I know this will turn into a debate pretty soon, but I'm just trying to find some facts.

Claim: public schools in better areas receive more money than public schools in ghetto. (Say, we're talking about the same city, e.g. Chicago.)

Is the claim true or false? If it is false, why the discrepancy? As in "what are extra sources of money for schools in better areas?"

I am not not intereted whether or not the needs are different, or if there is a difference if it is fair. Just wanna make sure what is the correct premise. And I don't know where to look for information. I know schools are funded (in part?) by property taxes, which is why I wanna assume the two schools are in the same city (or county).

12/15/2005 9:41:39 AM

yeah its property tax revenue

12/15/2005 9:48:16 AM

I don't understand that though. The property tax is higher for a townhouse in Baltimore than a house in a neighboring suburb. Plus there are more townhomes, so they would have more money.

12/15/2005 10:01:34 AM

Quote :

"Claim: public schools in better areas receive more money than public schools in ghetto. (Say, we're talking about the same city, e.g. Chicago.) "

yeah so.......

i don't see the big deal. the people make 80K a year in the suberb and putting more money into the school system, than johnny cracksmoker in the ghetto. i think the people's kids who pay more money deserve higher funding in their schools than people who put less into the schools. its all a continuation of distribution of income.

and people wonder why they to have private school vouchers

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 10:14 AM. Reason : l]

12/15/2005 10:14:42 AM

every person that isnt in a nice area does crack and doesnt deserve an equal education

12/15/2005 10:29:27 AM

Quote :

"and people wonder why they to have private school vouchers"

12/15/2005 12:05:38 PM

So it took like three replies for it to turn political.

12/15/2005 12:11:45 PM

haha i love how everyone in the burbs is a hard working person who doesnt do anything wrong and everyone is the ghetto is a crazy smoking gang banging nig.

hooray for Emerica

12/15/2005 12:14:38 PM

Uhm, can anybody answer the question?

Again, two different schools, say in Wake country. Do they get equal funding?

12/15/2005 1:58:19 PM

within the county i think what the school gets depends on the number of students but i cant find anything to confirm that

12/15/2005 2:02:21 PM

It depends on how the system is set up. In Asheville for instance the county schools are in a separate system from the city schools. In this case the funding for the city vs. county schools can differ. This comes into play for big cities like Washington and New York. The middle and upper class families flee to the suburbs where they can isolate their children from the "undesireables". The rich people leave, and with them leaves property tax revenue. The shitty city schools get worse, and the suburban schools get richer. This is basically what's been happening for the last 50 years.

12/15/2005 2:17:30 PM

The city of Raleigh and Wake County schools are now part of the same system. It is why school relocations stories are big in the news lately. Maybe they even did it to push some Raleigh generated revenue to the outlying communities.

I'd say property tax. I went to a school in a rural area. My high school was like an elementary school in Wake County. I'd guess that they don't have as much funding because there aren't as many houses/vehicles to tax. Plus the houses are not worth as much as a house in the city.

I have no idea. Maybe larger cities divide the schools into several school systems? Where the school systems on the poor side of town suffer because they don't get as much property tax revenue?

Oh well. The lottery is going to fix all this, right?

Quote :

"The property tax is higher for a townhouse in Baltimore than a house in a neighboring suburb. Plus there are more townhomes, so they would have more money."

Just making stuff up here...
If there were 10.000 homes that were worth an average of $500.000 that were being taxed at a very low rate they would still generate more revenue than 20.000 homes worth an average of $150.000 taxed at a higher rate.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 3:15 PM. Reason : -]

12/15/2005 3:04:04 PM

OK, but if it's Wake country, shouldn't all schools get the same funding? I used to live in Hedingham, which is a golf community in East Raleigh. If you have never seen it, it's not like a totally upscale place, but it's still a golf community, meaning at least middle-middle class. Yet school buses would routinely drop off only black kids. I didn't have a kid of school age, so schools were never an issue for us, but apparently East Raleigh's public schools suck. Our friends who also lived there had to drive to North Raleigh every day to drop and pick their son from school.

So how come schools in North Raleigh are better? Some websites suggest schools are funded directly (through some education programs I assume) AND through property taxes. I guess the former might be the same for all schools, yet the latter clearly depends on the area.

12/15/2005 3:11:50 PM

Well, to give you a sense of just how messed up things are in Wake county... I lived in Raleigh for a year or so a long time ago. They bussed me all they way across town to a school in a predominantly black community even though there was a school I could have gone to less than 2 miles away. Bussing me over there took a couple of hours, I could have walked to the other school.

I think they did it to fit some sort of race quota... yeah, back in the day. Maybe that is still part of their reasoning.

Isn't Ligon one of the best Middle Schools in the state? It is not exacly on the best side of town. Ligon might be an anomaly though. A deliberate way of trying to shoot down any "ghetto schools get less funding" argument. Maybe Ligon isn't in the ghetto. It has been a long time.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 3:24 PM. Reason : -]

12/15/2005 3:24:29 PM

It's also worth pointing out that well-off people have more time and money to contribute to things associated with the school board, including helping other peoples' campaigns or running themselves. You don't see a lot of poor people on the school board. Meaning that the affluent have a disproportionately large sway over where money goes.

12/15/2005 3:53:44 PM

Another facet of the good schools vs. bad schools issue is the quality of teachers. Schools in nicer areas (read: whiter) get the more qualified teachers while the urban schools struggle to fill positions.

12/15/2005 4:04:56 PM

The only example I can think of (and know about) is SRHS in Wake County. A new school put in the "ghetto", but was probably the most well funded in the county. Granted it is a magnet school, which greatly changes the composition of people attending.

Whether this is an exception to the rule, or whatever, I have no idea.

12/15/2005 4:17:16 PM

yeah that bussing shit sucks.

i'm from matthews NC (outside of charlotte) and had to attend East Mecklenburg 99-03. on the way to east i had to drive past NC-51.

if i took a left their was a high school 1.5 miles down the road. if i took a right their was another high school 2 miles down the road (~1 mile from my house). instead i had to keep driving straight anohter 7 miles to get to East.

12/15/2005 5:26:21 PM

Quote :

"Oh well. The lottery is going to fix all this, right?"

hell no. teachers who not more than a year ago were praising the lottery and how it would cure all our problems are now saying "well, this isn't going to be all that great. keep shoveling money to us!"

Quote :

"Granted it is a magnet school, which greatly changes the composition of people attending."

yep. that means that more black people go to the school. they should change the word "magnet" to "black magnet"

12/16/2005 1:44:15 AM

Quote :

"yeah its property tax revenue"

This si true, property taxes primarily pay for education. Rrl areas have less valuable property so there's fewer tax dollars to go around.

Quote :

"Oh well. The lottery is going to fix all this, right?"

Anyone who believes this is fooling themselves. About the only reason NC should have a lottery is to tap into a new market, since we have NC residents playing other state's lotteries. Yes any money we make can go to education, but what happens when the state starts reallocating money already funding education? In the end the schools get the same amount of money and still get screwed....

12/16/2005 10:41:29 AM

^^, ^

I posted the "Oh well. The lottery is going to fix all this, right?"

Maybe you guys should invest in a sarcasm detector for holidaymas.

12/16/2005 10:45:56 AM

Quote :

"johnny cracksmoker in the ghetto."

all poor people smoke crack? hmph! learn something new every day!

12/16/2005 10:47:47 AM

Quote :

"all poor people smoke crack? hmph! learn something new every day!"

I know you aren't gonna pull this crap just one day after getting your panties in a bunch over the very same thing said to you. I guess we'll just have to go with your defence for him too...

Quote :

"Quote : "Yes, because that is what every single black person had to endure in those times." i don't recall saying that... OH, THAT'S BECAUSE i DIDN'T"

12/16/2005 11:54:31 AM

There are a few reasons:

1) Property taxes are a big factor, but that mainly is for comparison between different school districts than schools within the same district.

2) scottncst8's teacher quality argument is also dead-on. Most teachers don't want to go to "ghetto" schools, and a lot of the ones that are there spend their time trying to get out ASAP.

3) You also have budget priorities -- using Wake County as an example, a lot of the growth has been in the north and west so that's where most of the new schools have gone. By default new schools are almost always considered "better" by both parents and faculty.

Charlotte-Mecklenburg has actually had some funny history with this, with flocks of white parents trying to get their kids into brand new schools and then pulling kids out a few years later when there were too many poor blacks for their "enlightened" tastes.

4) the biggest funding discrepancy IIRC is the level of parent involvement through charitable giving, PTA, etc. A lot of the affluent parents either participate directly, or make up for their absence by cutting large checks to these groups. The groups then buy things like technology for classrooms, uniforms for the band or sports teams, registration fees to go on trips, etc.

It greatly expands the opportunities available for students, and was/is one of the central arguments behind bussing for "socioeconomic diversity" -- the poor kids can get some tangential benefit from the rich parents cutting checks to the PTA.

---

Quote :

"aaronburro: yep. that means that more black people go to the school. they should change the word "magnet" to "black magnet""

You do realize that nearly all magnet schools in North Carolina attract whites to "black" schools, right?

[Edited on December 16, 2005 at 1:55 PM. Reason : ---]

12/16/2005 1:53:05 PM

Quote :

"yep. that means that more black people go to the school. they should change the word "magnet" to "black magnet""

For SRHS, it meant more white people went there. The school was located in an area that was at least 90% black. Blacks there only made up 40% of the student body, though.

12/16/2005 1:59:56 PM

Someone did a study in Seattle. They pumped money into a lower income elementary school for a good many years. These students still did not learn/test at the same level as their wealthier counterparts and did not really improve against themselves. The study suggests that the ability to succeed in school begins before kindergarden and that the kids did not have the proper after school support to make a difference.

On the other hand, Washington DC has started a public boarding school for lower income, at risks youth. These students are doing remarkably well compared to their classmates at their prior high school. Most are graduating and going to college with AP credits.

[Edited on December 19, 2005 at 8:11 PM. Reason : tdg beat me to it]

12/19/2005 8:10:13 PM

Isn't school funding based on school districts?

I guess the best example I could think of is say...the ACC.

When one team goes to a bowl game, the money is split up between each member of the conference.

Does it not work that way with districts? All the money collected from property taxes in a school's area is combined with all the other schools' collected money, then divided equally. So if one school is in the "rich part of town", they would still receive the same amount of money as the school in the "ghetto"

12/19/2005 9:57:45 PM

Quote :

"the ability to succeed in school begins before kindergarden and that the kids did not have the proper after school support to make a difference."

i.e. parental involvement is one of, if not THE, biggest influence on a child's success in school.

^ That may be true for funding derived from property taxes, but money raised by a school's PTA or through candy bar fund raisers probably stays at the school.

[Edited on December 20, 2005 at 10:17 AM. Reason : sp]

12/20/2005 10:16:55 AM

I think TGD hit it on the mark.

For schools within the same school district, they should be recieving the same amount of money per student. In theory therefore, spending is equal. Yet there are a few things that create inequality:

1) The greatest growth is in the affluent suburbs. Since this is where the new construction is, logically new school construction is going to be here as well. Therefore, the newer schools with the newer equipment and facilities are going to be focused around the better off.

2) PTA spending makes a HUGE difference. Affluent parents tend to pour a lot of money into the schools. With a rich base, schools also have a larger pool to fundraise from. I know some schools up in the greater DC area that have rediculous facilities thanks to their parents. Projectors, new band uniforms, computers in the classroom, even minor facilities renovation. It all adds up and frees money in the school for other items.

One school system attempted to reallocate money to poorer schools, essentially spreading the PTA budget across the whole system. The backlash from parents was furious and fundraising took a harsh blow. While it may not be fair, it is understandable: if you're giving money to the schools, you want to make sure it's going to the benefit of your own children.

3) There are some really jacked up setups as well with regards to school systems. While Wake may have a unified school system, I know St. Louis county, which encompasses the St. Louis metropolitan area, there are 25 different school systems based in a different suburb. This creates a tremendous inequality between the schools of the City of St. Louis, considered by some as one of the worst systems in the country, versus those of more affluent suburbs like Parkway, Kirkwood, Clayton, and Webster Groves, who's systems rank easily in the top 100 in the United States.

To understand just how messed up this is, anyone not from St. Louis would not realise that as they drive around "the city", they are probably switching towns every five minutes. Heck, even though I officially live in the city of "Chesterfield", the post office accepts both Chesterfield and St. Louis for my address. For St. Louis, the difference between suburbs to an outside observer would be more like neighborhoods in Raleigh. When I first moved to the city, I thought they were neighborhoods and not independent municipalities.

12/20/2005 10:48:43 AM