Quote :

"Paul ranked societies based on the percentage of their population expressing absolute belief in God, the frequency of prayer reported by their citizens and their frequency of attendance at religious services. He then correlated this with data on rates of homicide, sexually transmitted disease, teen pregnancy, abortion and child mortality. He found that the most religious democracies exhibited substantially higher degrees of social dysfunction than societies with larger percentages of atheists and agnostics. Of the nations studied, the U.S. — which has by far the largest percentage of people who take the Bible literally and express absolute belief in God (and the lowest percentage of atheists and agnostics) — also has by far the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases."

Quote :

"Murder rates? Six of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates were "red" in the 2004 elections (Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, South Carolina), while the deep blue Northeastern states had murder rates well below the national average. Infant mortality rates? Highest in the South and Southwest; lowest in New England. Divorce rates? Marriages break up far more in red states than in blue. Teen pregnancy rates? The same."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-brooks1oct01,0,3034570.story

10/5/2005 8:17:42 AM

10/5/2005 8:24:37 AM

First of all, not all religion is good. You have people who openly worship satan/lucifer and others involved in the occult. Then you have many others in religious systems with heavy occult influence, but those in the religious system are unaware of it.

The vast majority of people are caught up in FALSE religious systems. And if most people are involved in religious systems that are in fact occultism, what kind of effect is that going to have on society? It would be better that someone be not involved in religion at all than being invovled in occultism.


This reminds me of that quote from Thomas Jefferson...

"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors."

---Thomas Jefferson

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 8:37 AM. Reason : 1]

10/5/2005 8:32:41 AM

Let's assume the religious people are correct for a few minutes:

If you were the devil would you try to tempt or otherwise destroy people that are already where you want them to be (don't believe in God, etc.) or would you try to get some new recruits?

Now putting that aside. You could probably substitute the context of "religion" in the second quote with context of "poor" and still get the same effect. The poor probably have higher percentages in murder rates, infant mortality, populace in red states, etc.

I'm not sure the guy has enough evidence. I mean you could probably get away with just saying that the USA has "...the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases" and still be correct. Then all you would have to do is look for other areas in which the USA has inflated percentages and you may trick yourself into thinking there is a correlation.

The USA has the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases and they also have the highest consumption of tacos per capita. Therefore tacos cause people to murder, rape, pillage, and steal.

Maybe he did a better job than I am giving him credit for. Maybe he derived the findings in another way or maybe include a few more countries. I only read the provided quotes. I do know that Tonga is a pretty religious place and I heard that they have the lowest crime rate in the Pacific.

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 8:39 AM. Reason : -]

10/5/2005 8:36:29 AM

What in the name of Alla are you talking about - pryderi?

10/5/2005 8:42:09 AM

10/5/2005 8:52:17 AM

I read the article. He doesn't have much.

I like this part:

Quote :

" My prediction is that right-wing evangelicals will do their best to discredit Paul's substantive findings. But when they fail, they'll just shrug: So what if highly religious societies have more murders and disease than less religious societies? Remember the trials of Job? God likes to test the faithful. To the truly nonrational, even evidence that on its face undermines your beliefs can be twisted to support them. Absolutism means never having to say you're sorry. And that, of course, is what makes it so very dangerous. "

Wow. Just wow. Who is the absolutist again? Who is twisting facts to support whom? Astonishing. Don't try to prove us wrong because in the end you just are plain wrong. Sounds like they are adopting some of the right-wing rhetoric. I think the real problem is one of tolerance. Some non religious people don't tolerate religious people and some religious people don't tolerate non religious people.

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 8:57 AM. Reason : sp]

10/5/2005 8:55:31 AM

Not particularily religious myself but correlation =/= causation.

10/5/2005 9:00:48 AM

Quote :

"I think the real problem is one of tolerance. Some non religious people don't tolerate religious people and some religious people don't tolerate non religious people."

*cough* nail *cough* head *cough*

10/5/2005 9:03:11 AM

I love how this just skips over the obvious in its blind charge at religion.

Poor people tend to be religious, because religion is something that they can turn to. Poor people also tend to have shitter statistics.

If the author had wanted to say shit that was equally stupid, except get crucified for saying it, he could have just been like, "Five of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates have large black populations." Equally substantiable, which is to say, not fucking substantiable at all.

10/5/2005 12:52:43 PM

So the richest nation in the world has high rates of social disorder because its poor?

10/5/2005 1:24:00 PM

^^ Are you saying that religion actually doesn't help people in any way?

Quote :

"Not particularily religious myself but correlation =/= causation."

10/5/2005 1:25:04 PM

Quote :

"So the richest nation in the world has high rates of social disorder because its poor?"

We have more poor people (and poorer poor people) than many other Western nations.

10/5/2005 1:36:36 PM

The closest place to Eden on earth ....

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 1:55 PM. Reason : *~<]BO]

10/5/2005 1:53:23 PM

Quote :

"pryderi: Too much religion may be a dangerous thing."

Does this apply to the global warming religion too, or only to Christians?

---

Quote :

"GoldenViper: We have...poorer poor people"

Source?

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 2:23 PM. Reason : ---]

10/5/2005 2:23:03 PM

Quote :

"Our poor are black... how couldn't they be poorer?"

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 2:27 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2005 2:27:15 PM

Quote :

"^^ Are you saying that religion actually doesn't help people in any way?"

No.

I was relating more to the point that religion may / may not have anything to do with these stats. I'd consider it more of an economic class issue than anything. Not a Marxist or anything, but the states named are poor in comparison the rest of the country. Infant mortality, etc are usually found to be higher in lower income areas.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. Religion can be good or bad depending on how it's applied to one's life. I think Jesus was a cool dude with some good ideas. I try to live up to those ideals most of the time, but I'd not call myself a Christian, or religious for that matter. Just trying to live a good life and not shit on people along the way.

10/5/2005 3:23:34 PM

Quote :

"Are you saying that religion actually doesn't help people in any way?"

Religion doesn't make you wealthy, if that's what you mean. That's not its job.

10/5/2005 3:25:49 PM

Quote :

"Source?"

Hmm...

10/5/2005 3:34:47 PM

Quote :

"Does this apply to the global warming religion too, or only to Christians?"

I didn't know there was a church advocating for global warming.

10/5/2005 3:35:13 PM

^
Not to borrow from someone else's work, but Crichton said it best...

Quote :

"Michael Crichton: ...If you look carefully, you see that [it] is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths. There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs imbibe. Eden, the fall of man, the loss of grace, the coming doomsday -- these are deeply held mythic structures. They are profoundly conservative beliefs. They may even be hard-wired in the brain, for all I know. I certainly don't want to talk anybody out of them, as I don't want to talk anybody out of a belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God who rose from the dead. But the reason I don't want to talk anybody out of these beliefs is that I know that I can't talk anybody out of them. These are not facts that can be argued. These are issues of faith..."

---

Quote :

"GoldenViper: Hmm..."

Quote :

"TGD: Source?"

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 3:47 PM. Reason : ---]

10/5/2005 3:46:06 PM

It's hilarious how much credibility you guys are giving a fiction writer.

You all had him testify to a Republican-led senate committee on the environment a few weeks ago. Have you run out of actual scientists?

10/5/2005 3:50:01 PM

Take it up with LoneSnark, TGD, if you think the chart is lying.

10/5/2005 3:53:10 PM

^
Never said the chart was lying, just wanted a source. I can create pretty Excel spreadsheets too...

---

Quote :

"boonedocks: It's hilarious how much credibility you guys are giving a fiction writer."

Or, rather, how much credibility we give scientists who have lately been disproving teh L3ft's articles of faith, eloquently stated by an anthropologist...

10/5/2005 3:55:42 PM

Only the LoneSnark can answer your questions.

10/5/2005 3:56:59 PM

Quote :

"If the author had wanted to say shit that was equally stupid, except get crucified for saying it, he could have just been like, "Five of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates have large black populations." Equally substantiable, which is to say, not fucking substantiable at all."

I agree with Grumpy on this one. Paul's charges might statistically correlate, but it's reckless and intellectually shallow to assume that it's the cause of these problems. We can take Grumpy's example and stretch it further: countries with high percentages of people of African descent have greater rates of HIV and violence. The same correlation can be made for American states. Therefore, the prescence of people of African descent are causing these problems. The argument is absurd of course and shows the danger of making such giant leaps.

Besides, what if I came up with a counter case? For example, there is a relatively large, highly religious and prosperous national community of evangelical Asian-American professionals (if you don't believe me, check out the ranks of IVCF and CCC at any major private university and see who makes up the majority). Yet this community has a lower rate of all the factors listed by the study compared to the national average. If a person's religious fervor were the cause of these social problems, then why isn't this community wracked by violence, STDs, and child mortality?

[Edited on October 5, 2005 at 5:01 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2005 4:57:58 PM

I am routinely shocked by how much I agree with GrumpyGOP.

10/5/2005 5:01:22 PM

I do have my moments of lucidity, you know?

10/5/2005 5:12:55 PM

What is amusing is that the first time I saw that Crighton quote was appropriately enough pointed out to me by a creationist. Creationists too are fond of the tactic of trying to make one empirical question into a religious debate.

10/5/2005 5:18:54 PM

This is a bit trite, but if you were walking down a dark alley at night, and 4 men approached you, would you or would you not feel better knowing they had just come from Bible study?

Say what you may, but Atheist / Agnostic regimes (Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Communist Cambodia) presided over the largest genocides of the 20th Century.

10/5/2005 5:23:12 PM

oh, you are gonna get flamed for the Nazi-atheist comment. the nazi's were FAR from atheists, at least on the surface.

10/5/2005 5:28:47 PM

Dangerous? Sometimes.

Amusing? Most of the time. See below:

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=355492

10/5/2005 5:30:20 PM

Hitler's wanton use of Christian symbols and politically convinent use of the Church (shameful as it is to Christians) does not a religious leader make.

For more ----> http://boundless.org/2001/regulars/kaufman/a0000541.html

10/5/2005 6:11:55 PM

HAHA. you actually think Christianity is what I was referring to? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. good work.

10/5/2005 6:14:34 PM

Is that the Duke Chapel?

10/5/2005 6:33:08 PM

No, I knew what you meant. At best Hitler was a pagan, and used pagan symbols. I say "at best" because, while it is a form of spirituality, its lack of centrality of "religion." after all, that is what attracts many adherants, the ability to define their belief set. So to deny his attachment to Christianity and (obviously) Judiasm (the two major western religions at the time) is a valid point.

But EVEN IF you were to remove Nazi Germany from the equation, that still leaves China and Pol Pot's Cambodia. My original statement about atheistic regimes remains.

10/5/2005 6:33:33 PM

hey, never disagreed about China or Russia. I was just saying you will get flamed for calling Nazi-Germany an atheist regime. Especially by good ol' pryderi, who LOVES to point out that fascism generally uses religion as a tool of power, especially when he's trying to call dubya a little hitler in training

10/5/2005 6:36:21 PM

Quote :

" but if you were walking down a dark alley at night, and 4 men approached you, would you or would you not feel better knowing they had just come from Bible study?"

Are they white?

10/5/2005 6:37:50 PM

I've read pyderi, his argument is flawed in that fascism seeks to make the worship of the state as the religion. appreciate the heads up though.

10/5/2005 6:44:38 PM

Quote :

"I love how this just skips over the obvious in its blind charge at religion. Poor people tend to be religious, because religion is something that they can turn to. Poor people also tend to have shitter statistics. If the author had wanted to say shit that was equally stupid, except get crucified for saying it, he could have just been like, "Five of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates have large black populations." Equally substantiable, which is to say, not fucking substantiable at all."

exactly what I was thinking. gg

10/5/2005 6:48:57 PM