Quote :

"Karzai 'Very Unhappy' About Burned Bodies Allegations Friday, October 21, 2005 KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — President Hamid Karzai said Friday he was "very unhappy" to learn that U.S. soldiers had burned the bodies of two dead Taliban fighters, but he said mistakes happen in war and Afghans shouldn't let the incident mar their impression of the United States. His apparent attempt to reduce Afghans' anger over the alleged desecration of the bodies came amid warnings by Islamic clerics of a possible violent anti-American backlash. "Sometimes things happen in these sort of operations, during war. Soldiers make mistakes," he told reporters in Kabul. "We are very grateful for the international community's assistance ... Their soldiers have shed their blood in our country." But he added, "We in Afghanistan in accordance with our religion ... are very unhappy and condemn the burning of the two Taliban dead bodies. I hope such incidents will not occur again." Karzai on Thursday ordered an inquiry into television footage that purportedly shows U.S. soldiers burning the bodies of the two dead Taliban fighters to taunt other militants. The U.S. military also launched an investigation. Cremating bodies is banned under Islam, and one Muslim leader in Afghanistan compared the video to photographs of U.S. troops abusing prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. "Abu Ghraib ruined the reputation of the Americans in Iraq and to me this is even worse," Faiz Mohammed told The Associated Press from northern Kunduz province. "This is against Islam. Afghans will be shocked by this news. It is so humiliating. There will be very, very dangerous consequences from this." A cleric in Kabul, Said Mohammed Omar, said, "The burnings of these bodies is an offense against Muslims everywhere. Bodies are only burned in hell." Footage of the alleged act has not been broadcast yet in Afghanistan and though the local media has reported on it, many people were still not aware of it and there have been no demonstrations like anti-American protests in May that turned violent and killed 15 people. Those riots erupted after Newsweek magazine said U.S. soldiers at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility desecrated Islam's holy book, the Quran. Newsweek later retracted the story. Worried about the potential for anti-American feelings over this incident, the U.S. State Department said it instructed U.S. embassies around the globe to tell local governments that the reported abuse did not reflect American values."

until we start actually punishing people for doing shit like this AND the people who ordered it, we won't be regaining any good reputation we ever had.

no matter how many good things you do, doing some boneheaded, ignorant shit negates it. i don't know wtf anybody is thinking with things like this and abu ghraib.

10/21/2005 9:52:21 AM

hell freezes over as 30th says something logical and something that I totally agree with.

10/21/2005 9:53:01 AM

well i doubt that shit won any hearts and minds

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 9:56 AM. Reason : *]

10/21/2005 9:55:51 AM

i was originally anti-corpse burning, but since my hero-builder, the army, is doing it.....PRO-CORPSE BURNING.

10/21/2005 10:15:24 AM

HOW CAN YOU SAY WE SHOULD REPREMAND OUR army?? DON'T YOU KNOW THEY ARE PROTECTOING YOU? AND YOUR FREEDOMS? YOU MUST BE HIPPY LIBERAL DOUCHE WEINER TRAITORIST MICHAEL MOORE CLINTON COMMIE SCUM!!

10/21/2005 10:18:33 AM

^ I laughed.

10/21/2005 10:44:10 AM

whats wrong with what happened? The bodies are lifeless. Plus, you get the enemy so pissed off that they attack on emotion/making it half-hazzard. Then we can kill more of them. HOOAH!

10/21/2005 11:26:45 AM

^some people have said that seriously.

and that is exactly what happens.

HOWEVER, you also alienate the populace and don't end up getting any information from them.

they didn't just insult the taliban and their religion, they also insulted the general population and their religion and these are the people we need help from.

10/21/2005 12:01:00 PM

do you think the soldiers knew cremation was banned under Islam?

probably not. why? because no one ever told them.

the lack of training and good judgement that has been displayed by this and other scandals like abu ghraib makes me

10/21/2005 12:10:26 PM

Quote :

"until we start actually punishing people for doing shit like this AND the people who ordered it, we won't be regaining any good reputation we ever had."

Isn't someone already serving like 15 years in prison for abu?

10/21/2005 12:45:13 PM

Quote :

"do you think the soldiers knew cremation was banned under Islam?"

i knew that

i'm thinking a lot of people know that

BUT THEN AGAIN, WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO KNOW THE CULTURAL MOIRES OF A SOCIETY WE'RE TRYING TO REBUILD

OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE NEW111!!

10/21/2005 1:15:09 PM

Quote :

"the lack of training and good judgement that has been displayed by this and other scandals like abu ghraib makes me"

The army isn't a babysitter. Boot camp didn't teach me to set up a feeding schedule for detainees. My job is to kill them so we don't have to pay for their free meals.

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 2:04 PM. Reason : asd]

10/21/2005 2:03:32 PM

yeah, let's forget to tell our soldiers that we're bound by the little thing called the 4th Geneva Conventions of Prisoners of War. and that will be acceptable.

idiot.

10/21/2005 2:58:46 PM

^ not my MOS, pogue bait.

If it wasnt for th media then your timid ass wouldn't have known about Abu.

When was the last time any insurgent played by the rules? The problem is that they know we are bound by these rules, so they exploit it. I don't give a damn about their religion, if you make it uncomfortable for them to continue fighting, they'll drop that haji jingle shit in a heartbeat.

You can break a population from this nonsense. It takes quick, violent actions that shock the dogshit out of them. People can be herded like sheep. Once they get the frightening wolf in their head, it only takes a few shepherds to control them.

10/21/2005 5:20:23 PM

VIOLENCE IS ALWAYS THE ANSWER

duh

10/21/2005 5:21:54 PM

you damn right it is.

Thats how these people have lived all their lives. Thats what they understand

10/21/2005 5:24:30 PM

Quote :

"Boot camp didn't teach me to set up a feeding schedule for detainees. My job is to kill them so we don't have to pay for their free meals."

i dont think anyone expects every soldier to know that cremating is banned by islam, but the people making those decisions should (and i would bet do)

10/21/2005 5:28:49 PM

Quote :

"If it wasnt for th media then your timid ass wouldn't have known about Abu. When was the last time any insurgent played by the rules? The problem is that they know we are bound by these rules, so they exploit it. I don't give a damn about their religion, if you make it uncomfortable for them to continue fighting, they'll drop that haji jingle shit in a heartbeat. "

So, if it wasn't for the media, i wouldn't have found out about the convention violations, and this means what exactly? that the media is bad? that what these inbred, white-trash, dregs-of-society "soldiers" did something that was otherwise acceptable?

why don't you pull your head out of your ass and try to realize EXACTLY WHY we have the Geneva Conventions. it's so hot-headed dipshits like you don't fucking torture and maim and starve and kill wounded and POW's.

who the fuck cares when they played by the rules? what are you, a little baby? this is the real goddamn world. IF WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER THAN THEM, THEN WE SURE AS FUCK OUGHT TO BE ACTING LIKE IT. GODDAMN, YOU ARE SUCH AN IMBECILE.

Quote :

"You can break a population from this nonsense. It takes quick, violent actions that shock the dogshit out of them. People can be herded like sheep. Once they get the frightening wolf in their head, it only takes a few shepherds to control them."

you're probably too stupid to realize that you are proving your point yourself, except the terrorists are the wolves, and rummy and bush are the shepherds.

not your MOS, what a fucking cop-out. you are an embarrassment to america, if you seriously think it is okay to violate the geneva conventions because you're not an MP.

10/21/2005 5:49:24 PM

I think these guys were Psy-Ops, so they knew exactly what they were doing. They also faced the bodies away from the sun while burning them or some such which is supposedly bad to Muslims for some reason or another. Furthermore, as the psy-ops guys were burning the bodies they were yelling into the village that the others there should "come out and fight like men."

All of this according to NPR...

10/21/2005 5:57:44 PM

im arguing against general conceptions that violating the conventions is acceptable and even necessary

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 6:01 PM. Reason : klar]

10/21/2005 6:01:26 PM

Quote :

"hell freezes over as 30th says something logical and something that I totally agree with."

10/21/2005 7:19:05 PM

Quote :

"So, if it wasn't for the media, i wouldn't have found out about the convention violations, and this means what exactly? that the media is bad? that what these inbred, white-trash, dregs-of-society "soldiers" did something that was otherwise acceptable? why don't you pull your head out of your ass and try to realize EXACTLY WHY we have the Geneva Conventions. it's so hot-headed dipshits like you don't fucking torture and maim and starve and kill wounded and POW's. who the fuck cares when they played by the rules? what are you, a little baby? this is the real goddamn world. IF WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER THAN THEM, THEN WE SURE AS FUCK OUGHT TO BE ACTING LIKE IT. GODDAMN, YOU ARE SUCH AN IMBECILE."

You're the white trash, kiddo. First off, you can pull your mother's tit out of your mouth and actually get a job or do something worthwhile with your useless life.

The Geneva convention was made in a time where our biggest enemies would be similar to us in military and culture. (Russia, Eastern Europe) not ragtag groups of camelshits running around as civilians with handguns and RGGs.

Quote :

" what are you, a little baby?"

Way to sound smart, dumbass

10/21/2005 8:16:48 PM

Quote :

"im arguing against general conceptions that violating the conventions is acceptable and even necessary"

You don't know what you are talking about

10/21/2005 8:18:18 PM

maybe some inbred neanderthals got confused and thought these sandies were actually dotheads

kind of how they would get confused and call me a sandy



cause dotheads get creamated and what not

10/21/2005 8:20:12 PM

^I know what happens on the Ganges

10/21/2005 9:17:01 PM

haha, creamated

10/21/2005 9:32:03 PM

haahha, crazywade lost this thread

NONSENSICAL RESPONSES!

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 9:37 PM. Reason : a]

10/21/2005 9:37:19 PM

^???

10/21/2005 10:01:44 PM

Quote :

"You're the white trash, kiddo. First off, you can pull your mother's tit out of your mouth and actually get a job or do something worthwhile with your useless life."

you're right, i'm the white-trash that is advocating killing combatants just so I don't have to feed them meals as POW's.

Quote :

"The Geneva convention was made in a time where our biggest enemies would be similar to us in military and culture. (Russia, Eastern Europe) not ragtag groups of camelshits running around as civilians with handguns and RGGs. "

you don't even know your history. try looking up partisan fighters.

Don't even start with me.

10/21/2005 10:32:21 PM

Quote :

"you don't even know your history. try looking up partisan fighters. Don't even start with me."

HAHA, I've been given an ultimatum by TEH SOAP BOX GURU!

10/21/2005 11:42:28 PM

is that the best you got?

too bad i'm not an iraqi, then you could shoot me!

10/22/2005 12:18:20 AM

no, you're just an idiot whom I refuse to waste my time arguing with.

I'm not going to play soap box patsy cake with a lame-ass college kid who hasn't been in the real world yet.

[Edited on October 22, 2005 at 12:48 AM. Reason : asdf]

10/22/2005 12:44:41 AM

OMG THEY'RE GONNA TORTURE ME
SO I'M GONNA TORTURE THEM FIRST

i love the volunteer army....

10/22/2005 12:51:10 AM

^good, because its the only one you have

10/22/2005 12:53:57 AM

HERE IS A link to the austrailian news site that showed taliban burning.

this is a video on here, that interviews the photographer.

http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2005-10-19

journalist reports that us forces who did this are using this as a tactic to get the taliban angry so that they would attack.

compliments -- 'psycholgical unit of the us army'

burning the bodies
facing them towards the west, where muslims bury toward the east.
and calling them dogs



[Edited on October 22, 2005 at 4:48 PM. Reason : l]

10/22/2005 4:43:49 PM

Quote :

"not my MOS, pogue bait... ...When was the last time any insurgent played by the rules? The problem is that they know we are bound by these rules, so they exploit it. I don't give a damn about their religion, if you make it uncomfortable for them to continue fighting, they'll drop that haji jingle shit in a heartbeat. "

1. What in the hell are you talking about with your MOS? Infantry--or any other combat arms MOS--has the same obligation to abide by the Geneva Convention treaty as anyone else, and it's MOST important for you to understand and follow those rules, because you have the most opportunities to break them, and the potential for committing the worst violations and for causing repercussions of the greatest magnitude.

The Laws of War are a good idea. First of all, it is TOTALLY irrelevent that insurgent fighters don't play by the "rules." We don't grade ourselves according to the standard of those who we are killing BECAUSE they suck so much. We are bound to do what is right.

Second, it is in our personal best interests. while insurgents in iraq may not adhere to the rules, do you think that this is the last military conflict we will be involved in? are you willing to forfeit rights as a lawful combatant and/or POW that you could potentially be granted in the future because it's convenient to not uphold them on your end today (and that's assuming you just don't care about the other reasons to uphold the Geneva Convention). Even if you are willing to make that gamble, i'm not willing to let you make that gamble on MY behalf (and on the behalf of others in the U.S. military now and future).

Third, upholding the Geneva Convention is strategically sound. There's no point in winning a battle if you do so at the cost of losing the war. I'm not saying pander to your enemy's wants and needs, but this one is partially a war for hearts and minds, and you don't do it by desecrating bodies.

Finally, upholding the Geneva Convention is politically sounds. War is politics by means of force--the two are pretty much inseperable. If you haven't noticed, this one isn't all that popular politically--either at home or abroad. International support isn't always necessary, but there sure as hell isn't any point in pissing it away for no reason.

Quote :

"Plus, you get the enemy so pissed off that they attack on emotion/making it half-hazzard. "

1. I believe you might be underestimating Haji. They don't have our level of planning at any level, but they aren't THAT ragtag, and they aren't stupid.

2. Read Sun Tzu.

Quote :

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Quote :

"The army isn't a babysitter. Boot camp didn't teach me to set up a feeding schedule for detainees. My job is to kill them so we don't have to pay for their free meals. "

1. The Marine Corps isn't a babysitter (in theory, at least. in practice, it's not often true). The Army is an occupying force. That roughly translates to "babysitter."

2. For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme
of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.


I'm not saying that we shouldn't give our enemies the worst kind of hell that we can unleash when we fight them (up to the point at which principles of economy of force constrain it IOT allow power to be used elsewhere). I'm not a proponent of handling our enemies with kid gloves. However, there is no point in being morally wrong or fundamentally stupid and counterproductive.

10/22/2005 6:35:39 PM

and besides all that, as a U.S. serviceman, you don't have the authority to circumvent an international treaty.

in fact, if you are in charge/command of anyone, you are obligated (not legally, but professionally) to encourage/require adherence to the Geneva Convention...to "sell the idea as your own."

actually, you are prob legally required to require adherence.

10/22/2005 9:12:54 PM

Quote :

"The army isn't a babysitter. Boot camp didn't teach me to set up a feeding schedule for detainees. My job is to kill them so we don't have to pay for their free meals."

Last time I checked, knowing law of land warfare and Geneva Conventions was part of the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks. And here I thought Boot Camp would at least get you qualified on Skill Level 1 and 2 tasks. Way to meet the standard...

[Edited on October 22, 2005 at 9:59 PM. Reason : .]

10/22/2005 9:45:58 PM

Quote :

"The Marine Corps isn't a babysitter (in theory, at least. in practice, it's not often true). The Army is an occupying force. That roughly translates to "babysitter.""

There aren't nearly as many marines as soldiers, therefore you can hand the job over.

I get pissed when some dumbass jarhead says "well the army has had more casualties, not the marine corps" In fact, there are more soldiers to shoot at than marines...


PLus,the marines don't have to deal with the bullshit that the army has to as far as letting in dumbass thugs off the street. You're a smaller force, trained as a spearhead for operations, therefore you can't take in anyone who is borderline in the mental/judgement making department. You must be good in order to be useful.

The problem is (and this is another issue) that the army can't function more efficiently because of the lack of recruitment of good soldiers to fill thousands of slots. This is why we're outsourcing jobs in the army because we're so big that we're imploding.

10/22/2005 10:10:17 PM

the point of all that i said--and even that specific paragraph--wasn't to compare and contrast the Army and USMC.

10/22/2005 10:53:45 PM

^^

Dude, just sit in the corner and read your CTT Manual...

10/22/2005 11:17:11 PM