The police themselves are in question here for their choice of not arresting. AKA they are suspected of corruption. If they want to clear their names, then quoting secret witnesses that only they can talk to wont help.

3/26/2012 3:22:30 PM

Just for the sake of argument. Let's say Trayvon had successfully killed Zimmerman during the scuffle.

Would you mouth breathers be as willing to grant him "self defense" immunity from killing a man who was stalking him and confronting him?

Or do you think he'd be sitting in a jail cell right now, waiting to be tried as an adult?

3/26/2012 3:22:52 PM

hell yeh

i wish trayvon would have fucked him up if zimmerman started it


WHOEVER the fuck started the first violence needs to go down. /thread

3/26/2012 3:24:09 PM

Well, no JHC, you see as soon as Martin gained the advantage during the fight it would have gone from self-defense to assault. What he should have done is used a gun and shot Zimmerman while he was still the aggressor!

3/26/2012 3:24:11 PM

or does "stand your ground" basically mean that you are able to pick a fight with anyone, and then blow their fucking head off if they start to win the fight?

3/26/2012 3:24:16 PM

Now you're getting it.

3/26/2012 3:26:30 PM

here's what happened. zimmerman didn't want the kid to get away... so he ran after him , since he was sick of the jokers constantly robbing that place and getting away.(clear from the 911 call and his history working with that community)

but trayvon was like 'wtf mang, why you following me around i aint do shit'

then zimmerman was like 'i want to know what the fuck you are doing here' and continues to follow him so he doesn't 'get away' without questioning

then trayvon was like 'hell naw, why is this joker coming up to me'

at that point somebody threw a punch/attacked/etc.... (nobody knows)

if it was zimmerman, then he needs to rot in a jail cell, and we can begin the revenge killings

if it was trayvon who attacked then all you emotional idiots will have to settle down.

3/26/2012 3:30:11 PM

You seem to assume that Zimmerman had any kind of authority or right to detain Martin, which in your story is what he was doing. Pretty sure if someone's trying to unlawfully detain you you're entirely in the right to try to escape, even if that means throwing a punch.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 3:40:07 PM

You see what happens when laws are written and endorsed by lobbyists who's sole gain is to increase profits for companies? You think these laws are written to protect you? Fuck you, you're nobody. These laws are written to increase sales. You can go fuck off and get shot in a ditch.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:42 PM. Reason : ]

3/26/2012 3:40:08 PM

Quote :

"I don't get how the "aggressor" role switches back and forth. If I fight a mugger, am I supposed to stop and run the moment I gain the advantage? And seriously, THAT advantage makes him the aggressor, but not using a fucking gun to kill somebody you aggressed against?"

yes in fact the role of the aggressor can switch back and forth. and in fact if Trayvon would have pulled a gun when Zimmerman was the aggressor and he killed Zimmerman then he would be justified if in fact he was afraid for his life or bodily harm. its just the way it works.

3/26/2012 3:40:08 PM

So if I start a fight with you, and you start to win, I'm allowed to shoot you dead?

3/26/2012 3:41:22 PM

Quote :

""You know there was another eyewitness that saw Zimmerman on top, right? Are you forgetting about that?" Who? Link?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call4.ogg

I had read people attribute this account to identifying Zimmerman on top, but true, it's more complicated than that. She identifies a "white T-shirt" and nothing else. Then the debate is if we're talking about the outer or under garment.

Zimmerman himself identified Trayvon's hoodie as "A dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie" in his own 911 call.

It would have been possible for Zimmerman's jacket to come off, but not for Trayvon's hoodie. The other possibility is that the hoodie was mistaken for a white shirt.

When Zimmerman's "back" was wet, what was that supposed to mean? His white shirt or his red jacket?

3/26/2012 3:42:17 PM

ok dumbasses


i know you're not going to like this... but its time to let the truth hammer drop



i know you love to cut that little piece of the graph and pretend like it's a huge deal. but oh no. you forgot to show the whole truth

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:45 PM. Reason : 3]

3/26/2012 3:43:11 PM

Quote :

"So if I start a fight with you, and you start to win, I'm allowed to shoot you dead?"

no. if you start a fight with me, then i blow your fucking head off.


[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:44 PM. Reason : -]

3/26/2012 3:44:18 PM

Quote :

"So if I start a fight with you, and you start to win, I'm allowed to shoot you dead?"

YES!!!

3/26/2012 3:44:30 PM

Quote :

""An unsworn statement from an anonymous "witness" who refuses to give his name or be shown on television? Sounds legit." You don't know that it was unsworn, and he's not anonymous to the police. He's anonymous to the public because the police still haven't revealed everything they have - that, in itself should give people caution in judging this case. Why would he refuse to be shown on television or go public? The answer is really easy."

I'm more curious where the 911 tapes are of John calling like he says he did are.

3/26/2012 3:45:38 PM

I wonder if you realize that your graph stops at 2008? And that there is a spike at 2005, which is right where the previous charts pick up?



:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:49 PM. Reason : ]

3/26/2012 3:48:30 PM

Oh no. More truth hammer time

Violent crime rates in florida:

RAPE-
2000 -7,057
2005-6,592,(-465)
2010-5,373 (-1,215)

ROBBERY-
2000-31,809
2005-30,141(-1,668)
2010 26,086 (-14,055)

AGGRAVATED ASSAULT-
2000-90,008
2005-88,341 (-1,667)
2010 69,523 (-18,818)



Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

people being able to defend themselves from thugs is such a fucking bitch isn't it


[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:52 PM. Reason : :(:(:(]

3/26/2012 3:48:50 PM

Quote :

"YES!!!"

And you don't see any possible consequences emerging if that were the case?

3/26/2012 3:49:01 PM

Quote :

"And you don't see any possible consequences emerging if that were the case? "

why do you think i'm getting my CCP? this is the thing you have to understand. when claiming self defense you can not end the fight as the aggressor. you can only go as far as to diffuse the situation. that could be by a punch, stabbing you with a knife or shooting you. so if its a fist fight for example, once I have knocked you down I can no longer pursue you, that would make me the aggressor. however if you punch or attack me I can shoot you. the situation has now been diffused and i am justified.

3/26/2012 3:55:05 PM

Oh no florida crime is shrinking because people can defend themselves

I know this will come at surprising and shocking news to many of you

for that I profusely apologize that you can't go freely about committing crime



[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:55 PM. Reason : -]

3/26/2012 3:55:06 PM

oh, and don't forget (add to last post):

Quote :

"Cutcher said it was short, and police never questioned her in detail until after she repeatedly reached out to them. "Blew us off, and I called him back again and I said, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,'" Cutcher said. Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard."

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

This idea that John was the only person who laid eyes on the scene near the end of the conflict is wrong. And some of those witnesses are not happy with how the case was handled. This is very relevant.

3/26/2012 3:55:19 PM

pack_bryan, the entire US experienced a massive drop in crime rate over that time period, not just gun-happy Florida



Regardless, Florida is and has always been above the national average for violent crime.



[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 3:57:21 PM

well, one way to reduce murder numbers...... is to legalize it.

3/26/2012 3:58:43 PM

Quote :

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call4.ogg I had read people attribute this account to identifying Zimmerman on top, but true, it's more complicated than that. She identifies a "white T-shirt" and nothing else. Then the debate is if we're talking about the outer or under garment. Zimmerman himself identified Trayvon's hoodie as "A dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie" in his own 911 call. It would have been possible for Zimmerman's jacket to come off, but not for Trayvon's hoodie. The other possibility is that the hoodie was mistaken for a white shirt. When Zimmerman's "back" was wet, what was that supposed to mean? His white shirt or his red jacket?"

She looked out her window AFTER she reported the screams and gunshot, at least it sounds that way. That means the guy on top was the only guy still alive - which is exactly what we'd expect given that the shot was fatal.

The call is consistent with both stories. It's not problematic for Zimmerman to be on top, or standing up, after the shot in his story.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:00 PM. Reason : a]

3/26/2012 3:59:55 PM

^^^,
oh no

now he's very very sad that crime in florida has significantly dropped and he must now go about searching and researching and looking around furiously typing for anything to try to show that people in the suburbs who have fled crime from the inner cities of the united states should be deprived of the ability to defend themselves from thugs



ooooohhhh noooooooooo

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 4:01:01 PM

Why would Zimmerman be on top after shooting Martin in self-defense?

3/26/2012 4:01:10 PM

Because dead people can't stand up or stay on top?

3/26/2012 4:02:30 PM

Quote :

"now he's very very sad that crime in florida has significantly dropped and he must now go about searching and researching and looking around furiously typing for anything to try to show that people in the suburbs should be deprived of the ability to defend themselves from thugs"

All I didnt was point out that the downward movement of violent crime in Florida was no different from the national average, sorry you're so butthurt that your little discovery of the falling rate turned out to be not as significant as you imagined.

3/26/2012 4:03:06 PM

^^pwnt. lol

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:03 PM. Reason : ,]

3/26/2012 4:03:17 PM

Quote :

"Because dead people can't stand up or stay on top?"

That doesn't explain why Zimmerman himself would be on top.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:05 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 4:03:34 PM

^ do you understand how the role of the aggressor can change now?

3/26/2012 4:05:09 PM

By your logic, I could grab a gun, walk downtown, and kill about 20 people by starting fights, letting them win, and shooting them. Something tells me there's a little more to the law than you're aware of.

3/26/2012 4:06:34 PM

aww you said butthurt

and you never respond to these HUGE drop offs in crime:

RAPE-
2000 -7,057
2005-6,592,(-465)
2010-5,373 (-1,215)

ROBBERY-
2000-31,809
2005-30,141(-1,668)
2010 26,086 (-4,055)

AGGRAVATED ASSAULT-
2000-90,008
2005-88,341 (-1,667)
2010 69,523 (-18,818)


why won't you directly answer that? oh because you fucking can't


keep changing the subject

3/26/2012 4:06:36 PM

Quote :

"By your logic, I could grab a gun, walk downtown, and kill about 20 people by starting fights, letting them win, and shooting them. Something tells me there's a little more to the law than you're aware of."

UGH!! well i tried to articulate it as best i could. i'll grab some direct quotes from my concealed carry class book that may clear it up for you. if you still don't understand then i'd recommend taking a concealed carry class so you know your rights.

3/26/2012 4:09:23 PM

Rape in Florida from 2000 to 2010 - 14% reduction

Robbery - 13% reduction

AA - 20% reduction

US Violent Crime from 2000 to 2010: ~15% reduction

WTG Florida!

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:11 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 4:11:19 PM

Quote :

"UGH!! well i tried to articulate it as best i could. i'll grab some direct quotes from my concealed carry class book that may clear it up for you. if you still don't understand then i'd recommend taking a concealed carry class so you know your rights. "

I took your logic, that I can start a fight but if I start losing shoot the person, and extended it to it's logical conclusion. Sorry your stupid flimsy recollection insufficiently states the conditions of self defense, maybe you should retake that course, you clearly didn't pay attention the first time.

3/26/2012 4:12:49 PM

Zimmerman started a fight with Trayvon?

Did any witnesses see him do this?

3/26/2012 4:20:08 PM

^^ damn dude i was just trying to help. no need to get all defensive.

3/26/2012 4:26:41 PM

Sorry, you deferred your chance to be all "Wah wah don't be so mean to me" when you made that condescending "I'd recommend you take a class...know your rights" remark after revealing that you, in fact, do not know your rights and have only a vague recollection of them.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 4:28:28 PM

nah i was just trying to say it was very educational and obviously I wasn't doing a good job of articulating that to you

but you are right in that if Zimmerman did in fact escalate the confrontation then he never should have done that. as a CCW holder, your main objective would be to de-escalate the situation only using deadly force if the other person escalates the situation and you have fear of death or bodily harm. its hard to say what exactly happened as the only witness testimony of the escalation is from Zimmerman himself. However, it is still with in your rights to investigate any suspicious behavior. I don't think we will ever know what happened. i don't think Zimmerman went out with the intention of killing someone that night. he was carrying because he was afraid. all he saw was a 170lb 6'2" man. i would have been carrying too. how an exchange of words escalated to Zimmerman on his back being beat up is the big unknown here. However with what we do know, he had the right to shoot Trayvon.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:36 PM. Reason : ...]

3/26/2012 4:30:14 PM

str8foolish barks very very loudly and is quickly and easily offended over the slightest detail

you're going to have to watch yourself around these parts sparky.

3/26/2012 4:36:19 PM

yeah damn...maybe i should just stick to the garage.....hahaha

3/26/2012 4:38:01 PM

This makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever.

So, it's okay to use lethal force with a gun if you feel threatened. But, if you feel threatened, and you don't have a gun, is it not alright to just beat someone to death?

As in, if you have a gun, you are given the right to kill someone. If you don't have a gun, you are only allowed to marginally hurt them, and then you have a duty to retreat? What if you have a hatchet? Or a knife? Can you kill then? What is it about the efficiency of a gun that somehow makes this okay?


What is it about having a gun that somehow justifies murder? Oh, that's right, its the NRA and gun lobbyist trying to increase profit margins. Don't try to bring logic into this. It's about corporatism on a different level. Nothing more, nothing less.

3/26/2012 4:38:42 PM

Quote :

"all he saw was a 170lb 6'2" man"

Zimmerman describes Trayvon as a teenager in the 911 call. And he only weighed about 140lbs.

3/26/2012 4:40:08 PM

Quote :

"So, it's okay to use lethal force with a gun if you feel threatened. But, if you feel threatened, and you don't have a gun, is it not alright to just beat someone to death?"

that is absolutely correct!!

^ ah...i read he was 170lbs

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM. Reason : ..]

3/26/2012 4:40:10 PM

care to explain the logic behind that?

3/26/2012 4:42:09 PM

you kinda look scary i'm afraid therefore i'm going to beat you to death

vs

my life is in imminent threat of danger and i could lose my life but i can't shoot to protect myself.

3/26/2012 4:45:44 PM

anyone?

3/26/2012 4:47:12 PM

i'll try....

say for example you are attacked. you have the right to shoot that person, stab that person, hit that person with a bat. all of this would be ok becasue you were acting in self defense even if that person dies.

you can not however, shoot that person, watch him fall over incapacitated and then empty the clip in him...

you can not stab that person, render him incapacitated and then stab him to death...

you can not punch that person, knock him down, sit on his chest and beat his brains out.

do you see the difference. the last three scenarios were not acting in defense, they were the role of the aggressor.

3/26/2012 4:47:49 PM