80 local brothels:
tonight at 5:30 WRAL ABC 11


Some cops got "in trouble" for letting prostitutes give them blow jobs to "ensure prosecution":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021701982.html


Previous threads:
I see what ya'll mean about salisburyboy:
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=81389
This one's a lot better:
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=140333




Seriously though,
besides for religious opposition, (which isn't valid political opposition and therefore shouldn't be regarded as relevant,) why oppose the legalization of prostitution?

If there's a good political argument against it's legalization, I don't think I've heard it.



Let's get started:
--------------------

Legal ≠ Moral

Religious opposition isn't valid political opposition and therefore shouldn't be regarded as relevant to matters of law. This is not the United States of God.

Prostitutes are not victims if prostitution is legal and regulated. Therefore, it's the prohibition that victimizes them.

"Johns" are also victimized by prostitution prohibition because they get STD's. Legal prostitutes are regularly screened for STD's.

The sex trade and human smuggling are helped by prohibitions on legal prostitution.

"Pimps" who mistreat their prostitutes or who are involved with gangs and crime would all but disappear if prostitution prohibition was ended. If it's legal and safe elsewhere, why go to them?

2/20/2006 4:00:29 PM

"Religious opposition isn't valid political opposition"

Since when has the majority of America viewed things this way?

I'm not saying "God says it should be this way" is a valid political argument, but if in your first breath you say you don't want to discuss the main opposition to your position, then you've excluded from the discussion the very people you need to convince.

A better first move would be to say “I'm open to all opposition, but if you are going to offer a religious based opposition then make sure its clearly thought out and a well laid out argument so I can have a chance to try to rebuke it.”

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 4:13 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2006 4:06:47 PM

i think prostitution should be prohibited for the same reason i think there should be child labor laws and laws about working conditions in general

2/20/2006 4:08:47 PM

Quote :

"Legal prostitutes are regularly screened for STD's."

Pro athletes are also screened for illegal substances.....but not always punished if caught. I also believe that legalized prostitution would open doors to many other bad things in society......more divorces, higher drug use, more illegitimate children and so on

2/20/2006 4:34:50 PM

If it involves mutually consenting human adults I don't see the point of sex laws.

2/20/2006 4:47:52 PM

mutually consenting children should be allowed to work in sweat shops

2/20/2006 4:48:32 PM

I think the idea is that children, who have less cognitive abilities, have less ability consent whereas adult men and women can consent.

2/20/2006 4:53:28 PM

^^^^^^
I'm open to all opposition, but if you are going to offer a religious based opposition then make sure its clearly thought out and a well laid out argument underlying logic doesn't rely on your faith based perspective being right and any others' faith based perspective being wrong so I can have a chance to try to rebuke it.

IOW, please offer any religious based opposition that isn't based exclusively on your religion, but rather is based on ideas which can non-hypocritically be held by members of all religions, past and present, including atheists, agnostics, and everything in between.

IOW, please offer any religious based opposition that uses an approach to logic that is the same for everyone on Earth or otherwise, past or present, no matter how their faith factors into it.

IOW, please offer any religious based opposition that uses universal logic.

Wait a second, the only universal logic is the logic of math. You know, math--the logic that computer programmers, scientists, philosophers and lawyers use. It requires proof. But wait, religious based logic is, well, faith based--as in, you can't prove it. Religious based anything is faith based and therefore, by definition, can't use universal logic.

IOW, please offer any religious based opposition that isn't religious based.

IOW, if all you have to offer is religious based opposition, then I, for one, will regard your opposition as irrelevant and ignore that portion of your post.

Legal ≠ Moral

Religious opposition isn't valid political opposition and therefore shouldn't be regarded as relevant to matters of law.

(I'm aware that my atheocentric perspective is unpopular, but hey, Copernicus's heliocentric perspective was unpopular too....)

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 4:55 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2006 4:54:56 PM

Quote :

"I think the idea is that children, who have less cognitive abilities, have less ability consent whereas adult men and women can consent."

mutually consenting women should be allowed to work in hot textile factories with no fire escapes

^um there was no need to repost that, no one has mentioned religion

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 4:58 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2006 4:57:20 PM

^Triangle Shirtwaist?

2/20/2006 5:24:17 PM

I thought "Copernicus's heliocentric perspective" wasn't much of an issue because it was presented more as a different way of doing the math, rather than a claim for how things actually were.

Although I'm kind of side tracking there... I don't mean to suggest that you walk around on eggshells around religious peoples sensitivities at all.

All I am saying is take on a wider range of arguments. If someone says God says premise A & B & C which leads me to conclusion X, then you would have more room to argue. If you could show that A & B & C don’t really lead to X, or maybe even that they lead to some conclusion that’s good for you, then you’d help your case. (or if you can point out that God also said premise D which changes things that could help too)

That just seems like this extra layer gives you more of a chance to change minds even among people who oppose this religious reasons.

2/20/2006 5:49:40 PM

Quote :

"consenting women should be allowed to work in hot textile factories with no fire escapes"

Construction, the military, and lots of other jobs are difficult and carry risks. What makes prostitution more like working in a textile factory than like working working in construction?

Your examples seem to be centered around society keeping people from preying on the week (women & children), but I think the allowing prostitution discussion should problably be centered around adults (of any sex).

2/20/2006 5:56:00 PM

I personally think prostitution should be legal. In fact some forms of prostitution are already legal. What about all these people who have sex with guys that they don't really like because the guy will take them out on dates, etc, etc. If people know the dangers of prostitution and are willing to pay, then I don't understand the problem. Sure religious people may argue that it's advocating extra sin, but overeating is a sin so the whole country is going to hell anyway...

2/20/2006 6:03:05 PM

Quote :

"mutually consenting women should be allowed to work in hot textile factories with no fire escapes"

As long as they're made aware in advance of those working conditions, I don't see what the problem is if they still give their consent.

Now if the women were lied to or tricked into thinking that the job/working conditions would be safer than they actually are, then we've clearly got a problem.

2/20/2006 6:11:05 PM

what kind of prostitution is ok hempster?

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 6:16 PM. Reason : currious]

2/20/2006 6:13:10 PM

Death on the battlefield at 18? Good.

Having sex for money at 18? Bad.

hmm...

2/20/2006 8:06:07 PM

Quote :

"As long as they're made aware in advance of those working conditions, I don't see what the problem is if they still give their consent."

well if you dont see why humane working conditions are important theres really no point debating this

2/20/2006 8:06:47 PM

I don't see how that argument applies here. I don't see anybody arguing that prostitution should be legalized and that working conditions shouldn't be regulated.

2/20/2006 8:08:43 PM

some people's situations force them to take jobs with deplorable conditions. the women working in those sweatshops new conditions were bad, but they still had to take the job. this is why legislation needed to be bad to mandate safe working conditions.

legal prostitution would widely be used by young men and women who are forced into the trade. just because they aren't physically a sex slave does not mean they won't be forced into it. sure some people will truly be consenting adults, but many people will be victimized by the system. to an unconsenting person its a deplorable, degrading life that they should be protected from the same way that someone should be protected from knowingly accepting any job with deplorable conditions

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 8:20 PM. Reason : my medicine is making me woozy, but its mostly coherent i think]

2/20/2006 8:14:19 PM

you're talking about a separate issue entirely.

sex slavery is illegal. sex slavery should remain illegal.

if you want to include safeguards into the system to ensure that none of the workers are sex slaves, by all means do it, but there'd better be more than a gut feeling behind it.

2/20/2006 8:30:07 PM

where does the pimp fall into this scheme?

2/20/2006 8:33:43 PM

legalization of prostitution effectively ends the role of the pimp.

if prostitution were legalized they'd be protected by the police, and could afford to simply hire a private security force if they felt the police were inadequate.

2/20/2006 8:36:36 PM

in that case, I'm against it.

2/20/2006 8:40:31 PM

Oh that's easy

1) Maintanace of the dept that makes sure brothels are up to spec
2) Dealing with shit from religious and others who are against it morally!
3) Policing the legalization is fucking impossible unless it's in a VERY controlled environment... IE 1 area in Nevada.
4) Threat of STD's...

But the big one is #2. It's not worth the harassment and no politician can afford to "vote FOR" this.

See here for more details on just how monitored and stringent the legal prostition is in the US

http://www.sexuality.org/l/workers/nevada.html

2/20/2006 8:40:47 PM

making sense has never really been a prerequisite for good policy, i suppose.

i still think it should be legal, though.

2/20/2006 8:43:23 PM

Quote :

"you're talking about a separate issue entirely. sex slavery is illegal. sex slavery should remain illegal. if you want to include safeguards into the system to ensure that none of the workers are sex slaves, by all means do it, but there'd better be more than a gut feeling behind it."

did you not catch in my post how they would be consenting to the jobs, but shouldnt have to do that
it wouldnt be sex slavery in anyway that you could easily prohibit it

2/20/2006 8:43:49 PM

how would they be forced into it, exactly?

2/20/2006 8:46:25 PM

the same way people are forced to work in sweat shops

i mean why is that illegal? its not like they take the job unknowingly?

2/20/2006 8:48:32 PM

sophist

2/20/2006 8:48:50 PM

do you only troll me on here? i mean im just curious what the extent of your man crush is. do you sit around with one hand down your pants waiting for me to post?

2/20/2006 8:50:18 PM

that's a nonanswer.

how are they forced into prostitution?

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 8:51 PM. Reason : who's forced into sweat shops in america?]

2/20/2006 8:51:03 PM

economic pressures, no other options

2/20/2006 8:51:56 PM

so the legalization of prostitution will close down all the fast food restaurants/government jobs in the America?

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 8:55 PM. Reason : gov't work]

2/20/2006 8:54:33 PM

i'm not trolling you. i'm pointing out the obvious

2/20/2006 8:54:41 PM

mancrush

2/20/2006 8:55:16 PM

just get used to it, guth.

he post-stalks often.

2/20/2006 9:01:19 PM

sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist

2/20/2006 9:02:40 PM

i win

2/20/2006 9:03:37 PM

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sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophistsophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophistsophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist sophist

2/20/2006 9:04:21 PM

i'm still curious about these economic pressures that force people into prostitution. that's like saying economic pressures force people to become drug dealers.

2/20/2006 9:07:47 PM

it is like saying that, but drug dealing isnt degrading and deplorable

2/20/2006 9:09:36 PM

without arguing morals and religion how can you say prostitution is deplorable and degrading

2/20/2006 9:11:51 PM

troll

2/20/2006 9:22:23 PM

Quote :

"What about all these people who have sex with guys that they don't really like because the guy will take them out on dates, etc, etc. "

Technically, in most states it's still illegal to have sex before getting married. Some states still have laws against non-vaginal sex.

Quote :

"some people's situations force them to take jobs with deplorable conditions. the women working in those sweatshops new conditions were bad, but they still had to take the job. this is why legislation needed to be bad to mandate safe working conditions."

(yes)

Quote :

"where does the pimp fall into this scheme?"

The pimp is no longer a solo player, but now the brothel owner/bouncers/bodyguards/government.





To be honest, the only non-religious argument I can think of against this would be the risk to the prostitute. I mean, there are definitely major risks ... so the "johns" of the world don't want STD's, but what if they already have them? If one "john" sleeps with one prostitute, who catches a disease and despite regular testing doesn't catch it until 6 months later, how many other "johns" has she infected unintentionally despite the regulations? Assuming one prostitute has 20 non-duplicate customers ever week for 6 months, that would be 480 potentially infected partners who may or may not sleep with other prostitutes or other private citizens. I'm not saying that this couldn't happen today with prostitution being illegal, but the likelihood seems greater if there's no need to hide from the law.

Compare this to legalization of drugs: clean needles prevents the spread of diseases like AIDS via needles/blood. Clean hoes doesn't prevent anything, and actually may increase it.

2/20/2006 9:26:24 PM

Quote :

"JonHGuth: it is like saying that, but drug dealing isnt degrading and deplorable"

Point is, Guth, nobody's forced to become a drug dealer. Just like nobody, save the victims of the sex slave trade, is forced into prostitution. If the statements are similar, then they are similarly worthless.

Are the degrading and deplorable aspects to being an "actress" in pornography enough to justify prohibiting it?

How can you as a capitalist claim that a person going into prostitution does so because they have no other options?

Quote :

"JonHGuth: some people's situations force them to take jobs with deplorable conditions. the women working in those sweatshops new conditions were bad, but they still had to take the job. this is why legislation needed to be bad to mandate safe working conditions."

Is there some reason why it'd be impossible to mandate safe working conditions for prostitutes?

---

Quote :

"ActOfGod: To be honest, the only non-religious argument I can think of against this would be the risk to the prostitute. I mean, there are definitely major risks ... so the "johns" of the world don't want STD's, but what if they already have them? If one "john" sleeps with one prostitute, who catches a disease and despite regular testing doesn't catch it until 6 months later, how many other "johns" has she infected unintentionally despite the regulations?"

What reason do you have to believe that regular testing wouldn't catch the STD?

How often do situations like this arise in places where prostitution is already legal, like Vegas?

Quote :

"ActOfGod: I'm not saying that this couldn't happen today with prostitution being illegal, but the likelihood seems greater if there's no need to hide from the law."

Not only aren't you saying that it couldn't happen today with prostitution being illegal in most places, but you shouldn't say that it can't happen regardless of the legal status of prostitions anywhere.

This happens all the time with people who aren't prostitutes, and what they do is completely legal.

2/20/2006 9:39:45 PM

Quote :

"Is there some reason why it'd be impossible to mandate safe working conditions for prostitutes?"

yes, because no amount of mandates will make it not degrading

2/20/2006 9:52:56 PM

Quote :

"Gamecat: Are the degrading and deplorable aspects to being an "actress" in pornography enough to justify prohibiting it?"

2/20/2006 9:54:41 PM

the pornography industry is more difficult to get into so there are fewer helpless young men and women
if i found out it was a common thing i would want it made illegal too

2/20/2006 9:59:24 PM

(1) It's medically known that sometimes certain diseases can go undetected for considerable time. I believe HIV has the potential to incubate for up to 6-8 months before it is detectable, but it can still be transmitted prior to detection. It takes at lease 2-3 months before it's even likely to be detectable.

Quote :

"The HIV antibody test (“Aids test”) is only reliable three months after a risk situation. This is the time that is needed for the body to build up specific antibodies to the virus. "

http://www.aids.ch/webEdition/we_cmd.php?we_cmd%5B0%5D=show&we_cmd%5B1%5D=342&we_cmd%5B4%5D=87


(2) Yes, it does. That doesn't negate what I just said. Go check out the pricing on the girls out in Vegas. There aren't too many people who are willing to drop $1000/hour. I looked up the Bunnyranch one time just for shits and giggles, but dayum. Though people with deep pockets can of course still get STD's (duh), presumably these girls have fewer partners so it's easier to keep track, and they make enough money that they can afford any necessary medical treatments. Legalization would probably lead to a decrease in the "going rate" due to market demands, although it's difficult to say for sure where the resting place would be. As we all know, lower margins mean most likely less profit and so on ad nauseum.

2/20/2006 10:00:25 PM

and just to point out, making prostitution legal wouldn't stop illegal prostitutions or sex slavery

2/20/2006 10:02:01 PM