Have a debate in 3 hours and I'm stuck here at work, so I was hoping I could get some assistance from teh L3ft w/ my talking points.

Why is Wal-Mart the single most evil corporation ever to be established on Earth?

11/15/2005 3:14:27 PM

profits?

(btw, i think galaxy cinema has a movie about this now/soon)

11/15/2005 3:15:42 PM

Because it destroys small mom and pop shops by using aggressive pricing that only a large corporation can do. It achieves these small prices by using foreign manufacturers with exploitative labor costs (ie. China) instead of domestic sources, thus destroying American manufacturing and industry.

That's the two big planks I've heard.

Oh wait, they also use exploitative labor prices at home (after destroying all those businesses) allegedly paying crappy wages to its employees, providing no benefits, crushing unions, and illegally forcing employees to do overtime. All at crummy wages that cannot compare to the wages lost from the destruction of the above mentioned mom and pop shops and American manufacturing.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 3:24 PM. Reason : Added a third point...]

11/15/2005 3:20:54 PM

because it makes items cheaper for you and me and everyone hates that

11/15/2005 3:22:27 PM

Take a look at their supplier practices. We discussed them in BUS 495K as an example of unethical supplier standards.

Here's a good one:
http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=360542

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 3:27 PM. Reason : good ol' t-dub...doing other people's homework since 199x!]

11/15/2005 3:25:18 PM

Common complaints include:

- Not paying employees enough (can't support a family on Walmart pay)
- Insufficient medical benefits/insurance benefits are too expensive to afford on a Walmart salary
- Contribute to urban sprawl
- Walmart drives 'the little guy' out of business by undercutting them
- Walmart 'censors' things i.e. they don't carry certain books/CDs, usually the explicit lyric/contoversial type stuff. Since Walmart is such a large retailer, some have claimed that Walmart is effectively censoring and violating free speech rights. Nevermind the fact the Walmart is a private company with the right to sell whatever they see fit.
- Not unionized
- Walmart badgers/manipulates local governments. Walmart has the ability generate huge amounts of sales tax (on their own and as a shopping center anchor) and they use that as a bargaining chip when dealing with zoning boards, etc.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 3:30 PM. Reason : Oh, yeah. I just figured out last week that you (TGD) are in my CSC-116 class.]

11/15/2005 3:28:24 PM

Because some people don't watch out for falling prices and are horribly maimed.

11/15/2005 3:28:25 PM

granted i dont agree with the anti-walmart crowd, but those are very superficial arguements that idiots use.... the whole idea of exploitative bullshit, doesnt hold much water anymore, but someone can pull out statistics which will... the most interesting ive heard so far, on walmart, but its purpose was supposed to be more of an attack on the industry itself. this one study consisted of a stastitic that i havent seen refuted yet... for every one percent that walmart gains market share in a community, the communites medicare costs rise 1 1/2 percent. this is very indicative of what will be claimed to be the coporate attempt at trying to push of helthcare and benefits onto the taxpayer and gov't, further surpresing wages.... well you get the point. the biggest justification i can think of is that, is that in a community where walmart moves in, alot of people do go out of bus. and yes in econ classes you always hear about competition keeping prices high enough so you will make a profit, but there is a barrier to entry, and dependence, and psychology involved. when a walmart undercuts a store, then dominates for a while, they get the person patterend and used to going somewhere, and i think that may have a phsychological issues involved with it. so it may not purely be an economic one. there are more, but if in that discussion only superfical shit like, the people in other countries are poor, or things of that nature are thrown at you i dont see you having problems, dismantleing them. but thats just my two cents, and i am currently in a email convorsation on this very same topic with one of my close family members....

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 3:31 PM. Reason : well my post came up late... damn people are fast....]

11/15/2005 3:30:30 PM

^^ Sorry just had to chime in but couldnt you relate that to any large big business?

Look at the deals Dell got and the other companies that decided to call NC home.

11/15/2005 3:33:35 PM

^ Yes. Yes, you could. Personally, my only complaint against Walmart is that the service sucks. I pretty sure that Walmart catches so much flak because of 1) penis envy and 2) they're a high visibility company.

^^ correlation != causation

11/15/2005 3:45:34 PM

It may be bad trends of the industry itself, but take every bad trend that we've had in the last decade, then multiply them by 10 gobbling up a huge chunk of the market through the whole country.

I've heard from an engineer who has directly delt with the Wall Mart buyers, they are just outright the most ruthless guys out there, and everyone has to deal with them.

also, if WM was a country, i'd be the 4th largest importer from China. Just in case you haven't heard it. The chain is just like every trend that is working to crumble our economy and culture all balled into one.

11/15/2005 3:49:11 PM

-paying less for employee benefits=you have to pay for those benefits w/ your taxes
-predatory pricing: you get excessively low prices, but someone else somewhere is losing drastically (ie:producer company, labor)
-exploitative labor costs, anti-protectionist Chinese labor practices
-bullies local gov. into getting what they want as far as land concessions

my grandad is a wholesaler, and his employer (Garland C. Norris, an Eastern NC staple in the paper products industry for years) has had to deal with them quite a bit. They use some pretty shady sales tactics to secure wholesaler contracts and push others out of the market.

just curious, who is staging this debate? I got an email asking me to participate in one on the same topic, but I'm here in Florida, so that's that.



[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 4:04:48 PM

There is nothing evil about Walmart. They pay their employees what the job is worth. If it is a low level, low skill job then it's not going to pay that much. These low end employees can easily be replaced and are disposable. A job at Walmart was never meant to be able to support an entire family. If you have a job at Walmart expecting to support your family you are stupid and a failure.

11/15/2005 4:23:57 PM

some of you fucks don't deserve to live in america

11/15/2005 4:25:15 PM

Quote :

"some of you fucks don't deserve to live in america"

Care to elaborate on that response?

11/15/2005 4:26:04 PM

well, i think its clear that wal-mart isnt just bad for employees...

its just as bad for other businesses

11/15/2005 4:30:19 PM

Quote :

"well, i think its clear that wal-mart isnt just bad for employees... its just as bad for other businesses"

So? The socialist policies, like the minimum wage, are what is bad for small businesses. They should be abolished and in doing so it would make huge corporations like Walmart accountable to the people instead of the government (who as of now isn't accountable to anyone).

11/15/2005 4:37:24 PM

Quote :

"Gamecat: good ol' t-dub...doing other people's homework since 199x!"

yeah but unfortunately it's not homework

The debate is being sponsored by the Society for Politics, Economics & the Law tonight in Broughton 3216 and apparently they needed more bodies on stage so I volunteered

Thx everybody, with this information I can convince anyone that Wal-Mart = teh deb1l!!1 ::evil laugh::

11/15/2005 4:39:27 PM

nobody is forced to work for wal-mart - they choose to do so - if they choose to work there and choose to attempt to raise a family on the money they make working there - the company is not at fault

if wal-mart can undercut other people's prices - so that for the whole - prices are cheaper instead of a few people selling products for a higher price then more people benefit - the majority that benefits will always beat out the few people that suffer

11/15/2005 4:40:38 PM

^^^so distributors/suppliers basically have their entire business forced out as wal-mart and its convenient, one-stop shopping drives its way into communities as well. wal-mart is ruthless with distributors, they dont play fair, and i know this firsthand.

when a co. answers to the people and not the gov., thats pretty democratic, and i like that. i doubt the people connected to the company (and theres alot more people than the employees of wal-mart) would stand for their tactics then.

This all looks nice on paper (low wages=cheap prices, cycles back around and all), but theres alot more to this issue than the math. this is where economists w/o education in more than facts and figures fail. theres alot more to take into account.

^^omg! youre arguing against wal-mart? but the CEOsconsumers!

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 4:43:50 PM

Quote :

"nobody is forced to work for wal-mart - they choose to do so"

Does that make it any better?


So, I heard that Sam Walton's full name was actually Samuel Walstein

11/15/2005 4:49:16 PM

Socialist policies like the minimum wage enable Walmart to help drive it's smaller competitors out of business. That's why Walmart is pushing to raise the minimum wage. The socialists donot understand this. That is why they fail.

11/15/2005 4:54:17 PM

^^ALERT SALISBURYBOY!

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 4:54:17 PM

^^thats a pretty damn sweeping generalization. wal-mart is forcing its way into a monopoly, but at the same time they are trying to raise the min wage? pushing to raise the minimum wage...so their workers can put more money back into wal-mart?

nevermind that the evil socialists are to thank for providing the benefits which wal-mart doesnt provide its own employees. some people cant (suprise!) do better than working a shit job like that. go tell a half-retarded dude to go to college and make a living instead of sitting on his ass all day. people are people, and people can really suck sometimes.

also, this still doesnt adress the issues of protectionism, labor conditions in the 3rd world, environmental issues, and the distribution/wholesale problems i brought up.

i know people who work/worked there, its damn near impossible to advance any. got a link about this?

Oh yeah, and w/o China's New Socialist Modernization, WAL MART WOULDNT EXIST ANYWAY, and you wouldnt have 75% of the shit in your room.

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 5:07 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 4:58:52 PM

bc of the labor force in 3rd world countries.

11/15/2005 4:59:04 PM

Quote :

"The socialists donot understand this. That is why they fail."

Fail? Fail? The head of the U.S.'s conservative party just passed a multi-billion dollar prescription drug coverage plan.

Mid-grade socialism destroyed your shit 60 years ago.

11/15/2005 5:02:31 PM

Other points have been mentioned, but I'll add that Wal Mart tends to reak havoc on a city's development. In mid-sized cities, they tend to build a store in an area of a city where they can corner a market, build a very unattractive strip mall, with large amounts of impervious surfaces/insufficient stormwater management, lack of trees for cooling/oxygen, etc (cities deserve part of the blame for failing to have or enforce appropriate zoning ordinances, although Wal Mart does everything in their power to influence/threaten/sue to get out of these). After killing some small businesses in that area, they build another store in the same general area, but on another side of some other competitors they can sap money from, and close down the old Wal Mart leaving a delapidated vacant strip mall shopping center.

Small towns are exploited because they have a hard time saying no.


Perhaps the most succinct answer I've heard to the question of why people don't like Wal Mart is "because Wal-Mart destroys cities."

11/15/2005 5:08:54 PM

1. They sell tasteless shit.
2. Their tasteless shit is not even the cheapest.

11/15/2005 5:13:28 PM

WALMART IS THE SOLE CAUSE OF STRIPMALLS AND HUGE PARKING LOTS.

11/15/2005 5:22:04 PM

Quote :

"thats a pretty damn sweeping generalization. wal-mart is forcing its way into a monopoly, but at the same time they are trying to raise the min wage?"

*sigh* Walmart is using the minimum wage to ensure it's monopoly. Walmart nor any of it's competitors pay minimum wage. They have to pay higher then that to retain a certain calibar of employees. If the minimum wage was raised these companies would have to raise their wages in order to retain the same calibur of employees. Walmart has nearly limitless amounts of money but its smaller competitors only can pay their employees so much before they go out of business. It's a ploy to crush competition under the guise of philanthropy.

http://www.mises.org/story/1950

Quote :

"bc of the labor force in 3rd world countries."

Labor problems in other countries are the result of the workers not having enough leverage against their employers to do anything. You can't blame Walmart for taking advantage of a great opportunity.

11/15/2005 5:26:39 PM

Quote :

"Fail? Fail? The head of the U.S.'s conservative party just passed a multi-billion dollar prescription drug coverage plan. Mid-grade socialism destroyed your shit 60 years ago."

France is in chaos because of socialism. Socialism only ultimately leads to failure.

11/15/2005 5:27:46 PM

^^^No, but they are the posterboy for strip development. They also seem to do more after the fact location-speculating than other stores, other than perhaps Walgreens, and have even deeper legal pockets than other box retailers.

Wal Mart isn't the sole problem, but they are the best example (which is part of why people consider them evil).

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 5:29 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 5:28:45 PM

^^OMG BIG GIRL
http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=364372&page=1

actually, this quote sums it up nicely:

Quote :

"France's unemployment is around 10%, the unemployment rate in the area where the riots are is around 40%. What is so special about this area? Immigrants. Immigrants from Africa and the Middle East. The problem is the French are actually racist in their hiring practices. These people are tired of not being able to break out of the ghetto because of their skin color. Capitalism isn't going to fix that by itself. "

-hamisnice



[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 5:39 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2005 5:36:48 PM

they may be a good example, but i dont think that is a good reason to hate them in particular. why dont we close all supermarkets while we are at it. stupid stripmallery.

11/15/2005 5:52:09 PM

Quote :

"Luigi: ^^omg! youre arguing against wal-mart? but the CEOsconsumers!"

[no], I'm just making sure I can argue for whichever side needs the extra man

My own $.02 as both an ex-employee and still-consumer is that Wal-Mart is the single greatest company to ever operate on US soil (followed closely by Apple, McDonald's and Lowe's) and it's a travesty Sam Walton hasn't been canonized by the Catholic Church for the unmatched blessings his innovation has given the world's poor.

But I figured I should probably make sure I can argue both sides

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 6:02 PM. Reason : ---]

11/15/2005 5:58:32 PM

it's much easier to show something as evil than it is as good

11/15/2005 5:59:19 PM

Wal-mart brings NET gains to the economy. Like anything else, there are some winners and some losers. Wal-Mart is lowering prices for everyday goods, thus raising the living standards of people on tight budgets. The mom & pop shops do lose out, but that's because low prices are more important than service to lots of people I guess.

Wal-mart jobs are unskilled labor, so don't be surprised if the wages and benefits suck. Now they shouldn't be allowed to break the law. Yet on the national scale, Wal-mart is not acting like a monopoly or anything. Their share of the retail market I think is like 20-30%. Their presence is encouraging other retailers to drop their prices and be more efficient.

11/15/2005 6:14:15 PM

Speaking of breaking the law, there's the whole anti-union thing.

11/15/2005 6:23:30 PM

Anti-union is not breaking the law. Walmart employees have repeatedly voted to not be unionized.

Quote :

"when a co. answers to the people and not the gov., thats pretty democratic"

Uh, that's exactly what's happening. The people are voting for Walmart by spending their money there.

11/15/2005 6:37:04 PM

and when they are unionized, walmart closes down the store.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/09/news/international/walmart_canada/

let me think, with the option of non-unionized work with no benefits, et al. versus walmart taking your job away by closing??

tough choices for a walmart employee who makes minimum wage, huh?

11/15/2005 6:42:39 PM

well, the same thing happened w/ mcdonalds. they closed a store in quebec when they unionized.

11/15/2005 6:47:00 PM

who said mcdonald's wasn't evil?

11/15/2005 6:47:45 PM

oh, they are

shitty service, wages, labor laws, and food.

11/15/2005 7:02:00 PM

Sam's Club is equally evil, but rather for the crime of providing those really fucking huge things of cheeseballs.

11/15/2005 7:02:20 PM

What, Walmart shouldn't be allowed to close a store when they want?

11/15/2005 7:07:14 PM

http://www.walmartfoundation.org/wmstore/goodworks/scripts/News.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1859765117.1132099804@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccjaddfdldmdkjcfkfcfkjdgoodglh.0&oid=Community&coid=14880

Quote :

"Wal-Mart is leading the corporate drive to assist in relief efforts, with $17 million in cash donations to aid emergency relief efforts including $15 million to the Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund, $1 million to the Salvation Army and $1 million to the American Red Cross. Additionally, Wal-Mart provided $3 million worth of merchandise and in-kind donations throughout Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas to shelters and command centers. Wal-Mart has also supported those in need in Texas by contributing more than $1 million to Governor Perry's Hurricane Rita Fund. Wal-Mart also is encouraging the general public to donate to emergency relief efforts through its 3,800 stores and CLUBS and through its Web sites. On five of the company's Web sites - http://www.walmart.com , http://www.walmartstores.com , http://www.samsclub.com , http://www.walmartfacts.com , and http://www.walmartfoundation.org - the general public will find information and an access link to make credit card donations to help victims of Katrina. Wal-Mart Stores, Neighborhood Markets and SAM'S CLUBS will be accepting customer donations at its facilities from any customer who would like to make a contribution for emergency relief assistance for Katrina victims and communities. So far, Wal-Mart has raised more than $6 million in public contributions made directly by customers at our 3,800 Wal-Mart and SAM'S CLUB locations. These dollars will be donated to emergency relief efforts. Here are some other examples of how Wal-Mart has helped with relief efforts: -Wal-mart gave $20,000 in cash donations to assists various animal shelters and organizations taking in lost animals in hurricane impacted areas. -So far, 2,450 Wal-Mart truck loads have been dispatched to communities throughout the Gulf States and Texas, including 100 truckloads of donated merchandise. -Wal-Mart has provided its drivers and trucks in special instances to acquire and transport relief supplies, water, food and clothing donated by outside community members and organizations. 70 pallets of clothing were donated and shipped to World Vision's Gifts In Kind Warehouse in Dallas to help evacuees. -Through Wal-Mart Photo Centers and Walmart.com, pictures of friends and loved ones can be posted on-line for free at any store to assist in efforts to locate and find those who could be missing. -Wal-Mart set up donation centers in various shelters to help arriving evacuees needing personal health and beauty products, clothing, diapers, wipes, tooth brushes, as well and food and water- all donated by Wal-Mart. -More than 150 Internet-ready computers were donated and delivered to shelters to help evacuees and families find each other via the Wal-Mart and Red Cross Web sites. Wal-Mart nationwide announced it would fill prescriptions, free of charge, to evacuees with emergency medicine needs and no money, even if they did not have a copy of their prescription. -Provided products, free of charge, in hard hit areas, such as in Pass Christian and Waveland, Mississippi, where truckloads of water, ice and dry food were distributed to residents in conjunction with the National Guard. A mobile pharmacy has also been established when the store could not open in Waveland. -Wal-Mart offered free check cashing in approximately 126 stores in the hurricane disaster area for an initial two-week period. This included government, payroll and insurance checks and computer-generated checks. -In-store Gift Registry kiosks were made available to victims to sign up for items needed so that others across the country could see those needs and assist in purchasing and sending items to those persons. -Donated the use of 18 vacant facilities in impacted states for relief efforts. Uses include evacuee shelters, supply depots, food pantry, a tent city for utility crews and even a dialysis clinic. The company will pay utilities on these facilities while in use. -Established one of the first online Emergency Contact Services to be accessed through any in-store kiosk and through http://www.walmart.com and http://www.samsclub.com , helping the public to locate and communicate with their friends and family members. It has received more than 50,000 postings and more than 2.1 million visits."

11/15/2005 7:14:59 PM

What, workers should lose their jobs for unionizing?

[Edited on November 15, 2005 at 7:28 PM. Reason : d]

11/15/2005 7:27:21 PM

They didn't lose their jobs for unionizing, per se. They lost their jobs because the store closed. Regardless, if you're going to vote to unionize, you should realize that it's a risk that you're taking: that your employer will choose to close the store rather than continue to operate with a union.

11/15/2005 7:44:50 PM

Quote :

"They lost their jobs because the store closed because the employer choose to close the store rather than continue to operate with a union."

corrected it for you.

hey, what do you know, we are in agreement!

11/15/2005 8:25:16 PM

I see no problem with Walmart closing the store to avoid it's workers unionizing. I would do the same thing.

Quote :

"let me think, with the option of non-unionized work with no benefits, et al. versus walmart taking your job away by closing?? tough choices for a walmart employee who makes minimum wage, huh?"

First off Walmart employees on average don't make minimum wage. Second off why should disposable employees get benefits? They aren't worth giving benefits to. If they don't like it they can quit and they will easily be replaced.

11/15/2005 8:32:01 PM