http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2005/10/30/in_vermont_a_revolution_to_secede_has_devotees/

Quote :

"In Vermont, a revolution to secede has devotees By David Gram, Associated Press | October 30, 2005 MONTPELIER -- A car parked outside the State House bore a bumper sticker saying, ''Regime change begins at home." Inside, about 100 Vermonters gathered in the House chamber for the Vermont Independence Convention -- devoted to Vermont creating a regime of its own."

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/36584.htm

Quote :

"Historic Vermont Meeting in State Capital Passes Resolution to Secede from the U.S. 2 Nov 2005 By Greg Szymanski [...] A packed House Chamber in the Vermont statehouse, with more than 400 gathered, started the daylong secession convention with a speech by keynote James Howard Kunstler, author of The Long Emergency, and ended with a resolution passed to secede from the United States. Most people think of secession as impossible if not treasonous, but the concept is deeply rooted in the Declaration of Independence, reminding us that “Whenever any form of government becomes destructive, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it and to institute new government.” And with the neo-con takeover of Washington, including all its branches of government that transforming America into a one-party dictatorship, that’s exactly what the resolution passed in Vermont seeks to do by members of grassroots movement growing in numbers daily. Although the resolution is the first step in the long process that needs support from the state legislators – as well as an officially recognized convention - the grass roots group called the Second Vermont Republic passed the following citizen’s resolution: “Be it resolved that the state of Vermont peacefully and democratically free itself from the United States of America and return to its natural status as an independent republic as it was between January 15, 1777 and March 4, 1791.” Even though critics give the secession group ‘a snowball’s chance in hell,’ organizers are firmly convinced in the present-day tyrannical political climate secession will not only succeed but will prosper."

11/3/2005 10:53:02 AM

Oh my God, our supply of Ben and Jerry's is going to be cut off! Mobilize the troops!

Seriously, would we even miss the state if it were to secede from the Union? I would imagine that 3 out of 4 Americans wouldn't be able to find the state on a map.

11/3/2005 10:54:55 AM

hahahaha

11/3/2005 10:54:57 AM

Quote :

"I would imagine that 3 out of 4 Americans wouldn't be able to find the state on a map. "

maybe that kind of stupidity is why they dont want to be associated with the rest of us.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 10:59 AM. Reason : df]

11/3/2005 10:58:16 AM

Honestly, I think that if this group gets the support of the people of Vermont, they should be able to secede.

11/3/2005 10:59:48 AM

if i remember correctly, this really isn't new

for some reason vermont has always had the secession bug

11/3/2005 11:00:06 AM

What kind of "free" nation would force a state to remain in it's union? You know they will get f'd with by the U.S. gov't if they try.

11/3/2005 11:11:18 AM

i know vermont is a small state
but they still have a lot more than 400 people

11/3/2005 11:17:39 AM

^^definitely not ours

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 11:17 AM. Reason : fux]

11/3/2005 11:17:44 AM

if vermont wants to secede... sure.

11/3/2005 11:21:59 AM

the question I have, however, is how are you going to fit the 65% of americans who disapprove of george bush into vermont when they secede?

11/3/2005 11:31:01 AM

idk, but we can give it a shot

11/3/2005 11:33:01 AM

Vermont has nukes tho

11/3/2005 11:44:57 AM

didn't they fight a war against us to keep states from seceding?

11/3/2005 11:50:50 AM

yes and it was found to be unconstitutional

11/3/2005 12:01:29 PM

Where does the Constitution prohibit secession? The states were sovereign before the U.S. was formed, and continue to remain sovereign after joining the Union. They voluntarily joined the Union. It is only logical that they can voluntarily decide to leave the Union.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 12:15 PM. Reason : 1]

11/3/2005 12:14:17 PM

The "secession is OK" line is tripe, and its only logical extension is anarchism.

If Vermont can secede from the Union, why can't Raleigh? Why can't NC State? Why can't my house? My room?

The Declaration of Independence barely leaves unspoken the crucial word, although I think it is obvious from the behavior of the signatories and later the Framers that they recognized it:

Quote :

"Whenever any form of government becomes destructive, it is the Right of the People to try alter or abolish it and to institute new government."

It is your right to fight tooth and nail to change your government. It is not given to you that you will always succeed.

Quote :

"They voluntarily joined the Union."

They also voluntarily endorsed a Constitution that endowed a large portion of power to the Federal Government. If I voluntarily agree to a mortgage, does that mean that halfway through I can say, "Well, I've decided to voluntarily pull out of this agreement" without consequences?

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 12:21 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2005 12:19:49 PM

Quote :

"for some reason vermont has always had the secession bug"

Only when you have Republicans controlling the White House and the Capitol.

11/3/2005 12:21:54 PM

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

Led by a former Duke professor

11/3/2005 12:41:37 PM

Wasn't it Vermont that was crazy about joining the fucking union after the revolution? Green Mountain Boys and all that garbage?

They don't know what they want.

11/3/2005 12:43:34 PM

Quote :

"The "secession is OK" line is tripe, and its only logical extension is anarchism."

Anarchism is okay.

11/3/2005 12:49:07 PM

No, no it isn't.

11/3/2005 12:58:25 PM

In what ways is it NOT okay?

I'd imagine a conservative such as yourself would agree with a lot of anarchist ideology
unless of course you're basing your opinion on a knee-jerk reaction to the word instead of on actual information and consideration

11/3/2005 12:59:54 PM

Quote :

"Wasn't it Vermont that was crazy about joining the fucking union after the revolution? Green Mountain Boys and all that garbage? They don't know what they want."

you're right. those same people are still in charge.

11/3/2005 1:00:23 PM

You idiots, vermont isn't even in the united states, it's a canadian providence.

11/3/2005 1:04:56 PM

OH SHIT!!!!!1

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

Quote :

"Sign the Resolution on thePetitionSite.com"

They have an online petition!! This shit is getting serious.

11/3/2005 1:06:20 PM

i say we let them go, but they have to take new jersey with them

11/3/2005 1:07:54 PM

The new axis of EVIL!!! :: Iran, Syria, North Korea, VERMONT

11/3/2005 1:10:08 PM

Quote :

"you're right. those same people are still in charge."

Ha ha. It isn't altogether common for a people to pull a complete 180 on something of that nature, clamoring to get something one century and then clamoring to get rid of it the next.

Quote :

"I'd imagine a conservative such as yourself would agree with a lot of anarchist ideology"

This is why you shouldn't allow your imagination to run wild.

Anarchism is just like Communism or a whole lot of other -isms in that it seems like it would work fabulously and to everyone's elation if it could actually be made to work, if even a few of its basic assumptions about humanity held true.

If you want to take the discussion further, make a thread about it.

11/3/2005 1:10:29 PM

Quote :

"Anarchism is just like Communism or a whole lot of other -isms in that it seems like it would work fabulously and to everyone's elation if it could actually be made to work, if even a few of its basic assumptions about humanity held true. "

kinda like conservatism?

11/3/2005 1:37:36 PM

is it conservatism or conservativism?

11/3/2005 1:41:12 PM

When we align ourselves with an -ism we voluntarily become consumed with the ideology of that -ism and it becomes more difficult for us to view the world in any other way. This goes for liberalism, conservatism, nationalism, feminism, sexism, anarchism, etc. This obviously depends upon the person, where some will become consumed by their beliefs while others can maintain a more open mind. I have observed both kind of people from both the "left" and the "right".

11/3/2005 3:21:21 PM

Quote :

"I would imagine that 3 out of 4 Americans wouldn't be able to find the state on a map."

more like 39 out of 40

11/3/2005 3:56:33 PM

If you think that any state or any portion of the nation should be able to secede at whim, well, you're just kind of stupid.

11/3/2005 4:03:19 PM

Fuck Vermont. They're only good for maple syrup anyway.

Also, on the website, I quote this:

Quote :

"8. Foreign Policy. We also favor negotiations with Maine, New Hampshire and the four Atlantic provinces of Canada possibly to create a New Atlantic Confederacy - a nation about the size of Denmark. We would not rule out similar negotiations with Quebec, as well as membership in the U.N. "

Bullshit. New Hampshire would probably never secede, and I'll be damned if Maine ever does. Sure, the state is full of Massachusettes liberals, but you'll never see secession. And I speak as a former Mainer.

11/3/2005 4:21:34 PM

I thought it was Mainiac?

11/3/2005 4:39:16 PM

that's only when we are on the road. of course, I should have said Mainah, with the accent.

11/3/2005 4:43:45 PM

Quote :

"Bullshit. New Hampshire would probably never secede, and I'll be damned if Maine ever does. Sure, the state is full of Massachusettes liberals, but you'll never see secession."

You misunderstand. What they'll do is send infiltrators into the state, quietly seize control through political manipulation and armed force if necessary, and then "liberate" the good people of the Northeast from their American oppressors.

I'd love to see how a nation composed of Vermont, New Hampshire, and a few fringe Canadian provinces would be economically viable. Better still, I would love to see how two states with drastically different political philosophies come to agreement on issues like social services and taxes.

11/3/2005 5:17:30 PM

Quote :

"The "secession is OK" line is tripe, and its only logical extension is anarchism."

creating your own government is somehow abolishing all government? do you think when you type?

Quote :

"If Vermont can secede from the Union, why can't Raleigh? Why can't NC State? Why can't my house? My room?"

Did raleigh, ncsu, your house, and your room as an independent sovereignty sign a constitution to join the u.s.a.? a constitution that does not prohibit explicitly secession?

Quote :

""Whenever any form of government becomes destructive, it is the Right of the People to try alter or abolish it and to institute new government.""

what the fuck? you can't just go rewriting the declaration of independence.

Quote :

"The Declaration of Independence barely leaves unspoken the crucial word, although I think it is obvious from the behavior of the signatories and later the Framers that they recognized it: "

do you know what the crucial word of your sentence is? it's UNSPOKEN. not barely or mostly or almost entirely, it's unspoken.

Quote :

"They also voluntarily endorsed a Constitution that endowed a large portion of power to the Federal Government. If I voluntarily agree to a mortgage, does that mean that halfway through I can say, "Well, I've decided to voluntarily pull out of this agreement" without consequences?"

once again, this is not analogous. even if it were, what are consequences that will happen if a state secedes? where is it written clearly in the constitution?

when you sign a mortgage you are signing clauses that cover if you decide to stop paying and the legal ramifications. as i've seen it, there aren't any such things in the constitution.

11/3/2005 6:34:30 PM

what will happen if a state secedes?

you dumb fuck. we found out what happens from 1861 to 1865.

WE FOUGHT A WAR OVER WHETHER STATES CAN SECEDE OR NOT, SHITHEAD.

11/3/2005 6:36:45 PM

Quote :

"do you think when you type? "

Yes, but do you read explanations before you jump to conclusions?

Creating one government is not abolishing all. Saying that one entity can just create your own government is saying that all entities can (barring the sort of hypocrisy you break out here in a minute), and if all entities do...anarchy.

Quote :

"Did raleigh, ncsu, your house, and your room as an independent sovereignty sign a constitution to join the u.s.a.?"

Nope. Neither did anyone alive today in the government of any but maybe Hawaii or Alaska. So you're telling me that the only way you get the right to secede is if a body that governed your geographic area two centuries ago signed a document? Nobody ever gave me the chance to make the decision. That's bullshit! Where are my rights! Somebody call the ACLU, I'm being oppressed!

Quote :

"a constitution that does not prohibit explicitly secession?"

Do all of the state constitutions prohibit secession? Do any of them? (I seriously don't know, but I have my doubts) Can I secede from N.C.?

Quote :

"do you know what the crucial word of your sentence is? it's UNSPOKEN."

If you think everything in our governing documents is spelled out, you're an idiot. Of course, if you think that the Dec. of Ind. contains any laws or rules about the structure of the American government to begin with, I guess we already covered the "idiot" ground.

Quote :

"when you sign a mortgage you are signing clauses that cover if you decide to stop paying and the legal ramifications. as i've seen it, there aren't any such things in the constitution."

If nothing else, treason would seem to apply. It wouldn't need all that loose an interpretation. Plus, secession would entail the seizure of a large number of Federal properties. That, and the fact that the Constitution gives power to Congress to pass laws (such as those that might, I dunno, prohibit secession).

11/3/2005 6:51:07 PM

WOULDNT BE SOMEWHAT IRONIC

IF A HUNDRED AND FORTY YEARS AFTER THE FACT

THROUGH THE SHEER IGNORANCE OF SOUTHERNERS

NORTHERN "BLUE" STATES WERE FORCED TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION?

11/3/2005 6:51:26 PM

omfg wouldn't it be ironic if, 2000 years after the barbarians of europe rebelled and destroyed the roman empire, they re-formed into the european union????


OMF THE IRONY

stfu. times change. 140 years is a long time

11/3/2005 7:37:42 PM

Quote :

"what will happen if a state secedes? you dumb fuck. we found out what happens from 1861 to 1865. WE FOUGHT A WAR OVER WHETHER STATES CAN SECEDE OR NOT, SHITHEAD."

WHERE
IS
IT
IN
THE
CONSTITUTION
THAT
A
STATE
CANNOT
SECEDE?

I KNOW MORE ABOUT AMERICAN MILITARY HISTORY THAN YOU THINK, AND PROBABLY MORE THAN YOU, TO BOOT.

WE ALSO HAD SANCTIONED WARS AGAINST INDIAN TRIBES, DOES THAT MAKE THEM LEGAL??? your argument is fucking terrible.

Quote :

"Creating one government is not abolishing all. Saying that one entity can just create your own government is saying that all entities can (barring the sort of hypocrisy you break out here in a minute), and if all entities do...anarchy."

and you are saying i jump to conclusions?

Quote :

"Nope. Neither did anyone alive today in the government of any but maybe Hawaii or Alaska. So you're telling me that the only way you get the right to secede is if a body that governed your geographic area two centuries ago signed a document? Nobody ever gave me the chance to make the decision. That's bullshit! Where are my rights! Somebody call the ACLU, I'm being oppressed!"

i'm not surprised that you're being stupid enough to try to compare a house to sovereign nations.

the colonies ratified a document that declared the fed. gov't to have such and such powers. but NOWHERE in said document is it dicated that the colonies were giving up their rights to secede. i don't see how you are refusing this.

the only way the STATE OF VERMONT HAS THE LEGAL ABILITY TO SECEDE FROM THE UNITED STATES IS BY THE [B]ABSENCE OF STRICT PROHIBITION OF SECESSION[/B] IN THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

if you cannot see that there's a difference between you and a state, then you are dumber than a bag of dumb.

Quote :

"Do all of the state constitutions prohibit secession? Do any of them? (I seriously don't know, but I have my doubts) Can I secede from N.C.?"

when you start actually owning the land, come back and ask that question. i think it's quite obvious from the supreme court ruling in new london, ct THAT YOU DON'T OWN ANY LAND. which means YOU cannot secede. nice try, though.

Quote :

"If you think everything in our governing documents is spelled out, you're an idiot. Of course, if you think that the Dec. of Ind. contains any laws or rules about the structure of the American government to begin with, I guess we already covered the "idiot" ground."

i'd like to see where anything remotely similar to secession is referred to. why don't YOU prove to ME that secession is illegal or unconstitutional. then we'll talk.

Quote :

"If nothing else, treason would seem to apply. It wouldn't need all that loose an interpretation. Plus, secession would entail the seizure of a large number of Federal properties."

Quote :

" Section. 3. Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. "

LOOK AT THAT, ITS CALLED KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!! YOU SHOULD TRY IT SOMETIME!

do you know what an embassy is?

Quote :

"That, and the fact that the Constitution gives power to Congress to pass laws (such as those that might, I dunno, prohibit secession)."

MIGHT, you fucking moron, MIGHT =/= DOES.

this is why they should've put it in the goddamned constitution.

11/3/2005 7:48:20 PM

i'd bet money on hawaii leaving the union before vermont

and, with that, i've just won this motherfucking thread.

so quit responding

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 7:51 PM. Reason : s]

11/3/2005 7:51:15 PM

Quote :

"and you are saying i jump to conclusions?"

What was actually wrong with what I said? If everyone is their own sovereign government, how is that different from anarchy?

Quote :

"the colonies ratified a document that declared the fed. gov't to have such and such powers."

You haven't answered the question of why I am bound to adhere to the decision of "colonies" of which I was never a part, and which no longer exist.

Quote :

"but NOWHERE in said document is it dicated that the colonies were giving up their rights to secede."

And no where in that document or any of its subordinate documents have I given up my right to secede, either.

Quote :

"think it's quite obvious from the supreme court ruling in new london, ct THAT YOU DON'T OWN ANY LAND. which means YOU cannot secede."

Ahahahahaha. I, for one, think it's quite obvious from THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES AND EVERYTHING ITS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE that states can't secede, either.

So, if the Supreme Court explicitly decided that states couldn't secede, would you shut your trap? Oh, wait, that's right...you only do that when you agree with the court's decision, just like your precious ACLU does.

Quote :

"i'd like to see where anything remotely similar to secession is referred to."

Eh, I'm too lazy to pore through things as might be necessary to come up with it, but it seems fairly obvious that Congress repeatedly treated secession as illegal, meaning that, at some point, they probably declared it as such.

Quote :

"do you know what an embassy is?"

Yes, I do. I want to work in the Foreign Service. I also know what treason is, as defined by the U.S. Constitution, and I know that the South fired at the US at Fort Sumter -- or, if you prefer, "levied war on them."

Any act of secession will entail the seizure of Federal buildings. The Federal government will not give up those buildings, meaning that the seceding state will, invariably, have to make war on it.

Quote :

"this is why they should've put it in the goddamned constitution."

There should have been a lot of things in the Constitution that didn't seem necessary at the time. We've tacked on ammendments for that reason, and dickered at great length over some issues for others.

11/3/2005 8:12:23 PM

we let them secede, then kick their ass and take them back...

11/3/2005 8:14:40 PM

Quote :

"The "secession is OK" line is tripe, and its only logical extension is anarchism."

haha, your "logical extension" is the illogical slippery slope fallacy.

11/3/2005 8:22:48 PM

Quote :

"If Vermont can secede from the Union, why can't Raleigh? Why can't NC State? Why can't my house? My room?"

OMG, that is so deep!!1 If the state can tax residents, why can't your roommate tax you?! Think about it while marching on the brickyard.

11/3/2005 8:26:28 PM

set em up

11/3/2005 8:58:03 PM