Quote :

"The soldiers quoted in the report expressed much confusion about what types of treatment were allowed under the Geneva Conventions, which bar mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilian detainees. They said senior officers provided little guidance."

Quote :

"The soldiers said the abuse took place almost daily and often came under orders. Anything short of causing an inmate’s death was allowed, they said."

Quote :

"“As long as no PUCs came up dead, it happened,” he said. “We kept it to broken arms and legs.”"

hmmm... well i have this prison duty today... and my seniors dun tell me about what treatment is a-ok for these ragheads, so let's see... i guess i could break a few arms and legs... that is not so bad, is it... i mean, i ain't killin' him, am i?

FUCKING REDNECKS. I HOPE ALL SUCH SOLDIERS DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH.

That's what happens when you send 18-22 year olds from one of the most culturally ignorant countries who have barely passed high school to A WAR ZONE ON AN ALIEN CONTINENT.
*********************************************************************************

The new face of US liberty, freedom, and democracy mongering...

‘US Soldiers Took Their Frustrations Out on Iraqis’
Peter James Spielmann, Associated Press

Quote :

"NEW YORK, 25 September 2005 — Soldiers in the US Army’s elite 82nd Airborne Division vented their frustration by systematically torturing Iraqi detainees from 2003 into 2004, hitting them with baseball bats and dousing them with chemicals, a US rights group alleges in a new report. The Human Rights Watch report, issued Friday, was compiled from interviews with a captain and two sergeants who served in a battalion of the 82nd Airborne that was stationed at a military base called Mercury near Fallujah. The soldiers said the abuse took place almost daily and often came under orders. Anything short of causing an inmate’s death was allowed, they said. The residents of Fallujah, 65 km west of Baghdad, nicknamed soldiers at the nearby base “the Murderous Maniacs,” New York-based Human Rights Watch said. “The soldiers considered this name a badge of honor.” It said soldiers in the 82nd Airborne deprived detainees of sleep, food and water, subjected them to extreme heat and cold, stacked prisoners in human pyramids, kicked them in the face, and put chemicals on exposed skin and eyes. One of the sergeants allegedly told the group that military intelligence personnel, eager for information, often instructed soldiers to “smoke” detainees — called Persons Under Control or PUCs — during questioning, the report said. “Smoking” prisoners meant physically abusing them until they lost consciousness. But the motive was not always to gain intelligence, one sergeant was quoted as saying. “Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was sport,” he reportedly said. “One day (another sergeant) shows up and tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy’s leg with a mini-Louisville Slugger, a metal bat.” The soldier said anything short of death was acceptable. “As long as no PUCs came up dead, it happened,” he said. “We kept it to broken arms and legs.” The timing of some of the alleged tortures coincided with the prisoner abuse by American forces at Abu Ghraib near Baghdad in 2003. “These soldiers’ firsthand accounts provide further evidence contradicting claims that abuse of detainees by US forces was isolated or spontaneous,” the report said. The US military has opened 400 investigations of prisoner abuse allegations, and 230 soldiers have been court-martialed or faced nonjudicial punishment or other administrative action. The soldiers quoted in the report expressed much confusion about what types of treatment were allowed under the Geneva Conventions, which bar mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilian detainees. They said senior officers provided little guidance. Defense Department spokesman Lt. Col. John Skinner criticized the report as a predictable effort to try to “advance an agenda through the use of distortions and errors in fact.” (FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU) Skinner said the military has investigated all credible allegations of detainee abuse and “looked at all aspects of detention operations under a microscope.”"

[Edited on October 1, 2005 at 5:53 PM. Reason : ]

10/1/2005 5:52:01 PM

sounds like the senior officers just dont crack down on these kids enough. dunno, we need some real military perspective here.

10/1/2005 6:17:00 PM

tit-for-tat motherfucker

i love how you act like these "detainees" are fucking boy scouts picked up while helping little old ladies cross the street.

fuck you.

10/1/2005 7:02:31 PM

that's expected from an asshole such as you, who has no concept about the rule of law, or the fact that people are innocent until proven guilty (and quite a few tortured and murdered detainees have turned out to be innocent).

bye ANNA.

10/1/2005 7:13:46 PM

i'll cry myself to sleep tonight, i'm sure.

10/1/2005 7:21:27 PM

only until the hitman arrives.

10/1/2005 7:24:39 PM

right.

oh btw, remind us again what the country you're in thinks about the rule of law, or innocent until proven guilty. remind us again what the country you were born in thinks about the rule of law, or innocent until proven guilty. remind us again what the countries between the two and bordering them think about the rule of law, or innocent until proven guilty.

you've got a lot of room to talk.

[Edited on October 1, 2005 at 7:37 PM. Reason : *]

10/1/2005 7:25:24 PM

but im sure you were "outraged" by the pictures of US captives being interviewed on TV, huh?

im just tired of people acting like both sides dont do nasty, unnecessary stuff.

10/1/2005 7:33:30 PM

Yeah, those shit heads were definitely all about your fucking conventions when they were sawing other men's heads off with a dull knife. You act like a fucking savage and we'll deal with you like one. I don't give a damn. The sooner we put you and your entire kind Trap to the sword, the better. You support an ignorant society that allows itself to be ruled by an archaic religion.

10/1/2005 9:20:12 PM

Quote :

"You support an ignorant society that allows itself to be ruled by an archaic religion."

10/2/2005 8:03:57 AM

Quote :

"Associated Press"

OMFG LIBERAL BIAS!!!1

10/2/2005 8:16:34 AM

for some reason, the thought of a tortured terrorist doesn't bring a tear to my eye.

10/2/2005 10:18:02 AM

it would if you were a terrorist

10/2/2005 10:38:02 AM

does this really surprise anyone though? not that we hadnt seen these stories before, but really...

the average american is both stupid and a savage.

10/2/2005 10:54:56 AM

and we're proud of it too

10/2/2005 10:58:27 AM

^^ yeah and what they're doing isn't stupid and savage.

it's "noble" and shit.

fuck you.

10/2/2005 11:06:33 AM

breaking arms and legs is noble?

10/2/2005 11:11:34 AM

an eye for and eye makes the whole world blind

10/2/2005 11:25:55 AM

^^ who said it was?

the point is everyone disregards the fucking savagery on the otherside and then goes apeshit when it happens on this side.

fuck all of you.

10/2/2005 11:37:03 AM

Yeah, fuck all you people holding us to higher standards than terrorists

10/2/2005 6:23:49 PM

Quote :

"You support an ignorant society that allows itself to be ruled by an archaic religion."

quote of the year

10/2/2005 7:17:26 PM

OH BOO HOO

Go ask the innocent people killed on 9/11 about how they feel about this. Oh wait, you cant b/c these men who you are standing up for killed them.

Traitors.

10/2/2005 7:26:05 PM

^

Quote :

"systematically torturing Iraqi detainees from 2003 into 2004"

10/2/2005 7:35:10 PM

^^ and ^

http://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=283776&page=5#7605345

10/2/2005 7:39:38 PM

Quote :

"Go ask the innocent people killed on 9/11 about how they feel about this. Oh wait, you cant b/c these men who you are standing up for killed them. "

those terrorists were mainly saudis, but hey, what difference does it make? they're all the same, right?

Quote :

"i love how you act like these "detainees" are fucking boy scouts picked up while helping little old ladies cross the street."

situations close to that have actually been reported

Quote :

"Yeah, those shit heads were definitely all about your fucking conventions when they were sawing other men's heads off with a dull knife. You act like a fucking savage and we'll deal with you like one. I don't give a damn."

how many times does it have to be pointed out that the people who tortured americans in iraq or committed insurgent activiites aren't necessarily the same people who were being tortured in these prisons?

I mean, I want to know: do you just not realize the difference, or do you know that many of the detainees could be and sometimes are proven to be innocent, but just like using that as a talking point because it makes it seem like their being tortured is more justified?

[Edited on October 2, 2005 at 10:17 PM. Reason : ,]

10/2/2005 10:15:39 PM

Regurgitating O'Reilly is easier than thinking.

10/2/2005 10:46:58 PM

It never fails to amaze me how utterly ignorant some American's are.

In this instance I happen to be referring to 30thAnnZ and THABIGL

While Bush and all his cronies are definitely in the lead, this kind of thinking is what enables our nation to stay at war.

10/3/2005 12:25:46 AM

10/3/2005 8:40:37 AM

10/3/2005 11:03:10 AM

Double Hooray for a free Iraq!

[Edited on October 22, 2005 at 8:24 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2005 8:24:23 PM

Quote :

"that's expected from an asshole such as you, who has no concept about the rule of law, or the fact that people are innocent until proven guilty (and quite a few tortured and murdered detainees have turned out to be innocent)."

as innocent as the men who were slowly decapitated by terrorists. please.

10/23/2005 12:54:05 AM

hmm.. it appears .. for america and us troops there is no such thing as a geneva convention... with all the abuses/genocides/rape in the places at war, the govt continues to lie.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 12:55 AM. Reason : ,]

10/23/2005 12:54:36 AM

ya dont win a war by being warm and cuddly and putting prisoners in time out in the corner. its not our fault the islamo-facists get their panties in a bunch over dumb shit that we do but then go on to do shit 50x worse.

10/23/2005 1:22:53 AM

Quote :

"get their panties in a bunch over dumb shit that we do but then go on to do shit 50x worse"

yea...Pearl Harbor was comparable to nuclear attacks on Japan.

10/23/2005 2:05:21 AM

I personally find it hard to stomach the collective apoplexy over the use of torture. There is a basic inconsistency in the position that the "rule of law" folks are taking.

On the one hand, we're expected to believe that the situation in Iraq is totally degenerate and a quagmire. It is therefore a war zone without many limits, and certainly nothing resembling the civil rule of law to which we are accustomed.

Yet on the other hand, soldiers and other actors in this "quagmire" situation are supposed to treat "detainees" as though they are real prisoners in any ordinary country, awaiting trial.

Personally I am pragmatic to believe, to some extent, that Iraq is basically a Hellhole. So I find it hard to jump on the Ivory Tower bandwagon and believe that our prisoners of war will be treated as anything but eminent threats.

Now maybe I'm wrong and Iraq is not basically a Hellhole, and those reports I see of serious casualties aren't happening.

I realize that the Holiest of All Documents, the Geneva Conventions, requires that we not so much as lay a finger on our poor captives -- but does anyone really believe that if al Zarqawi himself were captured tomorrow and verified as such, he would not deserve the fate of his enemies and then some?

War is Hell.

10/23/2005 2:26:38 AM

And none of these cases of torture were condoned by the chain of command. In fact, everyone one has been condemned outright and the perpetrators punished in accordance with the US Military Code of Conduct.

When people on this message board defend torture, they are not defending it in any official capacity. They are morally defending it as "justified" which is largely irrelevant, the US Military has spoken on the use of torture as it gets most purpetrators thrown in Jail and otherwise punished.

Your complaint seems to be that torture is not punished as harshly as you would prefer, which is irrelevant.

10/23/2005 8:45:12 AM

^ the justice given in response to punishment for torture committed by troops is pathetic. its so bad that people have to go out of their way to capture torture/burning bodies on camera and then show it to the world before the pentagon says ' o and by the way, we condem that .. like they dont really represent american values or some bs like that' . lets just give these guys a couple months in jail to make everyone happy. thats it! my feeling if that dude never exposed abu gharib, or other abuses for example in the headlines, no one would of ever said anything or have cared while still the crimes continue. my feeling is that the government was injust in giving these orders, and not only them, the soldiers/marines/infantry are just as well responsible. they executed the orders themself, they didnt have to do it, (bash in peoples feet, break peoples knees, heads etc, rape, torture, electrical treatment, dogs, kill innocents etc) The moment ... once they know whats right and wrong then i do beleive that they have a responsibilty/duty to stand up for what they do beleive in for. those who dont, i have no sympathy for them. (whats the worst that can happen, they get booted from the military.. great, at least they will have thier sanity and not be owned) and i hope they feel the full weight of Gods justice for their opression. maybe not today, but with no doubt someday these people will be humiliated and be begging for mercy, but then perhaps will it will be too late?

10/23/2005 4:06:55 PM

smoker, prisoners of war do not get treated to a trial.

10/23/2005 4:12:48 PM

Quote :

"yea...Pearl Harbor was comparable to nuclear attacks on Japan."

there is so much wrong with that statement i wont even acknowledge it with a response

10/23/2005 5:46:09 PM

^you just did.

10/24/2005 8:20:27 AM

Quote :

"The commander said the four men -- identified by the Telegraph as employees of the Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root -- realized their convoy had taken a wrong turn and were desperately trying to escape from the town when their vehicle was attacked by insurgents. The Telegraph said "dozens of Sunni Arab insurgents wielding rocket launchers and automatic rifles" pursued their truck and shot at it. Two contractors who were not killed in the initial firing were dragged from their vehicle, and one was shot in the back of the head, the newspaper said. The crowd "doused the other with petrol and set him alight. Barefoot children, yelping in delight, piled straw on to the screaming man's body to stoke the flames," according to the report. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/22/AR2005102201192.html

And you seriously expect me to get upset over some Jawas being tortured when they do shit like this? Guerilla wars are not neat and pretty. They do not follow any conventions written with 1840 "gentlemen's" warfare in mind. The enemy gives no quarter and none shall be asked, therefore we should return his niceties in turn.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/magazine/23sassaman.html?emc=eta1


I think this is one of the best articles I've ever read detailing the reasonings and frustrations behind fighting this war. You can see that we soldiers are not mindless in what we do. There is a method to the madness. However, I personally disagree with the Platoon leader's decision and think he's a raging dumbass.

10/24/2005 1:46:36 PM

OMG TORTURE IS OKAY IF WE DO IT TO BAD PEOPLE!!!

10/24/2005 1:50:41 PM

^ yes, it is.

10/24/2005 2:00:28 PM

no

no it isn't

10/24/2005 3:48:30 PM

Sure it is. The problem lies in defining and all agreeing on who the bad people are.

10/24/2005 3:51:41 PM

no, it isn't. do you even know what torture is? have you actually thought about it?

10/24/2005 4:34:55 PM

there are people in this world that deserve having their toe nails pulled out, electric shocks from car batteries to their genitals, being beaten to unconsciousness, revived and then beaten again, food, water and sleep deprivation, chemical burns, eyes gouged out, being broken on the wheel, racked, have boiling water poured on them, being boiled in a pot, burned, being shat upon, humiliated in the worst way, have hair pulled out one at a time, have their tongues pulled out, having biological tortures, and anything else you can think of.

some of the people we've captured are these people. most aren't. and you can't tell the difference. so don't do it.

10/24/2005 4:45:18 PM

Hey, I think that's just what we need in Iraq.

More faulty intelligence.

10/24/2005 4:52:52 PM

As someone who has been once, has lost three friends over there, and is soon to return, torture serves no real purpose. while certain kids of interrogation techniques (sleep deprivation, stress positions, etc) all can produce useful intelligence, someone who is about to get his legs pulverized is either going to hate you so much he won't say anything, or he will tell you what he thinks you want to hear to save himself. But thats just the "logical" argument against torture.

"America is great because America is good" said DeTocqueville When we cease to be the "bigger" nation and do what is right, then we cease to have the moral authority we seek to wield in the world.

Practically, if a soldier, under stress, lashes out at a PUC once its understandable, if wrong. Pulverizing a PUCs legs through repeated beatings? No

10/24/2005 5:11:26 PM

Quote :

" some of the people we've captured are these people. most aren't. and you can't tell the difference. so don't do it."

A difficult statement to quantify, but I agree that such truly harsh forms of torture should be reserved for the especially deserving. However, most people hear the word torture and fail to disassociate its absolute Fascist or NKVD meaning. What about sleep deprivation? What about making a person stand for long periods? It is not physically painful but can equally break a man into a babbling ball of flesh. Torture is the ultimate grey area in terms of Geneva and all the people who signed the convention. In the type of warfare we are currently engaged it must be used. However, the American people are squeamish on the topic. It is critical to the battlefield commanders and operators to have legitimate and actionable real time intelligence. The most influential intelligence in insurgent warfare is HUMINT (human intelligence). Which relies on willing informants and those who are “persuaded” to inform? Finally, on a moral level, 4th generation warfare as described by Van Crevald, is what we are currently involved with, requires a rethinking of tactics and procedures. It also requires the general population to rethink the musket vs. musket technique of warfare, which our (U.S) military really has only come a little ways from. With that in mind, rethink the absolute adherence to conventions written with wars 100yrs old in mind.

Quote :

"no, it isn't. do you even know what torture is? have you actually thought about it?"

Yes, have you? Better question, have you ever truly hated a human being and wanted something from him? Be it his death or information, when you can say yes to that then I’ll throw you a bone on the topic. Do not mistake a disciplined and well trained Legion for moral purity. The U.S. military is truly the finest conventional military on earth, much like Rome; however, even the unconventional Gaul’s got the drop on Caesar. It was Rome's absolute willingness and faith in the Legion that permitted its success.

10/24/2005 5:13:36 PM