2 months in prison;
3 months in prison;
demotion, reprimand and fine;
reduction in rank and pay

for 4 US soldiers accused of torturing two Afghani prisoners (who later turned out to be innocent) to death.

slaps on the wrist for pulverizing bones and tissue (according to the coroner who autopsied them, the only other time she had seen such injuries was when someone had been run over by a truck)

if you want a link to that, search my posts from May/June; i posted about it.

so how do you americans explain this? furthermore, are you with this or against this? what about the big strong military men on here? are they ashamed? (of serving a state that basically condones and does torture)

Quote :

"Afghanistan Criticizes US Courts Over Prisoner Abuse Trials Agencies KABUL, 25 August 2005 — Afghan human rights officials yesterday described as “unbelievably lenient” the sentences US military courts have handed down to American soldiers convicted of abusing two Afghan detainees who later died. One soldier has been sentenced to two months in prison, another to three months. A third was demoted and given a letter of reprimand and a fine. A fourth was given a reduction in rank and pay. “These punishments are a joke. They all should have got 20 years in prison or be sentenced to death,” said Ahmad Shah Midad, a member of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. “A person’s life has been taken. They must be punished properly.” The courts-martial had occurred in the US state of Texas over the past few weeks. The soldiers were charged in relation to the deaths of two Afghans who were in detention at Bagram, the main US base in Afghanistan, in late 2002. One of the two was a 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar. The other was Mullah Habibullah, who was about 30. The Army has publicly acknowledged the two deaths and announced in October that up to 28 US soldiers face possible charges. According to Human Rights Watch, which said it has obtained unreleased Army reports about the deaths, the two men were chained to the ceiling in standing positions, one at the waist and one by the wrists, while their feet remained on the ground. One of them was maimed over a five-day period, dying with his leg muscle tissue destroyed from blows to the knees and lower body, the New York-based rights group has said. An autopsy performed by a medical examiner showed that Dilawar’s legs were so damaged by blows that amputation would have been necessary, according to an Army report dated July 6, 2004. Habibullah died of a pulmonary embolism apparently caused by blood clots formed in his legs from the beatings, according to a June 1, 2004, US military report. A spokesman for the Afghan human rights commission, a state-funded body, said the sentences were “disappointing.” “It’s unbelievably lenient that these soldiers received such light sentences,” said Ahmad Nader Nadery. “We want the United States to justify to us why these people have received such leniency.” A spokesman for President Hamid Karzai said he wasn’t immediately able to comment."

8/26/2005 10:14:14 PM

you should see what they do to pot smokers

8/26/2005 10:19:11 PM

It says something about Afghanistan that its fucking human rights commission wants to sentence people to death.

8/26/2005 10:24:33 PM

wow, just wow

i am speechless

i hope you are run over by a truck tonight

8/26/2005 10:28:43 PM

What do you expect when you send teenagers and those in their very early 20s to be interrogators and "specialists". I mean, you can see how young nationalistic Americans behave on this board, they are racist, evil, self-righteous, and hellbent on killing, like this GrumpyGOP, and several others.

So what's going to happen when you send these arrogant animals? This:

My posts from May:

Warning: Some of the details of the torture are very horrific.

Quote :

"Leaked US Documents Highlight Afghan Prisoners’ Abuse Agencies KABUL, 21 May 2005 — Two detainees in US military custody in Afghanistan in 2002 died after being severely beaten as part of a pattern of abuse by young and badly-trained soldiers, the New York Times reported yesterday quoting from a leaked US Army criminal investigation report. Although the two deaths were reported earlier, the graphic details of their abuse come at a sensitive time in Afghanistan after at least 14 people were killed in anti-US demonstrations this month sparked by an erroneous report that a Qur’an had been desecrated by US investigators at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The White House said that investigations were under way into prisoner abuse by US soldiers in Afghanistan. “Absolutely, this is being investigated thoroughly,” Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, told reporters yesterday. “There are criminal investigations going on right now about what this newspaper article discusses. People are being held to account. People that did the offensive acts in Abu Ghraib are being sentenced and will serve some time for what they did,” Duffy added. The 2,000-page file on incidents at the Bagram detention center near Kabul shows repeated incidents of maltreatment and has echoes of the scandal surrounding the abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “Sometimes the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom, cruelty, or both,” the report said. Over two years later, only seven soldiers have been charged, including four last week, but no one has been convicted in either death. Most of those who could still face legal action have denied wrongdoing, either in statements to investigators or in comments to a reporter. Dilawar, a 22-year-old Afghan taxi driver detained on suspicion of involvement in a rocket attack on a US military base in the southeastern province of Khost received over 100 blows to the legs and an autopsy found that the tissue in his legs had been pulverized. “I’ve seen similar injuries on an individual run over by a bus,” Lt. Col. Elizabeth Rouse, a coroner and a major at the time said in the classified US report, the Times said. By the time Dilawar underwent his final investigations, interrogators believed he was innocent, the report added. Dilawar’s torture and subsequent death in December 2002 echoed that of another Afghan, Habibullah, who died of a heart attack six days earlier. The report said it was likely to have been caused by a blood clot produced by repeated blows to the legs. An investigation into abuse of detainees in US military custody in Afghanistan conducted by Gen. Charles H. Jacobi in 2004 remains classified, although US military spokesmen insist that prisoners at Bagram, the main US detention facility in Afghanistan, are now being treated humanely. "

Quote :

"Despite military prosecutors’ recommendations, the officers involved have yet to be charged. The prosecution dossier from the army’s investigation into Bagram, leaked to the New York Times, deals with the deaths of detainees Dilawar and Habibullah. Both men were seized in late 2002, interrogated, beaten and killed in a hangar used for holding detainees who were being vetted in order to be sent to Guantánamo Bay. The two were chained to the ceilings of their cells for days at a time and beaten on the legs. They had been subjected to a blow known as the “common peroneal strike”, aimed at a point just below the knee and intended to disable. Coroners in the Dilawar case said his legs “had basically been pulverized” and looked as though they had been run over by a bus. "

From http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?

Quote :

"The New York Times May 20, 2005 In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths By TIM GOLDEN Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him. The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face. "Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!" At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. "Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying. Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time. The story of Mr. Dilawar's brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point - and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 - emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army's criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times."

8/26/2005 10:37:46 PM

Quote :

"It says something about Afghanistan that its fucking human rights commission wants to sentence people to death."

There aren't enough rolleyes on the internet to properly respond to that.


That whole article is disgusting.

[Edited on August 26, 2005 at 11:06 PM. Reason : ed]

8/26/2005 11:05:43 PM

No, I mean, I'm glad you guys picked up on how much I wholeheartedly support torture from that other statement of mine.

What, like someone's going to come in here and argue against you that these two guys are bad?

8/26/2005 11:51:27 PM

Quote :

""Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!" "

I'm guessing this wasn't Santa Claus.

8/26/2005 11:53:26 PM

this situation is even funnier if you read about this shit:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/238180_ressam26ww.html

the gov't is appealing a guys sentence

FOR BEING TOO LENIENT

beacuse 22 years is not enough

[Edited on August 27, 2005 at 12:02 AM. Reason : and by "funny" i mean "damning to our international credibility"]

8/27/2005 12:02:29 AM

Quote :

"two Afghani prisoners (who later turned out to be innocent)"

correction: some believed the taxi driver was innocent, not mullah habibullah (the brother of a taliban commander)

8/27/2005 12:31:45 AM

Re a reported exchange “many years ago between the Chief Justice of Texas and an Illinois lawyer visiting that state. 'Why is it,' the visiting lawyer asked, 'that you routinely hang horse thieves in Texas but oftentimes let murderers go free?' 'Because,' replied the Chief Justice, 'there never was a horse that needed stealing!'”
—People v. Skiles, 115 Ill.App. 816, 827, 450 N.E.2d 1212, 1220 (1983).

[Edited on August 27, 2005 at 12:56 AM. Reason : .]

8/27/2005 12:56:21 AM

what if the horse was being tortured by its owner

8/27/2005 1:02:22 AM

Look, this isnt right

But these guys, the soldiers, are dying in the middle east every day

WHY DONT YOU GODDAMN PEOPLE SAY SOMETHING GOOD. Nobody ever mentions anything positive that comes from over there. I've talked with many guys that have gone and come back, and they are all pissed off because shit like this is all you see on the news.

fuck you all

We need to pull out of the middle east so that shit can rot on its own accord

8/27/2005 12:51:24 PM

I didnt see you mention all the people that the taliban regime in Afghanistan needlessly tortured or killed. Or how about the thousands that dictator in Iraq murdered and tortured? HUH?

You probably believe in the same whacked out fundamentalist shit that they do.

8/27/2005 2:38:17 PM

pointing out these interrogations are less evil than former regimes seems a little dumb and short sighted to me.

8/27/2005 3:12:20 PM

can you read? quote me where I said they were less evil

i would just like to see someone comment on somthing other than the negative

8/27/2005 4:08:57 PM

You want to see people commenting on something not negative?

Well, I want to see Americans, and especially Conservatives, Republicans, and most of all people in the military CONDEMN when these things happen.

That happens rarely. More often than not, they stand up for these soldiers, saying something to the effect that oh these soldiers are dying there blah blah blah, like you did.

What Saddam or the Taliban did DOESN'T make this right.

I mean, when there is a terrorist act by a Muslim, suddenly the whole Muslim world is asked to come down to its knees and condemn the act and distance itself from it. And a even when they do, you always hear, but this scholar didn't condemn it, or that one didn't.

Now when Americans do the same shit, in the same vein, we expect Americans to condemn it, and distance itself from it.

AND BTW, you are so dumb that you don't even realize what I am trying to say in this thread.

This thread IS NOT about the animals who tortured the prisoners to death. I am NOT asking anybody to condemn that (although if you did, it would be good for you).

This thread IS about the SLAPS ON THE WRISTS they received. It is about the AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM and the DOUBLE STANDARDS.

I am asking people to condemn the HORRIBLY REPULSIVE sentences these animals received.

But of course, a lot of you are too dumb to even see that (or maybe too evil).

8/27/2005 7:39:27 PM

Quote :

"Well, I want to see Americans, and especially Conservatives, Republicans, and most of all people in the military CONDEMN when these things happen."

Well, I want to see Middle Easterners, and especially Muslims like Saudis, Iranians, and most of all people in the Muslim world CONDEMN when these terrostic acts by Muslims happen.

8/27/2005 9:07:44 PM

would you beat a guy's legs to save the lives of your friends?

8/27/2005 9:59:37 PM

I know nothing of the circumstances involved in this case. You have not provided such information. As such, I find it very difficult to second guess the jury in this case.

Not to mention, I don't believe the military has criminal laws as such. More likely, after serving their few months for dis-honerable discharge, they may be handed over to the civil authorities for prosecution. I believe that is how things are run here in Fayetteville when a soldier guns down someone in a KFC.

8/28/2005 12:21:36 AM

ahaha trap called people evil

8/28/2005 12:59:00 AM

^A soldier gunning someone down at KFC in Fayetteville is a different legal process from a war zone. The soldier is judged under the UCMJ laws, not civil law in a war zone.

8/28/2005 1:22:10 AM

you from fayetteville? i think i remember when that happened at kfc

8/28/2005 2:40:32 AM

Quote :

"Not to mention, I don't believe the military has criminal laws as such. More likely, after serving their few months for dis-honerable discharge, they may be handed over to the civil authorities for prosecution"

dude, the military has laws against EVERYTHING. all the normal shit that a civilian can get in trouble for, plus all sorts of other stuff. if i'm late for work, that's technically a CRIME.

and as far as prosecution under the UCMJ and civilian law, the military and the civilian authorities kinda work that out between themselves. i'm not sure what the legal protocol is.


and what do you want me to say about the incident(s) in question? i don't have any problem at all with heavyhanded but proper interrogation techniques (massive sleep deprivation, etc), but of course this is way over the line, and i don't really understand how they didn't get sentenced more harshly. i think the Army has had a somewhat more "sweep it under the rug" mentality with this sort of thing than the Marines have, but I can't really claim to be unbiased there, of course.

and speaking of unbiased, i would like to hear the other side of this story. call me crazy, but i put limited faith in anything posted by 0EPII1 until i hear both sides.

8/28/2005 2:44:44 AM

Well, criminal laws as such. It is a crime to break "the hosting civilian authority's laws" to be sure. However, I don't know i that constitutes a sizeable prison sentence. Because, in Korea American soldiers are handed over for prosecution after being courts marshalled. So, I would assume something similar is going to happen here. I'm sure the Iraqi government has, by now, passed a law or two against murder, and set up some for of judicial system to handle such crimes.

Of course, if I was right, wouldn't they have been tried in Iraqi instead of Texas?

8/28/2005 9:19:51 AM

Hooray for a free Iraq!

10/22/2005 8:22:34 PM

So, after they serve their prison sentence in Texas for violating US military code, are they going to be extradited to Iraq to be charged with Murder? Or have they fled the jurisdiction at that point?

Because it would be a far larger crime if the US judicial system started trying crimes committed in other countries.

10/23/2005 8:38:30 AM

Let's all pitch in an condemn torture more often, because saying it once isn't enough.

10/23/2005 8:50:34 PM