife-crisis sportscar and a need to crank out a better one every 6 years, intermediately hatching umpteen models and engineering revisions per model cycle, and an endless line of pre-ownership-brand-loyalty of hopeful-mid-life-crisis-purgers is all that separates the 911 from the common corvette. I'd say since the 80s. I didn't love the c4 either, but a L98 vs the 3.6turbo of the day? both pretty shitty compared to the modern counterparts.

The fact that the cars are always good is a testament to porsche as an engineering company that is hung up on a dead horse concept that for whatever reason, people keep ignoring.


I actually wrote this post a couple times, I kept wanting to walk away, but I can't post from work, so I'll just get it out now. If it had been up to me, I'd have let the 928 replace the 911 regardless of the reluctance of porsche buyers. I don't have anything against the 914 or 944 or 968 or 928. Great cars I'm told, but they weren't exactly lookers, and their audience doesn't buy what's new unless what's new is really what's old, just shinier, differing in refinement only.

Classic porschies buy "it was better then" harder than any other group of people in the world. The thing is though, so long as porsche evolves a model, they forget which old model they committed to. You don't hear anyone saying what a blasphemy the 996 was, do you? if they'd fought through the low initial sales of the 928, when they killed the 911, the porshies would've been right there to reluctantly pick up the new model as soon as the slight continuances started showing up. They need a legacy (not the subaru), it's not good enough for the car to simply be good. The boxster made it because it rode the coattails of the 911 close, but it threw out what was really wrong with it. Porsche sold it low, and now it's a fixture and they can move it up to 911 money and make it an unquestionable icon, too. Not that I have anything against that. It's lighter, prettier, and fundamentally more correct than the 911. The insane rear-engine mounting. Porsche's are almost always the 3rd or 4th car. they're driven usually by one guy, maybe a sexy little thing in the passenger seat, but it takes an ahmet-level commitment to put anything other than a brief case in that back seat. it's a conundrum. the rear seat facilitates interior room that doesn't get used! So move the engine to the right spot, keep porschey styling, and what do you get? a TRUNK where it's supposed to be that has similar useful space to that back seat!

I blame porsche's model choice on its buyers. the 944 and 968 should've morphed into better looking, better-rounded cars the way the 911 has had the opportunity to. It was an undeserving bat compared to those. Start with a pile of shit, and it's going to take a lot of deodorant to make anything that doesn't stink.

The lure to the 911 is the german equivalent of the "They don't make 'em like they used to" crowd surrounding old US cars. Don't get me wrong, I love the classics, but let's be honest, most of them were crap in anything other than image or in a straight line for about 50k miles, tops. The ones that survive are perpetuating a history they didn't actually earn. the shelby cobra is a perfect example. We (americans) claimed homage to a british sports car with a solid rear and tossed a gigantic ford in it. If you want to say that's a brilliant handling car, fine, but give credit where it's due, to AC, not Shelby. If you want to say the replicas are great, go get a Dax with the independent rear and beefed up frame, not the FFR cheapo-kit...
How about my fave GT40? its a fucking lola with a great marketing scheme. Don't say otherwise, you know better.

ok... looking over that, I'd say at least the last half of the post was pretty crap, but hey, what's a later-than-bedtime-rant-on-TWW good for other than taking a pseduo-anonymous stab at being a complete ass. Revising it mocks the institution that is TWW. Thank you.

3/3/2006 1:18:17 AM

Quote :

"holy crap I'm not reading all that"

-Tdubberxyz

3/3/2006 1:19:01 AM

Quote :

""holy crap I'm not reading all that -Tdubberxyz""

-danmangt40

[Edited on March 3, 2006 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

3/3/2006 11:03:56 AM

What the fuck are you blabbering about?

3/3/2006 11:20:24 AM

fuck this I'll just get a 914

3/3/2006 11:30:02 AM

I'd like to respectfully disagree. I don't like the 996 because it doesn't have the muscular curves and stance of the 993. I do like the 997 because it goes back to the more classic and stout look of the 993 plus the benefits of more horsepower and a much better interior. I'm also a fan of the 928, not as much with the 944 and I am definately not a fan of the 914. My dad is the resident Porsche nut and owner, and I think he would agree with me on everything except the 914, for some reason he likes those things.

3/3/2006 11:30:27 AM

Quote :

"ahmet-level commitment "

I lol'ed

3/3/2006 11:31:14 AM

you guys are seriously fucking stupid. all you do is blabber about some niggerish activities that no one cares about except for ahmet. and who really cares about that guy??

maybe someone?

3/3/2006 11:33:55 AM

fuck this I'll just get a 959

3/3/2006 11:38:52 AM

^same here

[Edited on March 3, 2006 at 12:33 PM. Reason : -]

3/3/2006 12:33:03 PM

I love porsches, but I'm not reading that retarded gibberish

3/3/2006 1:12:57 PM

Omg i can't believe i read all of that. I like the 944's for some unknown reason. I agree with ECTurboGSX that the 993 is stout looking. The new Cayman S is an amazing car, from what I've read and seen. I can't believe that Porsche made the Cayenne as it didn't seem to fit with their "mission objective." But whatever. The 914 and 924 are eyesores. My particular favorite would be the 959. There is just something amazing about its style. Also probably because its rare as hell :/

[Edited on March 3, 2006 at 6:29 PM. Reason : .]

3/3/2006 6:28:22 PM

Having the engine behind the rear axle does have advantages, forexample ability to put power down on corner exit, and under braking.

Porsche has been winning races with production based cars (911s amongst others) since long before they became the powerhouse they are today, that may enable them to work around the 'inherent disadvantages' of the rear engine set up.

I like 944 turbos for what they are, I like most Porsches. I have not owned a 911, and I probably won't anytime soon. I'll tell you what though, Porsche's reputation for building tough sports cars is well earned. You man hear and read something 2nd hand, but having been around dozens of race cars, and even more street cars that get raced and tracked, Porsches tend to be some of the very most reliable cars out there. I took my 18+ year old bone stock 944 turbo S and tracked it for 10 hours, without it missing a beat. Try that in a 1989 Toyota Supra turbo or an RX-7 turbo. I wasn't out there putzing around either... Bench racing is one thing, but I've seen plenty of sports cars have things like oil starvation issues, cooked wheel bearings, broken rotors, etc. Shit happens to almost any car, but Porsches do tend to be built a little bit better, not to mention engineered for harder use.
Ahmet

3/3/2006 6:45:01 PM

^ mk3 supra turbos hold up just fine on track, thank you very much.

3/3/2006 9:53:15 PM

this thread should have gone in chit chat

3/3/2006 11:03:47 PM

porsche & harley... 2 companies who made an ass-load of money off of refining a dumbass idea.

3/3/2006 11:05:29 PM

^^just because I ran through a rant without paying attention to grammar for the sake of not losing it's "rant-iness" doesn't make it unrelated to the garage. I'd say its a pretty appropriately placed thread, as it's all about an automotive preference.... durrrrr. a well concluded argument would prevent TKE from ever having an opportunity to say anything, and makes it harder for ahmet to look more knowledgeable than he is, which I think are dismantlings of TWW.

btw... ahmet, I don't doubt anything you said about the trail braking or corner exits, given as having a rotation about the rear has to tighten turns pretty hard, it's just that those constant or decreasing radius turns, where the weight still wants to push outward from the rear of the car I think would scare the hell outta me. With the car hinging at the rear, as it were, tightening the turn basically means turning inwardly relative to the arc the CoG would like to go, which in a car setup typically for neutral behavior, would mean a spin. The latest 911s are understeerers for this manuever so that the car fails to turn inwardly too hard in such a scenario, right? but the point is really more that I hate the way a company with the clout and ability of porsche is reduced to modifying the VW type I's drivetrain arrangement because of its relative oddity and therefore, some sort of backwards prestige to a narrow group of buyers. Anyone remember tatra? That's basically what a rear-engine setup gets you unless you're porsche.

I'd still take a cayman. it's the appropriately priced, appropriately proportioned 911 as far as I'm concerned. I hope it steals so many sales that it kills the 997. btw, have you all heard about the cayman GTR? I'll go find a link...

3/3/2006 11:32:56 PM

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/02/15/custom-porsche-cayman-gtr-to-debut-in-march/
boosted caymans... death to the 911!

3/3/2006 11:36:39 PM

it should have gone in chit chat because its just that fucking stupid. by the way, hows the dan-mobile coming?

3/3/2006 11:42:52 PM

I'll let you know right before I run you over with it, dick.

It's called a budget, and I don't have one yet. You ever run your eyes over a naked engine sitting on your garage floor, never having worked as a mechanic or taken any class more technical in that regard than ncsu's fun but insufficient automotive engineering class? It's heartbreaking.

Gimme a decade, you'll see a prototype. And it'll be uglier and slower than I'd like. That's ok, I'm 24. There's a reason I'm ditching engineering for law school. Anyone can lengthen a frame of a kit car and make his own mods, given time and money and hands-on work (most of the kit-car creators I've spoken to don't have a college degree, let alone having graduated Magna Cum Laude in Mech Engineering), not being a slave to a some corporation that'd have me engineering window-switches into my 40s. So I'm sacrificing the obvious career move so I can pull off my dreams in my garage over the course of a lifetime of weekends. You'll notice I put myself out there for your judgement not because I give a damn of what you think of me, but because by talking when I'm stumped, the better informed around you can donate info, like ahmet for example, who had a lot of good input back when I was talking about teh danmobile on here.

anyone think they're the man because they've got a wise-ass crack about that shill-bidding incident like 2 years ago over a treo that was going to go for 10 bucks? yeah, I'm sure you're above that too. I have no reservations about where my limits are.

How about you come up with something other than failing to build a car from scratch as some kind of personal failing. I also can't fly yet. or walk through walls.

Thanks for adding to the thread, too. Your post and your requiring me to abandon the direction of this thread to reply to you was worthy of chitchat, not the thread itself, dick.

3/3/2006 11:59:36 PM

i like the 911 but the 944 performed just as well and was easier to drive hard back in the day

its just that ppl like the look of the 911 so much more



and the die hards do get annoying

i dont care either way, im just gonna buy what i want whenever i can afford it

3/4/2006 12:39:35 AM

.

[Edited on March 4, 2006 at 1:26 AM. Reason : damn that made no sense and i'm drunk as hell]

[Edited on March 4, 2006 at 1:28 AM. Reason : unless you got a 944-S to put money into...they suck nigger nuts]

3/4/2006 1:26:00 AM

Quote :

"Having the engine behind the rear axle does have advantages, forexample ability to put power down on corner exit, and under braking. Porsche has been winning races with production based cars (911s amongst others) since long before they became the powerhouse they are today, that may enable them to work around the 'inherent disadvantages' of the rear engine set up. I like 944 turbos for what they are, I like most Porsches. I have not owned a 911, and I probably won't anytime soon. I'll tell you what though, Porsche's reputation for building tough sports cars is well earned. You man hear and read something 2nd hand, but having been around dozens of race cars, and even more street cars that get raced and tracked, Porsches tend to be some of the very most reliable cars out there. I took my 18+ year old bone stock 944 turbo S and tracked it for 10 hours, without it missing a beat. Try that in a 1989 Toyota Supra turbo or an RX-7 turbo. I wasn't out there putzing around either... Bench racing is one thing, but I've seen plenty of sports cars have things like oil starvation issues, cooked wheel bearings, broken rotors, etc. Shit happens to almost any car, but Porsches do tend to be built a little bit better, not to mention engineered for harder use. Ahmet"

i agree with ahmet. from my experence i have found porsches to be superior in many ways to other track vehicles. all my experence has been from 911's and a gt3. our first porsche track vehicle was a 1988 carrera. before even touching the motor i ran vir, cmp x 2, and lowes. all of which were weekend events. so lets say thats prob 5 hours of track time on it each time. thats 20 hrs on the track. other than going through 2 sets of tires there was no problems with it. i say thats a hell of a testimony about the quality of porsche.
i can say with total confidence that the only negative of the motor over the rear axle is when you enter a corner too hot. once you learn to control your entry speed nothing can match the porsche for exit speed. in my mind thats the beauty of 911's. exit speed is king in my opnion. i will take exit speed over entry any day.

3/4/2006 10:49:12 AM

ah yes, insulting my debating skills b/c I didn't read the top post. Tell you what, I'll read it.

But regardless of your "thoughts" the bottom line is the 911 is the most successful racing car of all time, and it will never be eclipsed in that regard. So suck on that for a bit.

in regards to the original post, who cares about the porsche owners/snobs. Doesn't change what the car itself is.

[Edited on March 4, 2006 at 12:20 PM. Reason : yah]

3/4/2006 12:14:53 PM

i love driving the 997

3/5/2006 9:05:46 PM