http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

Quote :

"Palestinian PM quits after apparent Hamas win Peace efforts in doubt; Hamas says recognizing Israel ‘not on our agenda’ RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia and his Cabinet ministers submitted their resignations Thursday as the Islamic militant group Hamas appeared to have captured a large majority of seats in the Palestinian elections -- a shocking upset sure to throw Middle East peacemaking into turmoil. "This is the choice of the people. It should be respected," Qureia said. "If it's true (the results), then the president should ask Hamas to form a new government. For me, personally, I sent my resignation." Meanwhile, a senior Hamas official said recognizing Israel and negotiations with it are “not on our agenda.” “Negotiations with Israel is not on our agenda,” said Mushir al-Masri, who won election in his home district in the northern Gaza Strip. “Recognizing Israel is not on the agenda either now.” The United States and European Union both label Hamas a terrorist organization. Toward a new government Under the law, Abbas must ask the largest party in the new parliament -- presumably Hamas -- to form the next government. Abbas was elected separately a year ago and remains president. Hamas said before the election it does not want to govern alone, and would prefer to bring Fatah into a coalition. Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said Thursday that the group will declare its intentions after official results are announced later in the day. Israel and the United States have said they would not deal with a Hamas-led Palestinian government. Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas has said he would step down if he could no longer pursue his peace agenda with Israel. Palestinian election officials told The AP on condition of anonymity that Hamas had won a large majority of the 66 seats up for grabs in electoral districts in the West Bank and Gaza. Half the seats in Wednesday's parliament vote were chosen on a national list and the other half by districts. The Central Election Commission said the vote count had not been completed and that it would make an official announcement at 7 p.m. Thursday. Hamas' top candidate Ismail Haniyeh earlier said the group had won about 70 total seats in the 132-seat parliament, based on reporting by Hamas activists who observed the counting in the polling stations. Later in the day, another Hamas official, speaking to The AP on condition of anonymity, said the number had risen to at least 75. Officials with Fatah conceded that Hamas had won about 70 total seats. They also spoke on condition of anonymity because counting in some districts was continuing. Initial exit polls on Wednesday night had forecast a slight edge for Fatah, with Hamas coming in a strong second. The polls predicted that neither Hamas nor Fatah would have enough seats to form a government alone, and would have to rely on smaller parties to form a coalition. The discrepancy between the exit polls and the results provided by officials on Thursday was apparently due to voting in districts, where Hamas was apparently able to capitalize on divisions within Fatah. A senior Fatah member, Saeb Erekat, said he could not confirm the unofficial results, but blamed Israel's refusal to resume peace talks with a Fatah-led government for the party's poor showing. "Israel has declared us non-partners about four years ago and they were not speaking to our elected president," he told Israel Army Radio. "Everybody was blaming Fatah for every mistake in the world. Everybody was tying our hands and our legs and throwing us into the sea. And now I think all these things, including our mistakes in Fatah, led to this result." Israel won't accept armed Hamas Acting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Wednesday, before Hamas claimed victory, that Israel cannot trust a Palestinian leadership in which the Islamic group has a role, according to a statement by his office. "Israel can't accept a situation in which Hamas, in its present form as a terror group calling for the destruction of Israel, will be part of the Palestinian Authority without disarming," Olmert told U.S. Sen. Joseph Biden in a meeting, according to Olmert's office. "I won't hold negotiations with a government that does not stick to its most basic obligation of fighting terror." Israel is willing to help the Palestinians and Abbas "a great deal" but only if they crack down on militants, Olmert said. Israel has repeatedly asked Abbas to force Hamas and other militant groups to disarm but Abbas has refused, warning such an act could cause civil war. Hamas has committed dozens of suicide bombings against Israel. Bush told The Wall Street Journal in an interview Wednesday that the United States will not deal with Hamas until it renounces its position calling for the destruction of Israel. The election Wednesday was the Palestinians' first truly competitive vote, with Hamas contesting a parliamentary vote for the first time and winning considerable clout. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians flooded polling stations throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip for a vote that would determine how Palestinians wanted to be governed and whether they would pursue negotiations or confrontation with Israel. © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed."

As recently as yesterday, Hamas was projected to win only about a third of the 132 seats in the Palestinian parliament and now they take over half. Talk about a swing vote, eh? What's more alarming is that the Fatah party isn't even alleging voter fraud. At least not yet.

Now we're faced with the unfortunate predicament of having a ruling secular political party replaced by a terrorist organization that's still committed to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic theocracy in the region. Kinda makes me wish the administration had played a bigger role in promoting the peace process.

So how long until the shit hits the fan? Is this...it? Are we about to see the dust blown off the world's nuclear arsenal?



Ashes to ashes, I guess.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 5:39 AM. Reason : ...]

1/26/2006 5:30:08 AM

i must have wandered into the soap box by mistake

1/26/2006 5:42:34 AM

It's interesting getting to actually watch a story like this evolve among the news outlets. A comparison of the election outcome as reported by its news source:

MSNBC - "Palestinian PM quits after apparent Hamas win"
CNN - "Palestinian government resigns in wake of apparent Hamas win"
Reuters - "Hamas wins upset victory in Palestinian election"
WaPo - "Hamas Declares Victory In Palestinian Elections"
NY Times - "Official results have not been announced, but the Islamic militant group Hamas appears to have captured a majority of seats in the legislative elections."
ABC News - "Hamas Claims Victory: PM Quits"
CBS News - "Hamas On Verge Of Victory"
BBC - "Palestinian chief Ahmed Qurei announces his resignation, amid strong signs Hamas has won the election."
Le Monde - (roughly) "Qoreï resigns, Hamas to form the new government"
NPR - "unofficial exit polls show the ruling Fatah movement winning more than 40 percent of the vote, with the Islamist group Hamas garnering more than 30 percent"
Fox News - Fatah "retains control of parliament"

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 7:01 AM. Reason : ...]

1/26/2006 6:46:45 AM

axis of evil - iran, north korea, palestine?

1/26/2006 7:27:23 AM

"Bad News Everyone..."

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 7:38 AM. Reason : -]

1/26/2006 7:38:10 AM

The shit has officially hit the fan.

1/26/2006 7:40:25 AM

let the jews fight 'em and fund the war from here.

it's time for them to have a showdown.

1/26/2006 8:00:05 AM

It might not end up being so bad. Supposedly folks for Hamas 'coz they wanted social services, not because they wanted to destroy Israel.

1/26/2006 8:18:30 AM

damn, that is bad news.

I swear to God, that was about the dumbest, most self-defeating political move I've seen made by anyone outside our country's Libertarian Party.

Furthermore, what's the deal with Israel's gov't? Assuming Sharon never retakes the helm, will Olmert become the permanent PM, or will they have an election? If it's the latter, it's not hard to see where that will (and in my opinion, should) go, is it?

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 8:29 AM. Reason : ^i read that they kinda pulled a Canada...were just pissed @ corruption/failure of the Fatah party]

1/26/2006 8:28:40 AM

someone embed The Final Countdown

1/26/2006 8:30:18 AM

Eh, some people considered the PLO a terrorist organization too.

As part of an elected government, Hamas may well chill out.

1/26/2006 8:32:02 AM

They don't plan to change any part of their agenda, including the destruction of Israel.

What amount of "chilling out" do you expect to counterbalance that grave a platform?

1/26/2006 8:34:35 AM

Talk is cheap. According to some d00d on NPR, polls show most Palestinians want some kind of settlement with Israel. They can say whatever they want now, but this is a big change for them. They won't moderate instantly, but unless public opinion shifts greatly, they probably will sooner or later.

1/26/2006 8:38:11 AM

It's that sooner part that I think you're not looking at hard enough. I have no doubts that if they can go 3-4 years without provoking Israel or the United States into attacking them that they'd moderate. That's a monumental if, though.

In fact, I'll be surprised if they can make it 2 years without provoking an Israeli or American attack.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 8:43 AM. Reason : more honest]

1/26/2006 8:42:35 AM

American attack? Aren't we already overextended?

I guess we could always have the robots shoot missile at 'em, though.

1/26/2006 8:45:54 AM

GoldenViper wins this thread a few posts ago.

The shit will never hit the fan, at least not as a result of this election. This is a good thing for the entire region.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 8:47 AM. Reason : ---]

1/26/2006 8:47:36 AM

what did we think was going to happen when hamas' primary slogan was something along the lines of:

Israel and America vote against us, how do you vote?

1/26/2006 8:48:07 AM

i must have wandered into the soap box by mistake

1/26/2006 9:28:05 AM

this, along with a nuclear iran, means trouble. WWIII yall, i may well end up back in the army yet

1/26/2006 9:46:51 AM

Quote :

"The Associated Press reports Hamas supporters are clashing with Fatah loyalists outside Palestinian parliament, with both sides throwing stones and breaking windows."

1/26/2006 9:58:09 AM

I heard some more about this on the BBC just a few minutes ago. In general, the experts thought this could end up being a good thing, while the d00d from Israel seemed rather pissed off.

1/26/2006 10:02:10 AM

OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! AAAIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!1

1/26/2006 1:31:21 PM

Why assume shit?

Why not engage these guys in diplomatic dialogue first?

Give them a stake in not wanting to blow shit up.





The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend.

1/26/2006 1:37:51 PM

you people

1/26/2006 2:28:25 PM

Analysts are speculating that this is a mixed victory for Hamas. They were not prepared to take complete control of the government, and now they're going to have to figure out how to play the game on the international stage. They will learn very quickly that they cannot run a foreign policy based on pure ideology. In many ways, this is a classic case of a group that's always been in opposition suddenly becoming the leadership. They will have to change if they're going to make any progress for the Palestinian cause.

Unless Hamas moderates their stance, the United States and the European Union have already stated that they would "not deal with" their government. What this translates to is a cut off of critical aid and some sense of international legitimacy that keeps the Palestinian territories running.

In addition, Palestinians want some sort of resolution with Israel. They know that wiping out Israel is no longer an option. They know that the only way their lives will get better is to find some sort of peace with them. If Hamas fails to deliver anything with regards to both social services and improvements in their foreign standing, they'll be out soon enough.

What we should wait for is to see how Hamas handles its first hundred days in power. If they show no signs of moderation or compromise, then I would expect some serious chaos.

1/26/2006 3:15:43 PM

^ I think that you are giving them way to much credit. I don't think that long-term consequences of their actions worry them an awful lot.





Or maybe they just think that throwing rocks at the opposition party is the first stepping stone to peace.

1/26/2006 3:49:53 PM

Quote :

"super ben: Or maybe they just think that throwing rocks at the opposition party is the first stepping stone to peace. "

Not to disagree...but it's not like Republicans and Democrats both haven't done worse just here in the good 'ole US of A...

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 3:57 PM. Reason : ---]

1/26/2006 3:56:54 PM

^ We have back-room political conspiracies, they have violent mobs. At least we generally appear more civilized

1/26/2006 4:01:53 PM

Quote :

"They will learn very quickly that they cannot run a foreign policy based on pure ideology"

George W. Bush: proving you can run a foreign policy based on pure ideology since Sept 12, 2001

1/26/2006 4:50:17 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, what's the deal with Israel's gov't? Assuming Sharon never retakes the helm, will Olmert become the permanent PM, or will they have an election? If it's the latter, it's not hard to see where that will (and in my opinion, should) go, is it? "

Israel is having elections in March. And yes, Netanyahu will win in a landslide the way things are going.

I can't imagine that there will be any advancement in peace between a Likud hard-liner and whoever the hell the Hamas leaders are. I would expect to see another intifada pretty soon when Israel takes the gloves off. Iran, with it's nuclear ambitions and crazy President, is the wild card in this whole thing.

1/26/2006 5:07:09 PM

Quote :

"George W. Bush: proving you can run a foreign policy based on pure ideology since Sept 12, 2001"

President Bush doesn't even follow through with the ideology he preaches. I have no clue as to what he's running his foreign policy on.

My favorite quote had to be this from al Jazeera in a Q&A session:

Quote :

"Q: The US has pushed heavily for democracy in the Middle East. How did it react to the Hamas victory? A: George Bush, the US president, said elections sometime bring unwelcome results..."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6494B7A8-FCC7-4615-A206-04C76D60D0D4.htm

Just think about this for a moment.

1/26/2006 5:41:18 PM

Good news for the region, huh.

Why? Because their agenda gives Israel the impetus to flatten Palestine once and for all?

Or are you saying, as I suspect you are, that now they'll get to see up close how incompetently a terrorist organization runs a government?

Quote :

"Aren't we already overextended?"

From the reports and expectations I've read, the drawdown begins this year. It's certainly not out of the question.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 5:57 PM. Reason : 3]

1/26/2006 5:41:54 PM

Quote :

"Gamecat: Or are you saying, as I suspect you are, that now they'll get to see up close how incompetently a terrorist organization runs a government?"

[no], I'm saying you can't effectively run a government if you spend your time trying to blow shit up.

For Hamas, it forces them to devote more energy to public services than annihilating Israel. Especially if they want to get re-elected. For Fatah, it forces them to devote more energy to public services instead of being corrupt motherfuckers. Especially if they want to get elected.

It's the inevitable nature of participatory democracy. How anyone could view this as a bad development is beyond me...

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 6:21 PM. Reason : ---]

1/26/2006 6:19:50 PM

Hamas is already up to their neck in providing social services in Palestine. How do you think they have so much support? I mean, the corruption of the Fatah party, sure. But that alone is not enough to win an election (at least, you'd better hope it isn't).

Quote :

"[no], I'm saying you can't effectively run a government if you spend your time trying to blow shit up."

Really? That's news to...you?

Quote :

"How anyone could view this as a bad development is beyond me..."

Let's start with this one: It completely haults the peace process.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 6:29 PM. Reason : ...]

1/26/2006 6:26:12 PM

Im mostly worried about our own foreign policy towards the new Palestinian government and whether it will help or hinder the peace process.

1/26/2006 6:32:41 PM

Quote :

"Let's start with this one: It completely haults the peace process."

well, some would just view it as a good thing in that it'll just help go ahead and get the inevitable over with!

1/26/2006 6:35:25 PM

Quote :

"Gamecat: Hamas is already up to their neck in providing social services in Palestine. How do you think they have so much support?"

No shit, but now they have to do it through the organs of government instead of their private charities. And the social services their "already up to their neck" providing don't encompass nearly everything Palestinian voters want and are going to demand of them.

I mean really, what about this is hard to understand? What makes Palestinian voters any different than anyone else?

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: Really? That's news to...you?"

Cute. Really.

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: Let's start with this one: It completely haults the peace process."

On the assumption that it actually happens, and also on the assumption that you can actually have a peace process when the other side wasn't exactly engaging in good faith negotiation...

1/26/2006 6:46:36 PM

hahahahaha

designated terrorists
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 7:44 PM. Reason : 46546]

1/26/2006 7:42:53 PM

This election result made Benjamin Netanyahu smile. It delivered him the Prime Ministership. The Israeli elections soon are going hard right.

Whoever in Bush's confidence told him that the way to get peace in the Middle East was democracy deserves to get fired and dragged through the streets by his knuckles.

South Lebanon: won by Hezbollah
Iran: presidential election won by a self-proclaimed reformer, one of which was nuclear power was a deterrent to U.S. invasion
Iraq: fundamentalist Shia win, the U.S. candidate gets soundly beaten in fourth place
Egypt: Muslim Party gaining in strength
Palestine: won by Hamas

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 7:55 PM. Reason : .]

1/26/2006 7:51:23 PM

What we need is to just get rid of all those Middle East democracies. Olive-skinneded people don't know how to respect voting rights...

1/26/2006 8:27:18 PM

What's the difference between these Middle East democracies and the theocracies they replaced?

Quote :

"TGD: No shit, but now they have to do it through the organs of government instead of their private charities. And the social services their "already up to their neck" providing don't encompass nearly everything Palestinian voters want and are going to demand of them."

But what makes you think they won't be able to provide them at the same time they're still running what is essentially an armed resistance against Israel? Really, what makes Palestinian leaders any different than anyone else?

What's stopping Hamas, who gets to form the new government, from just recasting their private charities as government agencies?

Quote :

"TGD: What makes Palestinian voters any different than anyone else?"

What makes you ask this question?

Because I'm not seeing anywhere that I implied that they were any different than anyone else.

Quote :

"TGD: Cute. Really."

The picture? Or the fact that you don't think they're capable of multitasking while governing?

In addition to their own arms, Hamas now controls the Palestinian security forces as well. What's preventing them from being able to use that arm of government while providing new social services?

Quote :

"TGD: On the assumption that it actually happens, and also on the assumption that you can actually have a peace process when the other side wasn't exactly engaging in good faith negotiation..."

And what the fuck have the Palestinians been doing in bad faith that the Israelis have not?

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 9:50 PM. Reason : ...]

1/26/2006 9:48:56 PM

I say we pull out, and nuke the site from orbit.

Its the only way to be sure.

1/26/2006 9:58:41 PM

Quote :

"Olive-skinneded people don't know how to respect voting rights..."

Mediterraneans are olive-skinned too, buddy.

1/26/2006 10:06:36 PM

Quote :

" The so-called Quartet of the United Nations, U.S., European Union and Russia ``calls on all parties to respect the results of the election and the outcome of the Palestinian constitutional process so that it may unfold in an atmosphere of calm and security,'' a statement issued from New York said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aVkEGwshCV5Y&refer=top_world_news

that's right, even if you think they'll destroy the world, don't go declaring war on them, they do represent the majority of a somewhat democratic body and don't deserve an alarmist reaction.

1/26/2006 10:46:03 PM

I'm starting to get pretty damn concerned about another war between israel and one of its neighbors. They're going to start doing rash stuff if this stuff keeps happening on their borders. (What would it be, middle eastern war #7 involving Israel and one of its neighbors?)

1/26/2006 10:53:51 PM

so im thinking "who probably has an interesting take on this? who probably has a lot to say about this news"

then it hit me

a no brainer (literally)

this guy: http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

1/26/2006 10:58:11 PM

Michael Savage was hilarious for the short period of time that I listened to him on the radio, but I wasn't sure if I was supposed to take everything he said seriously.

1/26/2006 10:59:06 PM

yes, that michael savage added about nothing to this thread

1/26/2006 10:59:47 PM

thats the point, its downright humorous

1/26/2006 11:00:55 PM

I heard an ex-US diplomat interviewed on NPR.
He thought the Hamas gov't will probably behave for the near future. He said that Hamas and the PLO are financially bankrupt and probably won't get much financial support from Iran. So they will have to tone down the rhetoric so as not to upset those countries with nice fat wallets.

It's one thing to be the angry outsiders, it's quite another to be in charge and responsible for running all the boring day-in day-out aspects of a country. Without any wealth, their hands may be full just trying to survive.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 11:05 PM. Reason : sp]

1/26/2006 11:04:31 PM