Anyone that has some knowledge of handguns

I am wanting to get a gun for Self-defense and to use to shoot at the range as a hobbie

I have narrowed it down to 2 guns and would like your opinion on them

The Ruger p345



Or the

Smith & Wesson 457s

11/21/2005 9:02:09 PM

Neither

11/21/2005 9:20:32 PM

I'm about to buy a Kahr

11/21/2005 9:24:38 PM

^get one. my ccp is a Kahr K9. couldn't be happier with it.

11/21/2005 9:53:35 PM

I have an HK USP .40 Compact, LEM

I mean I dunno it just depends on what you want

11/21/2005 9:55:49 PM

i can't afford to carry around an HK.

some people got it like that i guess.

11/21/2005 10:00:25 PM

why neither?

11/21/2005 10:07:25 PM

Have you held them and/or had the chance to shoot either of them? Neither would be a bad choice, and ultimately, its going to be whichever you're more comfortable with. Probably doesn't help much, but go with whichever one feels right to you.

11/21/2005 10:15:04 PM

what's your budget?

any particular calibers you are or are not interested in?

11/21/2005 10:35:31 PM

Quote :

"why neither?"

Ruger and S&W aren't known for making particularly great autos.

If you want to carry concealed, you might want something a little lighter. I'd probably get a polymer framed pistol, a Glock, XD, or Sig Pro

If you want it to double as a range pistol, you might want something lighter than .45.

Why did you pick these two?

11/21/2005 10:39:43 PM

check into a used SIG P226

sweet, sweet, shooting pistol. 9mm is cheap for the range. put some Failsafes or similar ammo in it, and I'd feel totally comfortable with it for self-defense.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 10:41 PM. Reason : or something like a P228, etc, if you want to CC]

11/21/2005 10:41:26 PM

My budget is 300-450 (getting these guns used in this range)

The only reason I picked the .45's is because I know they are going to drop someone quick if I ever have to use it in self defense.

I have considered a 9mm and still might go that direction in these same guns...just not sure

Is a 9mm going to be much more accurate at the range than a .45?

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 10:47 PM. Reason : sdf]

11/21/2005 10:46:46 PM

That is my budget too but luckily I have a hook up for the Kahr

11/21/2005 10:47:29 PM

The only thing that is going to drop someone quick is shot placement.

You aren't going to notice a difference between 9mm and .45 as far as accuracy is concerned.

11/21/2005 10:51:33 PM

^^^no, it's just going to cost a lot less.

I've owned a SIG P226 and a Springfield 1911 (stainless loaded). liked them both about equally (although they are very different). they are about equally accurate. the SIG held twice as many rounds...the 1911 is substantially more powerful.

i mean, the .45 ACP is unquestionably a great self-defense round. however, i find it hard to believe that a +P frangible 9mm round wouldn't do the job. even if your assailant wasn't dead when he hit the ground, i can't imagine that he would be having a good day after the first round hit...and then you could just keep blasting him until he was not a threat. i practiced a lot of double taps (esp with the SIG)...i never have any intention of shooting someone fewer than two times if the shit ever hits the fan.

^exactly. i put more faith in that and good bullets than big kinetic energy #s, at least when comparing something like a 9mm and a .45. they're both enough for the job, in my opinion. big power is great, but it's not a get out of jail free, and i'm confident enough in good 9mm rounds.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 10:54 PM. Reason : asdfasdfa]

11/21/2005 10:52:20 PM

^^^^ If you want to knockdown power of the .45 in a smaller cartridge, go with the .40 SW. It hits with the same impact energy of a .45, but with a higher muzzle velocity. The .45 rounds isn't known for its accuracy. My father once said that with his army issued .45 he was just as dangerous throwing the gun at you as firing it. Of course, give him an m-14 and you weren't safe inside of 700 yards.

11/21/2005 11:12:25 PM

I fired a sig before, didn't like how the trigger always had slack

the H&K was my favorite, but of course I don't have the bux for it

11/21/2005 11:15:45 PM

^^well, to be fair, the GI issue 1911s aren't really comparable to a Springfield Loaded, Kimber, or any of the myriad of "super 1911s" out there nowadays.

^i guess you're talking about how any DA/SA auto's trigger feels on the SA shots? it's no big deal...after you fire it some, you take up the slack in the trigger without even thinking about it. once i fire that first shot, i already have the slack pulled before i even get the sights back on target for the next shot. i thought my SIG had a pretty damned good trigger.

i don't like DA triggers. that's the only thing i don't like about Glocks (although they aren't exactly true DA...but for the purposes of this argument, they are). i like the way they feel in my hand, and i like the sights...and to be perfectly honest, i like the trigger ok FOR A DA TRIGGER. i think they're a pretty good tactical pistol, especially for the masses (as much as any firearm is good for the uninitiated, at least), but i don't really care for them at the range.

if you really want an awesome trigger, though, my money would be spent on a true single action pistol like a 1911, and then have the trigger worked.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 11:23 PM. Reason : asdfasdafd]

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 11:25 PM. Reason : asdfasdfa]

11/21/2005 11:17:14 PM

^ this is true

11/21/2005 11:19:32 PM

love the glock, wish i could afford one. light body makes it easy to handle/control. i like 9mm caliber anyway, a good balance between power and control. I think .45 has too much recoil.

some glocks jam easily if you dont hold the weapon steady. something about the slide catching brass on ejection.

11/21/2005 11:28:30 PM

.45 isn't bad on recoil in a 1911

it might be bad in a compact, polymer framed pistol. never shot one, though (although i shot a compact Para one time, and it wasn't unmanageable. i didn't like it, though)

11/21/2005 11:31:45 PM

The man asks for our opinions on the two guns he has in mind and he gets a gozillion suggestions for other autos with no real opinions on either of the ones he asked about.


Here're my opinions:
-P345: Nice and slim (as a single stack should be). Nothing really wrong with it at all. If you're a beginner the weight (or lack of) along with the recoil of a 45ACP (which isn't really much for someone experienced) may make learning to shoot accurately a slow process.
-457: clunky piece of metal. They dont fit me all that well. I'd avoid them...well simply because I just dont like them. There's nothing wrong with them.

Truthfully you may find it hard to learn to shoot well with either pistol. They are light and the 45ACP can be intimidating.
Don't let anyone tell you that a 40S&W is a step down in recoil or power either because it's simply not true. Most 40S&W loads recoil more than most 45ACP loads. You'll also find the muzzle blast of a 40S&W to be more than the 45ACP and that also affects how well people learn to shoot.
I think you should look at getting a 9mm.
My first auto was a Sig 228 in 9mm. Anyone who tells me it's not enough gun for self defense is an idiot. Two days ago I was shooting chicken silhouettes at 75 yards with it and I'm pretty sure I could put a hole in each nipple of a man at self defense ranges. That's a lot better than a 45 in the arm.

Quote :

" Ruger and S&W aren't known for making particularly great autos."

They both make great autos. They may be ugly and not as mechanically refined as more expensive guns, but they are still great pieces. I wouldnt mind a 345 or a 1006.

Quote :

"The only reason I picked the .45's is because I know they are going to drop someone quick if I ever have to use it in self defense."

No.

Quote :

"I have considered a 9mm and still might go that direction in these same guns...just not sure"

Much better choice. 9mm is cheap as hell to shoot. Cheap+lighter recoil=more practice=better shooter. There are plenty of premium 9mm loads that will work great for self defense.

Quote :

"Is a 9mm going to be much more accurate at the range than a .45?"

For you, probably. At least until you learn to shoot well for the fact that you wont be flinching. Neither are inherently more accurate. It depends more on the gun.

11/22/2005 12:23:40 AM

Quote :

"They both make great autos. They may be ugly and not as mechanically refined as more expensive guns, but they are still great pieces. I wouldnt mind a 345 or a 1006."

I actually think S&W autos look nice. I don't think anyone has ever accused one of having good ergonomics, though. Just don't feel right.

I'm not saying they are bad, I'm just saying there are better guns out there. If it was my life we were talking about, I'd put my money elsewhere.

11/22/2005 1:08:48 AM

very helpful info fumbler....i appreciate it

11/22/2005 4:31:58 PM

well, personally, i prefer the nerf n-strike firefly blaster. it's great for self-defense and shooting at the range as a hobby. best of all, it's nra-approved and guaranteed to raise your HP +7.

11/22/2005 4:40:50 PM

call the brute squad

i'm on the brute squad

you are the brute squad

11/22/2005 4:43:23 PM

If you want a glock but don't have the $$, look at a Ruger P95 or P97. They have the polymer frame with stainless or blue finish. Rugers come with a lifetime warranty through Ruger so no middle man to deal with.

They will set you back around $300-350 new.

11/22/2005 4:59:02 PM

get a 9 milly. glock 17. not too expensive. as far as accuracy, i've always thought all handguns were about the same. 9mm or a 380.

11/22/2005 5:19:17 PM

I dont particularly like either, but if those are your two choices, I'd def go with the Ruger. I have a Ruger .22 and I love it. Smith and Wesson can lick my nuts since they caved into all the gun control nazis first

11/22/2005 5:22:09 PM

Quote :

"The only thing that is going to drop someone quick is shot placement. You aren't going to notice a difference between 9mm and .45 as far as accuracy is concerned. "

oh wow, thank you for writing this....




[Edited on November 22, 2005 at 5:26 PM. Reason : opinions ]

11/22/2005 5:22:37 PM

i just have a large enough cock

11/22/2005 5:47:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

11/22/2005 6:03:18 PM

^^^Huh?

11/22/2005 6:51:33 PM

Does length of barrel make a difference in accuracy???

say 3 1/2'' vs. 4 1/4'' ???

11/22/2005 8:55:15 PM

read the articles i linked to
all your questions answered

as for your question, based on the article, it should, but practically i guess that would only apply to rifles, correct me if im wrong

11/22/2005 9:03:45 PM

At self-defense ranges, the difference in barrel lengths won't make a realistic difference.

A longer barrel will probably yield more manageable recoil, a shorter barrel will be easier to conceal.

11/22/2005 9:38:37 PM

barrel length DOES make a noticeable difference, if for nothing else than sight radius.

11/22/2005 9:40:32 PM

Theduke is correct. It is the lenth of the sights which increases the accuracy of a gun, not the length of the barrel. The barrel is going to be completely straight no matter what the length, therefore it is going to give the bullet the same direction no matter what. The only possibly factor I could imagine affecting accuracy with barrel length would be the amount of rifling in the barrel. Hence, more rifling giving the bullet a better spin, but for the range that most handguns are used for, this shouldn't factor in.

11/22/2005 10:36:53 PM

A longer barrel also means more powder is burned, giving off more energy.

11/22/2005 10:41:23 PM

Quote :

"Hence, more rifling giving the bullet a better spin, but for the range that most handguns are used for, this shouldn't factor in."

A bullet will stabilize with only 1 inch of rifling at the correct twist rate.

Duke is correct in saying the longer barrel will give you a longer sight radius.
Guns with longer sight radii have more "practical" accuracy. Because it's easier to line up two things (front and rear sight) that are farther apart, it takes out more human error and you will shoot it more accurately than a shorter barrel.

Barrel length in an of itself does not affect accuracy. It does affect accuracy by changing harmonics, manipulating the point at which a bullet passes through the sound barrier, and in manipulating the pressure at the muzzle (high pressure can destabilize a bullet). With these we're talking sub MOA differences so none of it matters in defensive handguns.

11/22/2005 11:16:31 PM

Quote :

"some glocks jam easily if you dont hold the weapon steady. something about the slide catching brass on ejection. "

i have been shooting glocks for a long time, both 9mm and 45 and have never once had a jam.

my next gun, the 5th addition to my growing family will definetely be a 1911 im gonna need a bigger safe

11/22/2005 11:23:17 PM

I also have never had a jam with my Glock (model 32)

11/22/2005 11:27:38 PM

Quote :

"some glocks jam easily if you dont hold the weapon steady. something about the slide catching brass on ejection."

Glocks jam, often with new shooters or weak individuals (mostly with weak new shooters ) because of limp wristing.
Glocks slides tend to be a tiny bit light, therefore they use stronger recoil springs. They are also lightweight meaning the frame doesn't help resist recoil much.
If you dont apply enough resistence (by holding the gun firmly) to the recoil (the gun is recoil operated) then the slide will not fully cycle. The brass won't fully eject thus catching between the breech and barrel, or in other words the damn thing is jammed. It can happen with any auto.

[Edited on November 22, 2005 at 11:54 PM. Reason : ]

11/22/2005 11:52:00 PM

yes, any auto can jam, and im not doubting what your saying...just never happened to me. its called a stovepipe jam, when the brass isnt fully ejected and sticks straight up out of the slide

11/23/2005 1:53:06 AM

the pull on the new 345 is horrible

11/23/2005 9:37:03 AM

Alot depends on hand size. My brothers BDA380 aims like an extension of my finger with the slim Pachmyr grips on it. When he changes and puts the original wood grips on it it no longer points as well due to the thicker cross section. We have matching Hi-Powers - his is polished with Pachmyr presentation grips where mine is the lower grade black with plastic grips. Mine fits my stubby fat fingers much better than his longer, more slender fingers. Really depends on the individual's personal preferences. One size does not all, as is usually the case.

If you get a chacne to shoot both see which one feels more comfortable in your hand. If the gun does not fit your hand well then you will not be as accurate as with a better matching fit. And practice, practice, practice.

11/23/2005 9:55:15 AM

Wow, I just wanted to be the first female to post here

11/23/2005 9:58:25 AM

i just bought a ruger p97 last week for 300 (new) and it is fantastic.

not the prettiest of handguns, but for the price you wont find a better 45

11/23/2005 10:01:51 AM

whats the price range for a decent 1911, like a springfield. i may wait till the gun show in january.

11/23/2005 10:26:34 AM

i saw maybe one good deal at the show saturday

im never going back

11/23/2005 10:36:15 AM