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GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Atheism enabled the regimes of Stalin, Pol Pot, etc as much as them having dark hair. You're welcome to demonstrate otherwise."


These regimes were enabled by large numbers of people who shared and supported their ideology, which prominently featured not just atheism but active opposition to religion. Their ideology did not include hair color. A policy of shooting priests doesn't come about on a whim, it comes about because people want to shoot priests.

Not that it matters. I don't need to prove that atheism is responsible for Stalin because that isn't my point and I don't believe it's true. My argument isn't "atheism caused communist atrocities," it was "Things aren't so hunky-dory when you get rid of religion, either, so maybe religion isn't the problem."

Quote :
"Religion can easily embrace science and keep its strange hold on peoples' hope"


Exactly. You want to yell at the imbeciles who are preaching that the world is 5,000 years old, I'll help you do it. What I'm not so fond of us the rest of your sentence, where you broadly accuse "religion in the US" of being guilty of just that. When you are talking to a religious person who believes in evolution and whose church is down with that, you can't tell him that "religion" is some monolithic thing that doesn't believe in evolution and makes its followers refuse to believe it as well.

Quote :
"So there are dogmatic assholes everywhere, there is no reason why anyone is more of a dogmatic asshole than others, and we should do nothing about it. That's what I'm getting from Grumpy."


Yes, kind of, and not even remotely. There are reasons why people are assholes. Those reasons are widely varied. I don't think those reasons are often religious, because the majority of religious people are not assholes.

I absolutely am not saying "we should do nothing about it." When some prick is trying to make schools teach intelligent design, or saying that gays are responsible for America's problems, or opposing vaccines, or whatever, oppose him. Argue with him. Call him names. If he's a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, kick him in the balls and I'll help raise your bail money.

What I don't want you to do is simple and limited: Don't paint all religious people with the same brush, don't blame "religion" in general for these issues, don't lump me in with Pat Robertson because Sundays I go to church and try to be a better human being.

4/25/2014 2:06:37 AM

disco_stu
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This:
Quote :
"don't lump me in with Pat Robertson because Sundays I go to church"


has nothing to do with this:

Quote :
"and try to be a better human being."


Quote :
"These regimes were enabled by large numbers of people who shared and supported their ideology, which prominently featured not just atheism but active opposition to religion. Their ideology did not include hair color. A policy of shooting priests doesn't come about on a whim, it comes about because people want to shoot priests."


To enforce their state dogma. To replace religion with another dogma. How many times do I have to say this?

Atheism isn't dogma. It's just the lack of belief in the existence of gods. Is a-leprechaunism also a dogma? Is a-Unicornism also a dogma?

Quote :
"I don't think those reasons are often religious, because the majority of religious people are not assholes. "


Because there are billions of ideological people, ideology cannot be the cause of the shitty actions of a non-zero number of credulous assholes?

Actually, let present my thesis on why the "majority of religious people are not assholes."

They are not assholes in spite of being religious. They are not assholes because they loosely interpret the Iron Age bullshit of their holy texts to reconcile it with modern secular sensibilities and many others simply do not take it seriously and/or compartmentalize it away from their normal day-to-day and live their lives as de-facto secularists.

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 2:38 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2014 2:19:58 AM

dtownral
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The majority of religious people are either assholes or blind followers of assholes

4/25/2014 6:35:21 AM

rjrumfel
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Stop with the generalizations.

4/25/2014 8:07:02 AM

dtownral
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Here is a map of all of the publicly funded schools that may teach creationism:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html
Quote :
"State-by-state breakdown

Arizona: As many as 15 schools that teach creationism may be participating in the state’s tax credit scholarship program for disabled children or children attending underperforming schools. (Arizona has not released a list of private schools that have received students on this scholarship.)

Arkansas: Responsive Education Solutions operates two campuses in Arkansas that use creationist curricula. (See Texas.)

Colorado: At least eight schools in Douglas County teach creationism while participating in the Douglas County Scholarship Program.

Florida: At least 164 schools teach creationism while participating in the state’s tax credit scholarship programs for disabled children and children from low-income families.

Georgia: At least 34 schools teach creationism while participating in the state’s tax credit scholarship program for disabled children.

Indiana: At least 37 schools teach creationism while participating in the state’s voucher program for children from low-income families.
Louisiana: The Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008 allows teachers to use “supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner,” specifically theories regarding “evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning”—in effect, allowing creationist material inside classroom. It’s no coincidence that the Discovery Institute, a creationist think tank that provides such “supplemental textbooks,” helped write the bill, which the American Association for the Advancement of Science described as an “assault against scientific integrity.”

Ohio: At least 20 schools teach creationism while participating in a tax credit scholarship program for children in underperforming public schools.

Oklahoma: At least five schools teach creationism while participating in a tax credit scholarship program for disabled children.

Tennessee: A 2012 state law, like Louisiana's, permits public school teachers to teach the “scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses” of theories that can “cause controversy,” specifically citing evolution, global warming, and cloning, thereby providing legal cover for teachers who want to forward creationist pseudoscience.

Texas: The state’s largest charter program, Responsive Ed, receives $82 million in taxpayer money each year, but that hasn’t stopped its schools from adopting a creationist curriculum that seriously misrepresents the science of evolution. These materials wrongly portray the fossil record and the age of Earth as scientifically controversial, assert that there is a lack of “transitional fossils,” and claim evolution is untestable.
Utah: At least five schools teach creationism while participating in a tax-credit scholarship program for disabled children.

Washington, D.C.: At least three schools teach creationism while participating in a tax-credit scholarship program for children from low-income families.

Wisconsin: At least 15 schools teach creationism while participating in a Milwaukee or Racine voucher programs."


Because of this, Americans do not understand evolution:
Quote :
"Americans do not get it. Nearly half of US adults believe that humans were created as is, less than 10,000 years ago (Newport 2012). Those of us who care about evolution education must confront a sobering truth: evolution education does not work. Yet since long before the days of John Scopes, most of us have simply offered more of the same."

http://ncse.com/files/pub/RNCSE/33/6-All.pdf

4/25/2014 8:41:28 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"Stop with the generalizations.
"


it's true, the religious right has taken over christianity and the republican party. progressive christians are now a minority, and one with little political power.

from The Christian Post:
The GOP and the Christian Right: A Viral March to Irrelevance
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-gop-and-the-christian-right-a-viral-march-to-irrelevance-91013/
Quote :
"Was it the message or the messenger, or perhaps the way in which the message was delivered? That is the debate going on among the political pundits assessing the post-election wounds of the Republican Party. My take? All of the above, and they had better get used to it.

The same questions could, and should, be asked by all of us who are concerned with the relevance - as well as the growing irrelevance - of Christianity in America. My take? It is no coincidence that Christianity suffers in lockstep with the Republican Party as to its message, messenger, and delivery.

Both are showing symptoms of a diseased process that is ravaging the Republican Party and the Christian faith. The former I could not care less about, but I grieve for what has happened to Christianity in America. I grieve for what Christian leaders are doing to the faith.

Diagnosing the problem for both camps is really quite easy. The cause? Look no further than the so-called "Christian Right.""

4/25/2014 8:45:41 AM

moron
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^ interesting, i wonder how prevalent those ideas are in churches these days. It must be of concern the waning numbers of people actually going to Church, but at the same time, the churches that have people now wield more political power.

4/25/2014 11:07:43 AM

dtownral
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one thing that would help would be to start taxing churches, it would limit the power of the large, political mega-churches

4/25/2014 11:23:14 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"To enforce their state dogma. To replace religion with another dogma. How many times do I have to say this?"


I'm not disagreeing with you. But since there is always, 100% of the time, "another dogma" to replace the first, getting rid of the religion doesn't get you anywhere.

Quote :
"Because there are billions of ideological people, ideology cannot be the cause of the shitty actions of a non-zero number of credulous assholes?"


If I've said religion is never ever the cause, that is to say there are zero examples, then I retract that statement. I don't think I have said it, though. In fact I'm pretty sure I haven't, and I'm absolutely certain I said the opposite in the bit you quoted.

As to your thesis, I think you are partially right. There are the modernists, the progressives, who aren't assholes because they've adjusted their beliefs to the times. I don't think there's anything wrong or even hypocritical about that; in the example of Christianity, it's built into the religion. There was a whole separate testament that updated the belief system for a new time, and now I get to eat bacon.

You're also leaving out the people who actually do follow the central tenets of the religion, the things that the "bullshit iron age holy books" outright say are most important, like loving your neighbor. People who get that part at least have to figure, "Well, hmm, maybe being gay is bad and maybe it isn't, but even if it is I'm not supposed to treat you like dog shit." And lo and behold, you have a really religious person who isn't a jerk.

4/25/2014 11:28:17 AM

moron
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Or it could trigger them to go into full bore PAC mode...

4/25/2014 11:28:57 AM

dtownral
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they are already in hardcore PAC mode, and they have no issues playing politics from the pulpit and the IRS refuses to enforce laws against it. if you taxed them it would discourage mega-churches, which would make centralizing power and organizing more difficult.

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2014 11:34:02 AM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"But since there is always, 100% of the time, "another dogma" to replace the first, getting rid of the religion doesn't get you anywhere"


I categorically disagree. Reason-based skepticism is not dogmatic. We can replace dogma with scientific secular systems which maximize well-being and minimize suffering. Well, we could if religion didn't claim (without reason) a monopoly on moral reasoning.

Quote :
"As to your thesis, I think you are partially right. There are the modernists, the progressives, who aren't assholes because they've adjusted their beliefs to the times. I don't think there's anything wrong or even hypocritical about that; in the example of Christianity, it's built into the religion. There was a whole separate testament that updated the belief system for a new time, and now I get to eat bacon."


While conveniently ignoring much of what Jesus taught and essentially all of the what Paul suggests. I'm not saying modernists simply ignore the old testament. They cherry pick the entire bible front to back.

Quote :
"You're also leaving out the people who actually do follow the central tenets of the religion, the things that the "bullshit iron age holy books" outright say are most important, like loving your neighbor. People who get that part at least have to figure, "Well, hmm, maybe being gay is bad and maybe it isn't, but even if it is I'm not supposed to treat you like dog shit." And lo and behold, you have a really religious person who isn't a jerk."


We can get to "I'm not supposed to treat you like dog shit" without this religious baggage of "Well, hmm, maybe being gay is bad and maybe it isn't, but even if it is ". I fail to see the utility of religion today.

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 11:40 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2014 11:40:22 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"We can replace dogma with scientific secular systems which maximize well-being and minimize suffering."


You're claiming the ability to do a thing that has never been done and which all human history shows to be counter to our nature. Which sounds an awful lot like taking something on faith...

People have suggested this before, and every time it quickly became a vehicle to some sort of dogmatic thinking, usually one that was much worse than the one it replaced.

4/25/2014 11:48:03 AM

Dentaldamn
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People need to believe in stuff regardless of what that stuff is.

Can we talk about sports now?

4/25/2014 11:54:53 AM

dtownral
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Their beliefs aren't the issue, its when they try to force their beliefs on others. Grumpy is claiming that its possible for them to not force their beliefs on others, but he has at least conceded that they are certainly not doing that now. He started by saying that no one in power was doing it, then that it was just on the fringes of power, then conceded the point entirely.

You aren't going to change the mind of people like Grumpy through reason, and they are allowed to have their misguided beliefs, the best strategy is to bring to light all the instances where they try to force their beliefs on others

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

4/25/2014 11:58:41 AM

GrumpyGOP
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I've conceded nothing, I just stopped talking to you in favor of disco_stu, who can be kind of a jerk but at least he isn't a total dipshit.

I never denied that there are religious people who try to force their beliefs on others, so that's not a concession.

As to people in power? I mean, the President of the goddamn United States is Barack Obama, a guy who is most likely faking any adherence to religion (and I don't fault him for that, I suspect many leaders do). This is a pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage President who I'm sure believes in evolution and an Earth that is billions of years old.

I'll stand by saying "people on the fringe," although the term isn't perfect. Mike Huckabee is on the fringe because when he tries to run for president we tell him to go away. Ditto Rick Santorum. And that all goes twice for Michelle Bachman.

Quote :
"You aren't going to change the mind of people like Grumpy through reason, and they are allowed to have their misguided beliefs, the best strategy is to bring to light all the instances where they try to force their beliefs on others"


Pro-tip: another good strategy is not constantly insulting them or treating them with utter contempt so that they automatically feel defensive and have something to rally the troops around. No, Christians are not oppressed in the US, but many manage to convince themselves that they are, and comments like yours don't help.

You don't have an obligation to play nice, but if we're talking about "best strategy," there you have one.

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 12:20 PM. Reason : ]

4/25/2014 12:16:26 PM

dtownral
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It sounds like your high school civics class may have skipped a few chapters about the government

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 12:19 PM. Reason : TIL Tom Delay was a fringe politician ]

4/25/2014 12:18:35 PM

GrumpyGOP
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I'm sorry, are we talking about people who are actually in power or near power, or are we talking about guys who got thrown out nearly a decade ago and have no power whatsoever?

4/25/2014 12:22:08 PM

moron
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I wonder how Sweden and Denmark have been doing on the public discourse side of things?

Regarding scientific research, the US is already on its way out the door, something I imagine the Christians in power now have no issues with:

This is the growth in papers published by country. Japan and Europe are pretty much kicking everyone's ass. Keep in mind that research is the engine that drive economies to grow. Google was a direct result of research funding (as was Siri), and obviously research is what provided the basis for all the tech companies, which is why America is the leader in tech worldwide currently.

4/25/2014 12:23:50 PM

dtownral
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The Rise of Fundamentalist Belief
http://markmanson.net/fundamentalism
Quote :
"There’s a demographic paradox going on in the world. While overall religiosity is decreasing and atheism and agnosticism are increasing, religious fundamentalism has also been increasing and become more politically influential than ever before.

In the centuries after the enlightenment, world politics was defined by the struggle between European imperialists and the world they sought to conquer. In the 20th century, the geopolitical fault lines shifted, the worldwide struggle became between the capitalist and communist ideologies.

Now, in the post-Cold War era, the defining conflict of our lifetime will be between those who embrace the accelerating change of the world, and those who reject it and try to stop it. They are the traditionalists and the modernists."

4/25/2014 12:24:09 PM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"I've conceded nothing, I just stopped talking to you in favor of disco_stu, who can be kind of a jerk but at least he isn't a total dipshit."


Thanks?

4/25/2014 1:14:28 PM

GrumpyGOP
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I don't bother arguing in atheism vs. religion threads that don't involve you, sweetheart.

4/25/2014 2:50:57 PM

ohmy
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Look, science secularism is so inclusive now that those religious wingbats are out of our universities, not forcing their beliefs on everybody and stuff.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/opinion/sunday/douthat-diversity-and-dishonesty.html?_r=4

lol, sorry disco, i didn't really read the whole thread and i think i conflated yours and dtownral's arguments into one.

so it's not an indictment of science, it's an indictment of the type of thinking that says religion itself (not human nature, or ideologues, etc) is the problem. As Grumpy's argued, something always rises in its place, equally "exclusive".

[Edited on April 25, 2014 at 4:17 PM. Reason : ]

4/25/2014 4:01:23 PM

disco_stu
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What the fuck did that have to do with science?

4/25/2014 4:12:20 PM

moron
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http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2014/04/11/is-2014-year-christian-film-noah-son-of-god/

Lulz, I support this trend. It further trivializes the supposed mysticism of religion, making it more apparent to everyone that the stories of the bible are mostly myths and fables.

4/25/2014 10:09:56 PM

dtownral
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Quote :
"I don't bother arguing in atheism vs. religion threads that don't involve you, sweetheart."


this is where you are having trouble; this is not an athiesm v. religion thread, it is a religion in government vs. no religion in government thread

4/26/2014 8:58:35 AM

Bullet
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http://www.wral.com/fact-check-gop-senate-candidates-make-some-questionable-claims/13589575/

Quote :
"FAITH: Crabtree asked what role faith should play in a political campaign, given that the United States is a country that professes to believe in the separation of church and state. Each candidate said individual faith informs his actions, but Brannon went further.

"This whole fallacy of a separation between church and state is nowhere found in our founding documents," Brannon said. "It was a letter written by (Thomas) Jefferson back to the Danbury convention back in Connecticut saying that the federal government can never make a wall that they can go over. The individual is free to be how they want to be."

Fact check: The letter Brannon referenced was addressed to the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut and read, in part, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

Fact Check RedIt's worth noting that the text of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

And as the folks over at Cornell Law School explain, "Two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion. The establishment clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another. It enforces the 'separation of church and state.' "

While you might not find the words "separation of church and state" in the Constitution, the U.S. Supreme Court has found that government ought to stay out of religion, and vice versa, over the years. This claim gets a red light."

4/26/2014 2:04:56 PM

Dentaldamn
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Well thats embarrassing.

4/26/2014 3:18:07 PM

moron
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It would be great if news reporters could bring this stuff up in real time. How many people even read the follwup...

4/27/2014 7:56:23 AM

dtownral
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this is what the "personhood" movement leads to:
https://news.vice.com/articles/el-salvador-is-imprisoning-women-who-miscarry
El Salvador Is Imprisoning Women Who Miscarry
Quote :
"At least 129 women in El Salvador have been incarcerated between 2000 and 2011 after having miscarriages.

Criminalized by a justice system that does not allow any type of abortion, these women who have been unable to carry their pregnancies to term end up leaving their hospital beds and heading straight to jail — accused of aggravated homicide.

Salvadorian legislators have been unrelenting in their cases against each of these women, who are homemakers, maids, high school and college students, laborers, peasants, waitresses — and the list goes on.

Since the 1998 Penal Code reform in El Salvador, all forms of abortion have been punishable by two to eight years in prison."

4/27/2014 1:42:22 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"this is not an athiesm v. religion thread, it is a religion in government vs. no religion in government thread"

LoL. There is no government without a set of delusional unfounded beliefs. It is merely semantics that we don't call it a religion. There was a time before we all believed in nation states, and there will probably be a time after them.

4/27/2014 1:57:36 PM

dtownral
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4/27/2014 2:06:56 PM

dtownral
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This threat is real, conservatives actually believe this shit and are in positions of power where they can enforce it

Alabama’s chief justice: Buddha didn’t create us so First Amendment only protects Christians
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/02/alabamas-chief-justice-buddha-didnt-create-us-so-first-amendment-only-protects-christians/

5/3/2014 5:25:06 PM

carzak
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That reads like something out of the fucking Onion...

5/3/2014 7:06:19 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"El Salvador Is Imprisoning Women Who Miscarry"


I read the article, but I don't understand. The women miscarried (spontaneous abortion), or underwent illegal abortions?

If the former, how can they imprison women for their bodies doing an act of nature?

Then there is this, which shows it is the former, at least in this case:

Quote :
"In 2004, 18-year-old Cristina Quintanilla suffered a miscarriage in her seventh month of pregnancy.

She lost consciousness at home and upon regaining it she found herself in the hospital, surrounded by police — with one hand cuffed to the frame of her hospital bed.

“I was pregnant; I was with my husband; I was happy. I kept the baby clothes, because I was excited, but I lost my child on October 26, 2004,” Quintanilla, the young mother of two children — who was later convicted of aggravated homicide, leaving her and her family stunned — told VICE News."


What law did she break if her body underwent a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage)???

That is beyond oppressive, that just doesn't make any sense at all...? It's like being jailed because you get a certain medical condition automatically. The article keeps saying abortion has been criminalized, so how come automatic/natural/spontaneous miscarriages are penalized? WTF?

Quote :
"In 2009, with the help of Herrera’s group, a judge agreed to review Quintanilla’s case and reduced her sentence to four years — though she will still be legally marked as a criminal for the rest of her life.

Quintanilla told VICE News, “When I got out of jail I was happy, but now I can’t believe that I missed four years of my son’s life — his first day of school, his first words, his first steps. That is something they can never give me back.”"




I bet there is a special place in hell reserved for those judges and lawmakers.

Quote :
"this is what the "personhood" movement leads to:"


And no, the personhood movement does not lead to that. That's some weird fucking shit, punishing women for something their body automatically does. Abortion is illegal in many countries, but in none of those countries does a woman get punished for having a spontaneous miscarriage.


[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 8:25 PM. Reason : ]

5/3/2014 8:21:20 PM

dtownral
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are you unable to read english? you just read a report about women being punished for miscarriages and you conclude your post by saying that no women get punished for miscarriages? wtf?

If you need some more evidence that's what it leads to, here are some examples how:

A Stillborn Child, A Charge of Murder and the Disputed Case Law on ‘Fetal Harm’
http://www.propublica.org/article/stillborn-child-charge-of-murder-and-disputed-case-law-on-fetal-harm

Mississippi Case Could Lead To Prosecution Of Women Who Have Miscarriages
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/mississippi-miscarriages-supreme-court_n_3327974.html

Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges

Georgia Lawmaker's Anti-Abortion Proposal Could Punish Women for Miscarriages
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/26/georgia-lawmakers-anti-abortion-proposal-punish-women-miscarriages/

Failed Virginia bill on miscarriages reveals ignorance about women's health
http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2013/05/failed-virginia-bill-miscarriages-reveals-ignorance-about-womens-health

Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/buckhalter-mississippi-stillbirth-manslaughter

Utah defines some miscarriages as "criminal homicide"
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/blogs-main/advocates-blog/1568-utah-defines-some-miscarriages-as-qcriminal-homicideq-

etc...

[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 9:09 PM. Reason : maybe if i attach an instagram of a fitness chick?]

5/3/2014 9:03:43 PM

0EPII1
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I think you need to brush up on your reading and reasoning skills.

The personhood movement is strong in many countries, and abortion is illegal in many countries as well, but I have never heard of the personhood movement calling for women who have miscarriages to be punished, and of all the countries where abortion is illegal, I now know of only one country where miscarriages are punished.

Conclusion: saying that the personhood movement leads to miscarriages being punished, that's stupid.

So now you have 2 examples: El Salvador and USA(!!!). Please show me in which other countries of the many countries where abortion is illegal or severely restricted, miscarriages are punished as well or there are people calling for it.


[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 9:12 PM. Reason : ]

5/3/2014 9:10:56 PM

dtownral
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jesus christ dude, try reading that again

5/3/2014 9:12:18 PM

0EPII1
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oh yeah, it is my fault i was typing while you fucking edited and dumped a load of links. do you know how the internet works?

[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 9:14 PM. Reason : 2 examples does not mean "it leads to that"]

5/3/2014 9:13:39 PM

dtownral
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you shouldn't have needed anything except for my first post

Quote :
"[...]but in none of those countries does a woman get punished for having a spontaneous miscarriage.[...]"

Quote :
"[...]So now you have 2 examples[...]"

lol


[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 9:40 PM. Reason : lol]

5/3/2014 9:16:04 PM

0EPII1
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you can't be that illogical/statistically illiterate?

if in a group of 100 people with the same exact beliefs, 2 commit suicide, you can't simply say "those beliefs lead to that".

there are a lot of countries where abortion is illegal or severely restricted (about a 100)... only in one of them are miscarriages punished (El Salvador), and in one some people are calling for it (US). your conclusion is that having the beliefs because of which abortion is illegal (unborn children are people) leads/will ultimately lead to women being punished for something their body does automatically?



if there are more examples, give them, but you can't give 2 examples out of a 100 and based on that say "personhood movement leads to miscarriages being punished".


[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 9:29 PM. Reason : ^ omg, the "none" obviously meant "other than el salvador", are you that thick?]

5/3/2014 9:28:26 PM

dtownral
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5/3/2014 9:29:16 PM

0EPII1
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ok, gotcha, 2 out of a 100 shows a trend.

5/3/2014 9:30:27 PM

dtownral
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El Salvador, Ecuador, Chile, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Malta, Philippines, Dubai, UAE, etc...

you can find the same thing in many countries, but that's missing the point. it's not that we know that it leads to this because of the number of countries or statistics, we know it leads to that because the reasoning they use to apply it to miscarriages.



[Edited on May 3, 2014 at 9:39 PM. Reason : im assuming they just stick with stoning in your country]

5/3/2014 9:34:43 PM

0EPII1
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You have reached synapse's level with regards to personal attacks and stupidity. Is it that difficult for you to be civil and rational?

My country, which country is that? Stoning for what? In Muslim countries abortion is definitely allowed for maternal health reasons, in fact, that's part of Islamic doctrine. And believe it or not, in some Muslim countries elective abortions are allowed before a certain number of months. And no one gets punished for having a spontaneous miscarriage. Educate yourself before spouting your hatred and irrational accusations.

And hey genius, Dubai and UAE are not 2 separate countries.

Anyway, so that list you gave, women are punished for undergoing spontaneous miscarriages in all of them? Thanks for providing more than 2 examples, but I will have to research that list because I know for sure at least 2 are wrong.

Quote :
"we know it leads to that because the reasoning they use to apply it to miscarriages. "


Who is this "they"? There is no unified voice here. Hundreds of millions of people (billions) who believe abortion is murder don't think that women should be punished if their bodies decide to miscarry, it never even crosses their mind. As I said "That's some weird fucking shit" to punish people for something they have no control over.

And what reasoning is that? I believe an unborn baby is a person, and I don't see how someone can jump from that to saying that women should be punished if their bodies decide to miscarry. It makes no sense at all.

OK, I went through the links... so obviously there is some confusion here. All those cases in the US have to do with pregnant women taking drugs. Sure, there is no proof that the drugs caused the miscarriages in question, but taking drugs while pregnant is not a normal thing to do for women (but I would say they need psychological help rather than imprisonment). I was not talking or thinking about such cases. The whole time I was thinking "this guy is telling me that if a normal woman (i.e., not mentally ill and not doing drugs during pregnancy) is sitting at home and suddenly loses her baby, she can be punished in some countries, and some lawmakers in the US are calling for the same". That's obviously not the case here, at least not in the case of the US lawmakers. As for El Salvador, I am still bewildered by the article, as there was no mention of drugs there, just miscarriages.

5/3/2014 10:14:55 PM

dtownral
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No

5/3/2014 10:35:17 PM

Smath74
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Quote :
"A Stillborn Child, A Charge of Murder and the Disputed Case Law on ‘Fetal Harm’
http://www.propublica.org/article/stillborn-child-charge-of-murder-and-disputed-case-law-on-fetal-harm

Mississippi Case Could Lead To Prosecution Of Women Who Have Miscarriages
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/mississippi-miscarriages-supreme-court_n_3327974.html

Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges"

i visited the first three links of this shit you posted (then stopped reading)... they are all about women who abuse drugs while they are pregnant which results in major harm/death to the baby... of course these people should be prosecuted. severely.

[Edited on May 4, 2014 at 2:48 AM. Reason : ]

5/4/2014 2:48:18 AM

dtownral
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They can't prove it caused the miscarriage, that's how it starts. Not all of those are about drugs, and really those aren't important examples anyway.

5/4/2014 8:32:42 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"The Iowa-based Religious Right group The Family Leader held a forum for Republican US Senate candidates on Friday, at which the group’s view that “God instituted government” figured heavily. In fact, nearly every candidate at the debate vowed that if they were to be elected to the Senate they would block federal judicial nominees who do not follow what they perceive as “natural law” or a “biblical view of justice.”
- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/iowa-gop-senate-candidates-vow-block-judges-who-wont-follow-biblical-law#sthash.HuRCNu8H.dpuf"

http://youtu.be/XwoW5FZst3g

this is not a fringe movement, this is a powerful and well-funded movement

5/4/2014 1:40:23 PM

rjrumfel
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Hey smath, remember, its a woman's right if she wants to shoot heroin, snort coke or smoke crack while pregnant. You and me? We're just a couple of slut shamers tryin'a keep a woman down.

5/4/2014 3:19:34 PM

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