I haven't seen or heard any confirmation that this is an "official" policy, and haven't seen enough cases to offer any totally conclusive evidence, but from what it looks like to me, male students wash out of the school i'm in on their 3rd failure, while female students get a 4th chance.

i know of one female student who washed out on her 4th failure, and another female student who has failed 3 tests and is still here. I DON'T personally know of any males who've failed 3 tests, but from what other people have told me, the males they've known who washed out were given the boot after their 3rd failure.

9/26/2005 5:32:23 PM

I dunno duke... anyone failing a test 3 times kinda scares me in a 40+ mil plane... more details?

9/26/2005 6:15:50 PM

the military has lots of relaxed standards for females

9/26/2005 6:17:11 PM

oh, i'm not saying that dudes should get a 4th chance.

and shit, there are only 6 tests.

now granted, this is the first in a series of schools...if you're borderline here, i guess they figure that you'll wash out down the road, and they'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

but there are plenty of people who are willing and capable of doing the job if you can't pass these relatively straightforward tests...and if you are pursuing a chance to hold tens of millions of dollars, countless lives, and the execution of American foreign policy in your hands, I don't see much reason to let too much slide.


and i think that it's fucked up if there is a double standard here.

9/26/2005 6:51:06 PM

what kind of tests are these

9/26/2005 6:55:16 PM

I doubt you have anything to worry about

9/26/2005 7:44:53 PM

^^^^well, in the Marines, there is pretty strong evidence that the physical fitness test is biased towards females (which helps promotions somewhat, esp in the lower enlisted ranks). different physical events in training are modified for females all the time (steps/ramps to help them over obstacles on the obstacle course, for example). then there are things that happen at the individual level, like how we used to spread-load the gear of some females on hikes, and certainly never give them heavy stuff to carry (like machine guns). or at OCS (officer boot camp), my observation was that the female DIs noticeably less demanding (mostly because the females, on the whole, didn't take to that environment as quickly, and they spent more time on basic stuff than worrying about any details).

but all of that stuff is to account for gender differences. whether or not those things are right is somewhat of a seperate argument.

this policy, if it does exist like i think it does, smacks of "we need to retain X percentage of females" or something.


^^2 aerodynamics tests, 1 weather, 1 physiology, 1 flight rules and regulations, 1 engines

^i have nothing to worry about. i have a 94 average right now. i just think it's wrong.

9/26/2005 8:12:35 PM

so when do you get to fly one of them biatches?

9/26/2005 8:24:03 PM

Not the most relevant quote, but I just had to throw a little Great Santini in there.

Quote :

""Are you ever afraid when you fly?" "That's a good question. Yeah. I'm always a little afraid when I fly. That's what makes me so damn good. I've seen pilots who weren't afraid of anything, who would forget about checking their instruments, who flew by instinct as though they were immortal. I've pissed on the graves of those poor bastards too. The pilot who isn't a little bit afraid always screws up and when you screw up bad in a jet, you get a corporal playing taps at the expense of the government." — Lieutenant Colonel Bull Meecham, USMC, in Pat Conroy's book, 'The Great Santini.' "

9/26/2005 8:28:26 PM

What are you flying, Duke?

9/26/2005 9:56:15 PM

duke, while yes, I think it'd be wrong if there were in fact a double standard, we can't really say much about it if we don't really know if there is actually a double standard.

I mean, thats like saying "hey, it might be true that so and so is a murderer. If thats the case, then so and so is a horrible person!" OK, great, most people agree that murder is a bad thing, and that being a murderer is not a great thing. so what? we can't really draw any conclusions about this person based on this little bit of info.

and so it is about the attrition policy in military flight school.

9/26/2005 10:21:56 PM

^well, i'm somewhat confident that there IS a double standard. that's what all indications are, in my view. it may be official policy, it may be higher saying "we need X percentage of these jobs to be filled by females. accomplish this how you see fit" (the latter is generally how the military works, and is probably more likely).

i just haven't seen ENOUGH cases to make a rock-solid conclusion, so i offered that as a caveat.

Quote :

"so when do you get to fly one of them biatches?"

Quote :

"What are you flying, Duke? "

I'm not a pilot. I had a pilot slot, then got kind of a raw deal and ended up as a navigator/weapons officer. Basically, i'll learn to do everything that a pilot does except for fly the airplane and pull the trigger (i.e., the cool parts of the job ). that's a long story for another day, though.

i'm trying to switch back to pilot, but it's a long shot bordering on impossibility. should know something on friday. what will most likely happen is that i won't get switched, but will put in for a pilot switch again in a few years after my first tour riding bitch. the odds aren't good then, either, but they're substantially better. if i don't get it then, i'll probably get out and try to get a spot flying in the Guard. if i don't get that, i guess i'm just shit outta luck, and i'll go do something to pay the bills like everyone else.

but to answer your question, i will be riding around in either an F-18 or an EA-6b Prowler...about a 50/50 shot of each, although i'm gonna go for F-18s because i don't feel like being irradiated all day by an electronic warfare airplane (and you have a greater than 50% chance of getting the airplane you want, because some people will want the other one).

9/27/2005 2:16:40 AM

since the EA-6Bs are 4 seaters, do they make the guys in the back go through the same flight school shit you go through?

9/27/2005 5:42:19 PM

i am the guy in the back

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 5:44 PM. Reason : unless i get unexpected good news on friday. if not, i'll do my first tour and try to switch again]

9/27/2005 5:43:58 PM

damn, what's it take to actually have a strong chance of being a pilot these days??

9/27/2005 5:46:03 PM

it's not too hard to get picked up as a pilot. i just got unlucky on something.

well, let me rephrase that...it's not too hard, but there are a million things that can shoot your dream down in flames, and you have no control over lots of them. some of it is being in the right place at the right time.

i mean, the attrition rate between saying "sign me up, i wanna be a military pilot" and getting wings has gotta be OVERWHELMINGLY large, but if you're physically qualified and you apply yourself in all the schools, you're well on your way.

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 5:55 PM. Reason : asdfasdfd]

9/27/2005 5:53:04 PM

I see... off topic, which kind of laser eye fixing thing did you have done?

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 5:54 PM. Reason : you know what i mean lol]

9/27/2005 5:54:38 PM

PRK. at the time, LASIK was a permanent DQ. i don't know about now. they've relaxed the vision standards some more too, i think.

my vision was actually fine (20/30). i didn't even wear glasses or contacts. i basically spent $3500 to get the physical dimensions of my eyeballs to look like the military wanted for me to be a pilot, and then they were like "yeah, uhh, we need navigators really badly. you're gonna ride in the back." i see 20/15 now, but that's not really that big of a deal.

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 5:58 PM. Reason : asdfasdf]

9/27/2005 5:56:00 PM

cool, my roommates dad had one of the procedures done, i'm not sure which one... but he was amazed at the difference and ended up with like 20/15 vision....anyways

9/27/2005 5:57:11 PM

well, another girl failed her 4th test today...let's see what happens. she damned well better get kicked out. she's failed 4 out of 5 tests so far (i mean, she's passed them on retakes after remediation, but she's been rolled back several classes now, and it already one failure past when a guy would've been kicked out of aviation).

10/4/2005 2:09:45 PM