yes yes we've seen this post lots of times but it's a bit different. Originally I was going to buy a MAzda 3 S Touring until I actually drove the Automatic version with sequential shifting and though fun... it felt more like driving a ford focus than a fun car. The sequential shifter had a delay on it that i didn't like.

So now I'm opening up my options a bit. What are some cars that I should look at that are nice on the outside and inside and are a fun drive. Used or New, though I would like very low mileage if new.

So far I'm still looking at Maxda 3 S Touring but I am also looking at used and new Toyota Celica GT's and GTS's. The downside is that if I went with an automatic, which i probably am for convenience, the power difference is huge.

Little things like mp3 capable cd player and a moonroof/sunroof are essential. But big things like foot room and storage capacity for trips are important too. So basically think Practical, powerful and a head turner.

Thanks for any ideas for cars you might have.

9/17/2005 12:17:26 PM

if you want the best of tiptronic, look at VW.

9/17/2005 12:24:38 PM

DSG >> tiptronic

9/17/2005 12:52:23 PM

Quote :

"it felt more like driving a ford focus than a fun car"

Have you ever driven a focus? They're pretty tossable. My friend has a hatch that's hella fun.

9/17/2005 12:57:46 PM

Buy my Acura Tsx.

9/17/2005 1:15:15 PM

The sound of the focus and the sheer amount of recalls on them nixed them. over 15 recalls in 3 years? hehe fuck that.

I just started looking at the TC Scion. Gonna go test drive one soon. It comes standard with an mp3 capable cd player, very cool sunroof with rear sunroof too, 170hp etc.

9/17/2005 1:21:48 PM

I test drove a VW Jetta VR6 with triptronic that was hella fun.

9/17/2005 1:26:55 PM

or you could not buy a brand new car and open up a hell of a lot more options, i.e. get more for your money

[Edited on September 17, 2005 at 3:37 PM. Reason : oops, just read the topic...i'll post suggestions shortly]

9/17/2005 3:37:34 PM

i used tiptronic as a layman's term, smarty pants

9/17/2005 3:53:06 PM

VW's, though nice have horrid repair bills. Of course that's offset by them rarely breaking down. I looked and the color's and that would stop me alone.

I'm going after a new car because I want a NEW car. Not something someone has been using. Few months down the road i find out they were drag racing and there is under belly damage etc. If I'm going to be spending this much... it's going to be new.

I've started to take a real liking into the TC Scion's.

9/17/2005 4:32:51 PM

let him go folks, he fixed his own problem

9/17/2005 6:42:10 PM

Quote :

"I just started looking at the TC Scion. Gonna go test drive one soon. "

The tC was on my short list when I got a car this Summer. It's a decent daily driver, and you get a lot of bells and whistles for the price. After a round of test drives, I decided on a manual tranny Mazda3 5-door, but it was a personal preference thing.

9/17/2005 7:42:07 PM

you wont regret a manual

9/18/2005 12:11:13 AM

Quote :

"VW's, though nice have horrid repair bills. Of course that's offset by them rarely breaking down. I looked and the color's and that would stop me alone. "

ITS CALLED A FUCKING WARRANTY YOU IDIOT.

AND DO YOU NOT REALIZE YOU CAN GET CARS PAINTED?

9/18/2005 9:01:10 AM

Yeah but honestly Tyler, do you want to buy a car that you're pretty sure is going to break on you, even if it does have a warranty?




I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.

9/18/2005 9:24:58 AM

Who wants to buy a new car and then take it for a full repaint? If you can afford a factory quality repaint with a color change on top of the cost of the new car, you could easily be shopping for a new car one class up.

9/18/2005 10:18:14 AM

Quote :

" ITS CALLED A FUCKING WARRANTY YOU IDIOT. AND DO YOU NOT REALIZE YOU CAN GET CARS PAINTED?"

Warranty's are great! But taking the car in repeatedly is not. Look at it from my perspective. When the warranty runs out what am I looking at for repair bill wise? What's the average cost to maintain a Volkswagon vehicle? It's about 3 times that of a normal car. We can fight forever about that

Now paint the car? Why the fuck would i paint the car when I'm buying it new? They don't have a very broad color selection. It's like 5 colors and that's it, with no option for any other colors. They don't even have half the base colors

Lets see here... Raige 5 ....Noen 0. NEXT! On to more important things.

My roomate is a mechanic that has been working on all makes and models for 4 years. He knows what comes in more and what has problems. He also knows which are cheaper fixes and what is more dependable. I trust his opinion because everytime something has gone wrong with my or any of my friends/family's car he's been able to fix it or tell us what we need to do (didn't have tools for it).

When I look for a car I look for the following:

1) Known dependability
2) Outside critical reviews. What CAN they find wrong with it
3) Average cost of repairs yearly
4) Gas Mileage
5) Power, design, look, feel of the drive... etc

Toyota Celica's, Mazda 3's, tC Scion's, all have rave reviews and even the critics can't find much wrong. That's the basis of my decisions. Add to this the fact that these cars are extremely customizable to what I like. The tC Scion above all the rest

Jesus Christ look at their website and build your own Scion. That's the most bad ass configuration utility I've ever seen. http://www.scion.com.

You add it, you see it! You can spin the car around, open doors, change the color, change the stick knob, change the pedals, add effects inside the car. It's awesome. And coming from Toyota, using a Camry engine I'm confident that it will last me a long time.

Every toyota I've owned has worked and worked and never died on me. I have 159,000 miles on my current car and it's still going strong. 0 problems. No oil leaks, no aging problems. It's an awesome car.

I watch as my friends who bought a Ford Focus go back and again and again to the repair shop even under warranty. Heat monitor switch for the coolant goes bad, seatbelts are recalls, the seats themselves are recalled, trunk latch recalled, 3 parts in the engine recalled...

Why? because the car wasn't made well. I haven't seen a solid ford model in 10 years. Same goes for Chevy. I give Chevy props because of the Geo Storms. cheap cars but god damn mine wouldn't die. But that was back in 1990 anyway.

So you see I have my reasons for that type of car that I will buy. All I'm asking is for recommendations. "Hey check this out". And I will. The VX JEtta's I DID check out but there were too many things against it and I said why I didn't like it.

I do appreciate the cars you've mentioned for me to check out so far!

9/18/2005 11:54:33 AM

Seriously, you can run a Camry to 160k miles or more with nothing more than routine maintenance. I've done it twice.

9/18/2005 12:16:31 PM

That's why the Scion has me interested. It's runnning on a Camry engine .

9/18/2005 2:33:09 PM

Yeah, the tC seems pretty nice for a balance between dependability and style without being way too rice.

9/18/2005 3:41:58 PM

painting a new car would be pretty fucking stupid

gg noen

9/18/2005 4:01:37 PM

To add to that warrenties aren't good forever.

9/18/2005 4:03:44 PM

You guys are idiots who think VWs are not reliable. I would rate them as one the most reliable cars other than the corrado and a few other models. I know people with 300k+ on there VWs with no problems, esp the diesels. 90% of the people on this board can't even change their own oil, so keep that in mind when you take their opinions.

And the ownership is not 3x as much as a normal car. If you owned one you would know that. They are also VERY simple to work on. I just bought a Audi (VW) and love it and looking at the service records there wasnt any real problems, other than wear items.

9/18/2005 4:11:57 PM

i wouldn't want to deal with passat ball joint shenanigans

9/18/2005 4:23:39 PM

Jetta TDI - although the gasoline engines have questionable reliability, the diesels are far more robust, require less maintenance (oil changes every 10k miles), and get 50MPG. however there's a tradeoff as it's a bit on the weak side with 100hp, but the 177 ftlbs of torque help offset that and give you good pickup.

9/18/2005 4:35:40 PM

First off I KNOW... you did not just say VW's are easy to work on. I'm not even going to go there. Ask any normal mechanic what cars they hate the most. VW and Audi.

As far as maintanance I'd have to dissagree with you. IF you mean the car RUNS... that's one thing but if you mean to keep it up to speed and in tip top shape it's 2-3 times more. VW parts are on average 2-3 times more expensive. Take for instance belts. Go to your local auto zone and look at the price difference. Now go check a door latch, or a head gasket. These are just random parts off the top of my head. Also take into account labor. Seriously you walk into a normal shop and they will charge you more because usually VW put parts in crazy ass places or require a special tool. I can elaborate if you want.

I'm not saying VW's are bad cars, but they cost more to own. However... I don't know about diesels at all. I'll stand down on that one. You might be right.

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 4:52 PM. Reason : !]

9/18/2005 4:51:03 PM

Wow. I have worked on multiple golfs and jettas bud. But you are just talking out your ass.

How can you disagree when you know almost nothing about VWs or cars in general? VW part prices are dirt cheap compared to nissan, toyota, honda. Ive boughten parts for all, and in general VW parts are cheaper.

Both 2000 Toyota vs VW

Radiator:
http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/zygmunt/quote.jsp?partner=zygmunt&year=2000&product=G1000-121397&application=000546960&clientid=www.bimmerparts.com&cookieid=1M810L9N31M810LB7H&baseurl=http://www.bimmerparts.com/

http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/zygmunt/wizard.jsp?partner=zygmunt&clientid=www.bimmerparts.com&baseurl=http://www.bimmerparts.com/&cookieid=1M810L9N31M810P1W0&year=2000&make=VW&model=JET-GLS-002&category=All&part=Radiator

Front Rotors:
http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/zygmunt/quote.jsp?partner=zygmunt&year=2000&product=N1000-61524&application=000470887&clientid=www.bimmerparts.com&cookieid=1M810L9N31M810P1W0&baseurl=http://www.bimmerparts.com/

http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/zygmunt/quote.jsp?partner=zygmunt&year=2000&product=N1000-90058&application=000423780&clientid=www.bimmerparts.com&cookieid=1M810L9N31M810UH22&baseurl=http://www.bimmerparts.com/

9/18/2005 5:15:26 PM

I'd go for the toyota. We have a 1998 Sienna with ~310k miles on it, still going strong.

^ He's not going to be installing those parts himself. So in the long run it could still be more expensive for him to have a VW "serviced" at the dealer. Although I doubt the difference is going to be all that big anyways. The diesel would be a good idea. lol, didn't nick have that old ass diesel with 700k miles or something?

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 5:38 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2005 5:25:12 PM

If I were in your shoes, these are the new cars I would consider:

Acura RSX
Civic Si (200 hp 2006 model)
Mazda 3
Mazda 6
Mitsu Eclipse
Mitsu Lancer Ralliart
Nissa Sentra SE-R
Scion tC
Subaru Impreza
Subaru Legacy
Toyota Celica
Toyota Matrix XRS (Celica engine)

Mini Cooper S
Saab 9-2X
VW Golf (TDI, GTI)
VW Jetta (TDI, GLI)

(no American cars)

9/18/2005 6:03:30 PM

yea, nick diesel had over half a million miles and we drove it to DC. haha

9/18/2005 6:44:05 PM

From my experience with VW's, mostly Jettas, and old school Vanagans, the parts are more expensive and the labor is INSANE. I'm not saying they aren't good cars. The ones I've worked with, putting in a new radiator in a Jetta... that's some fucking hard shit. Hell changing out the god damn alternator... what masochist bastard designed this car.

I think that VW's are designed for performance. I think Toyota are designed for performance as well maintainance. That's just my opinion.

9/18/2005 7:52:16 PM

An automatic with a high revving engine like a Celica GT-S is completely pointless.

I find Jetta's cramped. The Mazda 3 had much more space in the back.

9/18/2005 8:15:34 PM

What about a used STi, they're sitting at around 24-25 right now? Don't subaru's have fairly good maintenance records?

9/18/2005 8:50:25 PM

sorry if you think replacing a radiator is a bitch, you shouldn't be working on cars.

9/18/2005 9:51:36 PM

I'm not even going to bother getting into the fact you would pass on a car because you can't get some retarded fucking paint color on it.

Or the fact that being able to customize the PEDALS from the factory is considered a plus in your book.

Nor that when referring to any modern VW, we are only talking about the TDI's, because that's already been covered.

The TC is a great car. But the reasons you specify for looking for a car, and the reasons you are showing us to find your car are completely fucking opposite.

It's OBVIOUS you are never going to even look under the hood, much less do any work on the thing yourself, so ANY vehicle is going to run you out the ass after the warranty is up.

And you quite plainly care MUCH more about the fucking cosmetic hoity toity shit much more than the ride quality, handling, braking or safety of the car. So the Scion makes perfect sense.

You can get a car with a bajillion knick knacks what will satisfy your nerdosity for a few years, which is what you really want.

I'm not knocking that, but you need to realize that all you are looking for is a cheap econobox with some gadgets, not a good car.

9/19/2005 2:47:04 AM

First off the tC Scion as well as the Mazda 3 S Touring and Toyota Celica all have great reviews from dozens of auto magazines.

So you think it's stupid I don't want a NEW car because of the color. Well we differ in that opinion then. If I'm spending $20,000 and want a purple car... god dammit I'm gonna have a purple fucking car. Now it's not that I want a purple car... but for $20,000... you better make it purple.

When I look for a car I want a lot of things. I want it to have overall good reviews by critics and normal drivers. I also want the car to look very nice and perform well. Customization is important but the reason I stated that about the tC Scion is because you CAN do it before you buy the car. Not that I would pay $79 for alloy pedals. I also want great gas mileage (30+), and a solid repair expectation with a trustworthy engine. Toyota's are known for their great engines, dependability and reasonable repair. That's one of the biggest reasons I'm looking at that.

You're damn right I care about cosmetic hoity toity shit. I do minor repairs on my car, normal belts, battery, alternator, spark plugs, etc. The minor things. But for major repairs like replacing gaskets in hard to reach places, timing belt, shocks, etc... I'll leave those to people who have done it before. Those things aren't worth the mistakes to me especially when my roommate is a mechanic. Sure I COULD do them... but I'd rather someone who's down them countless time before and knows the little in's and outs do them.

Noen it's obvious you and I disagree and of course that makes me stupid... but honest if I wanted your opinion about my decisions and why i want what I do I'd ask you for it. This whole thread is about recommending good cars for around $20,000. What have you done in this post? What do you do in every post? Flame someone because you're too stupid to answer the damn question.

So how about you answer the question. Then we'll see if you can flame. Give me reasons why i should buy the car that match my reasoning.

9/19/2005 8:30:50 AM

Quote :

"you need to realize that all you are looking for is a cheap econobox with some gadgets, not a good car. "

9/19/2005 10:18:44 AM

heh an econobox is a geo metro.

If your idea of a "good car" has Ford in the name... don't even bother posting here.

9/19/2005 11:12:37 AM

If you got a manual, the Celica GT-S would be pretty fun. As would an RSX-S or mazda 3 I'd imagine. A golf or jetta tdi would be REALLY good for fuel economy purposes and would probably last quite a while with minimal maintenance. Once again, I'd get a manual because usually helps increase your fuel economy anyways.

Quote :

"The sequential shifter had a delay on it that i didn't like."

That's because it's not a sequential shifter. It's an automatic transmission that allows the driver to manually select what gear it's in. It's really not much different than going 1,2,D,Overdrive, lol. It's still an auto, it's not going to magically become a faster shifting manual or true sequential transmission. IMO it's a pointless feature unless you only have one leg. Just buy a manual.

Quote :

"This whole thread is about recommending good cars for around $20,000. What have you done in this post? What do you do in every post? Flame someone because you're too stupid to answer the damn question."

I think they're just saying that you asked for opinions and then shot them all down. It looks like you've already decided and you just wanted people to support your decision. The tC isn't going to be a shitty or unreliable car, if you really like it that much, get it. It is fairly average though, doesn't do anything well, doesn't do anything poorly really. I'm not a big fan of the ricer image scion's have (I guess my car has a ricer image but at least it's quick), but whatever.

I'd still recommend driving some other cars and at least seeing if you like the other ones better. I would seriously reconsider the auto thing. I mean, you can say, "I don't know how to drive a manual," but nobody in here was born with that ability. It really isn't that hard dude.

Quote :

"I think that VW's are designed for performance. I think Toyota are designed for performance as well maintainance."

Not really...

Quote :

"If your idea of a "good car" has Ford in the name... don't even bother posting here."

Uh, I didn't see anyone mention a Ford.


You need to look at this list:

Quote :

"Acura RSX Civic Si (200 hp 2006 model) Mazda 3 Mazda 6 Mitsu Eclipse Mitsu Lancer Ralliart Nissa Sentra SE-R Scion tC Subaru Impreza Subaru Legacy Toyota Celica Toyota Matrix XRS (Celica engine) Mini Cooper S Saab 9-2X VW Golf (TDI, GTI) VW Jetta (TDI, GLI)"

This is the answer to your question. I'd really consider that new civic SI. Seeing as it's going to have K20a2 pwr, that car should be a lot of fun. Drive all of those cars at carmax or dealers. Once you've found the car you like the most, buy it.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to test drive all of the cars you're considering. They are all in a similar category (Fairly cheap, 4-cyl, FWD) but are worlds apart in many respects.

[Edited on September 19, 2005 at 11:28 AM. Reason : ]

9/19/2005 11:17:50 AM

hmmm i see your point Saab. I meant it to explain why i wasn't interested on the cars i shot down. I'll check out the civic. Thanks!

Raige.

9/19/2005 3:41:09 PM

the only way you're going to find an automatic that doesn't suck will be if you buy a new volkswagen with a DSG, which isn't even worth mentioning since its out of your price range

9/19/2005 5:46:31 PM

Quote :

"I'm going after a new car because I want a NEW car. Not something someone has been using. Few months down the road i find out they were drag racing and there is under belly damage etc. If I'm going to be spending this much... it's going to be new. "

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU STATE IN THE THREAD YOU ARE LOOKING FOR NEW AND USED CARS THEN?

I'm calling you STUPID, because you are being STUPID. Not because we disagree. I disagree with a lot of highly intelligent people about different things.

You obviously only want a NEW car, which is a STUPID financial decision for a 1000 reasons.

You have fucking ignored nearly every vehicle suggestion in the thread because of SUBJECTIVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. You TALK about wanting vehicles that are recommended and endorsed by publications and reputable sources, then you fucking ignore them to go with your own personal likes.

Quote :

"Acura RSX Civic Si (200 hp 2006 model) Mazda 3 Mazda 6 Mitsu Eclipse Mitsu Lancer Ralliart Nissa Sentra SE-R Scion tC Subaru Impreza Subaru Legacy Toyota Celica Toyota Matrix XRS (Celica engine) Mini Cooper S Saab 9-2X VW Golf (TDI, GTI) VW Jetta (TDI, GLI)"

You can add the Pontiac G6 and Ford SVT Focus as US cars to look at. The G6 is brand new, so the reliability data isn't there yet, but you get a LOT for your money on that car, and it's easy to work on and parts will be cheap. The SVT Focus is a TOP CONSUMER REPORTS PICK and is just an all around great car and a HELACIOUS DEAL (Ford loses ~1500 dollars per focus is sells, at least according to two of their designers)

9/19/2005 7:08:50 PM

Got a great used, 2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V with like 35,000 miles on her, for way less that $20,000.

I def would recommend it, but the new ones look gay.

9/19/2005 8:04:50 PM

I wanted to know about New and Used cars for around $20,000. My preference is NEW however, if the odd chance comes up that a really good deal shows up then fine.

Not interested in a ford. Not gonna argue this point. Mustang, Focus, etc etc. All of them, though fun to drive, have shitty records on repairs etc. Just not gonna argue it.

It's my fucking post and if I want to explain why i don't want a certain car when someone posts it then I will. Prancing around saying "You're stupid because... because.. you're stupid!" is real smart Noen.

Lemme go throught he list here

Acura RSX, bit out of my price range new. In used... an option but I'd rather go for new.
Civic SI (just now starting to look. Long day at work)
Mazda 3 - Looked at the S Touring edition. Nice but feels like im sitting on a box compared to my current car. Awkward feel and the Automatic transmission that lets you manually shift isn't very good. It takes 2-3 seconds for it to respond. Ranked way up there in multiple reviews.
Mazda 6 - out of my $20k range. Those are $24k+. Sure i could go used, but again...
Mitsubilish Eclipse - Horrible repair record. Fun drive if the more powerful engine. Cramped headspace for tall people like me.
Mitsubish Lancer - Will look
Nissan Sentra SE-R - will look
Scion tC - Very interested. TRying to get a test drive on an automatic at the moment.
Subaru Impreza - nice ill check it out
Subaru Legacy - Not my style of car.
Toyota Celica - hard to find what i want now.
Toyota Matrix - not my type.

9/19/2005 9:01:23 PM

Because there is really a big difference between a new car and a 1 or 2 year old one

Even if you "rag" a car for two years, it's not going to be in any kind of bad shape longterm. Buying new is stupid no matter how you look at it, financially speaking.

9/19/2005 9:21:50 PM

I def. you wanting to buy a new car, but if you are goin to get any kind of an SE-R i would go with a 02-03, the new body styles IMO look gay.

Again ive got a 03, silver, in great mechanical cond. Any you def would have money left over for something else, anyways if u wanna check it out. I'd be more than happy to show you.

9/19/2005 11:41:49 PM

You can't get an automatic SE-R, correct me if I'm wrong. You could get an automatic Lancer Ralliart though.

9/20/2005 12:02:37 AM

Ray you could give me a blowjob.

9/20/2005 12:52:27 AM

yo can get an SE-R with an automatic or a 5-speed (165hp stock), or the SE-R Spec V that only comes with a 6-speed manual (175hp). thats what i have. Even tho they both use the QR25DE motor, the spec-v has a slightly different exhaust and some different fuel mapping that explaines the extra 10hp. Also the Spec v has a different interior, nissan says its "skyline insprired racing seat", but more or less its just a better bucket seat with nicer fabric.

Pretty much everyone that rides in my car is impressed, and cant believe it a sentra. I def recommend it, too bad i need a truck and kinda have to get rid of it.

9/20/2005 11:38:45 AM

Just to let everyone know thanks for all the input. I checked out all the cars and pending test drives is how I'll make my decision. I checked out the subaru's but the style of the car and the interior isn't to my liking in the range I can afford . (I so want a Subaru WRX STI lol).

As far as me wanting a new car, yes that is a preference but the fact remains I want it without wear and ALL used cars have that to some degree. Sure I completely agree that I might be able to find a used car that would suit my needs, but I want a lot of features that just aren't easily found.

Plus haven't you ever WANTED a new car? Something new? new car smell, new car feel... the first person to REALLY gun it? It might be superficial and to some stupid (Noen). But that's the advantage of making good money. I don't have to settle .

Thanks a ton guys!

9/20/2005 12:51:33 PM