As you guys may recall, i have a new puffer tank...well it's reached that stage where brown algae is trying to take over the tank. From what i've read there really isnt much you can do about it besides starve it to death. So i guess my only real choice is to get a nitrate neutralizer. I'm just a little worried about what all of this stress is going to do to my puffer. Any suggestions?

3/14/2006 7:19:03 PM

as long as your levels dont completly crash overnight he will be fine. What are your nitrate/nitrite lvls at right now?

3/14/2006 8:36:40 PM

3/14/2006 8:51:28 PM

cut down on the hours your lights are on, move away from window or source of sunlight

3/14/2006 9:02:39 PM

you will have some brown algae initially. get some snails and wait it out.

3/14/2006 9:03:17 PM

^^Agreed. Also, urchins do really well taking care of algae. Not sure what you can put with your puffer.

3/14/2006 9:36:38 PM

that's the problem, pretty much anything that eats algae (crabs, snails, urchins) the puffer will attack. Not so much attack as pick at. We tested it with a scarlet crab....he's no longer with us.

I'm probably going to put some nitrate neutralizer in there. Maybe cut down on the time the light is on. Those little diatoms certainly are letting off a lot of oxygen tho

3/14/2006 10:30:37 PM

After the brown will come the red, so you ought to try and figure out how to corral it somehow now.

3/14/2006 10:48:04 PM

How is your skimmer working? How frequently are you doing water changes? What kind of water are you using <source?> ? How much live rock do you have? what kind of lights and how long are they on?

If your system is accumulating nitrates, you need to establish a method that helps control this rather than adding chemicals to your tank every week. More live rock supports bacteria that can convert nitrates to nitrogen. I would not go the route of phosphate/nitrate removal.

On the other hand diatoms are going to happen to new systems--I wouldn't worry too much.
I would be more worried if your tank was already established.
Just make sure you are aggressively skimming and staying on top of those water changes. SHould clear up in two weeks or so.


[Edited on March 14, 2006 at 11:13 PM. Reason : lights]

[Edited on March 14, 2006 at 11:16 PM. Reason : .]

3/14/2006 11:05:11 PM

I have always been very hesitant to place additional chemicals in my tank. It doesn't sound like you have coral but I would still be careful when adding anything but water.

3/14/2006 11:08:52 PM

yeah i definately dont have any live rock... puffers would eat that stuff up.

I was hoping there was another way besides chemicals... but with puffers being non-reef safe the chances are slim.

3/14/2006 11:23:49 PM

Ive never had a puffer but im pretty sure LR is fine. Well, unless puffers actually eat rock. The important stuff on live rock is just bacteria. It a ripoff unless you find someone selling off there rock in the area for $2.50-3 a pound. You can also just get base rock and seed this with a few pounds of live rock.

3/14/2006 11:28:58 PM

Quote :

"yeah i definitely don't have any live rock... puffers would eat that stuff up. "

Where the hell are you getting that info? Your Toby is not going to eat your rock.

They might nip at it trying to go for something else but they aren't trying to eat it. Furthermore this would benefit their teeth--helping to control the growth.
Now certain corals they will eat--they are not reef safe. Some will pick at the corals more than others. But LR is fine.

^There is no decent rock you can buy for 2-$3. I agree that a lot of the LR I have seen for sale around Raleigh is shitty and is not wroth 8-$9/lb . Maybe that is what you meant. But you can find good LR online for about 6$/lb but then you got to pay shipping (around 50lbs). I think that it is worth every dollar to buy better rock. You'll get alot more life.

I just found a 2 inch crab hanging out in my rock( born and raised in my tank). Then I was cleaning the substrate, lifted a rock and saw countless little starfish scurrying around. I swear the longer I have a tank it's less about the fish and more about the odd creatures that I find every day.

[Edited on March 14, 2006 at 11:53 PM. Reason : .]

Quote :

"I was hoping there was another way besides chemicals... but with puffers being non-reef safe the chances are slim."

when you hear people say "reef-safe" they are refering to corals not live rock.

I suggest you re-read my 1st post.--you didn't answer the rest of my questions. I can tell your new and don't know much (no offense we all had to start) but if you want help you need to respond to peoples questions about your system.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 12:02 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 12:03 AM. Reason : .]
----------------------------------
I am going to link to this website again
http://www.wetwebmedia.com

The site is run by Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo among other many respected aquarist. Read every page on this web site and you'll be on your way.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 12:14 AM. Reason : link]

3/14/2006 11:52:25 PM

Quote :

"^There is no decent rock you can buy for 2-$3."

There are often people selling off their live rock due to moving, leaving hobby, or whatever. This is where I have had the best luck and some of my best rock was under $3 a pound from someone that was moving.

Ordering online is the next best thing , and is obviously much faster that hunting for local deals.

3/15/2006 12:21:40 AM

^ I got ya. agree 100%. I wish I had the patience to wait around for good deals like that. LR is one of the most expensive parts of the aquarium.

3/15/2006 12:24:21 AM

If you do decide to go with getting live rock, I highly recommend rock from reefscience.com. Chad is the owner of this company, which is local, and has very nice rock. You can see pictures of it off of http://www.reefscience.com. Usually his rock is less expensive then the rock of other local stores in the area.

3/15/2006 1:38:20 AM

These guys are right. The more LR you have in your tank, the more nitrate/nitrite breaking down bacteria and organisms you have as well. I'd also suggest possibly doing a 10% water change as well... that will help with your brown algae. I know that Down Under and the store off Westinghouse (Fish World) carry pre-mixed salt water... so all you have to do is make sure it's at the right temp and pH before you add. Definitely get a skimmer - I purchased a nano-skimmer just two days ago from Fish World for a really good price... and it's rated for tanks up to 30 gallons. I had a brown algae problem when I first started out my tank... but it went away quickly after I added more sand substrate and LR. If you add more substrate and cut back on how much you're feeding your puffer, you shouldn't have a problem with the cyanobacteria (ie. red algae).

3/15/2006 10:24:53 AM

I got my LR from a friend for free, best way to go.

3/15/2006 10:56:10 AM

i think that what i'm going to do is a water change... Clean the brown algae i have off and replace the water.

I was under the impression i couldnt get live rock because i had a puffer, thanks for clearing that up. I will definately get some live rock then. There's a guy down in wilmington that my roommate gets his live rock from that has some really nice stuff but i'll check out that reef science place first.

3/15/2006 6:05:23 PM

I cleaned the algae off the big peice of fake rock i have in there and got half a dozen zebra crabs which will definately meet their demise soon, but they better work their asses off until then. I also got 1 turbo snail which the puffy is extremely interested in but hasnt decided to peck at him yet. The algae that I cleaned off got cleaned out by the sump system. I asked the advice from Fish World and he suggested I do a 10% water change. So i'll be doing that this weekend.

I also checked out that live rock site and emailed the guy about prices...

thanks for all of the help

3/15/2006 8:22:15 PM

you should be doing a 10% water change weekly. 20% bi-weekly or every third.

a little more if your skimmer is under performing. But excessive water changes is no substitute for an efficient skimmer. I'm talking a full cup of dark brown thick nasty skimmate every other day.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 8:53 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2006 8:51:02 PM

Hmm, where in Wilmington? I've noted an extreme lack of fish stores down there. Only thing I've found is a store that just sells betta bowls and Petco...whose fish conditions are unbearable. If anyone knows of anyone, please do tell.

3/15/2006 9:08:08 PM

This guy in wilmington is an aquarium enthusist, my roommate bought his pump system from him. He has fish tanks everywehre including several ponds outside his house. He sold my roommate some very nice marshall island and figi live rock for 5 bucks a pound.

I checked out fish world today and they had just gotten in a shipment of figi...oh crap i forgot how much they were charging. I think it was more than 5 bucks.

Yesterday I got half a dozen zebra crabs and 1 turbo snail as kinda a test. The crabs survived without harm but I can't really say that much for the turbo snail. I think he's still kicking, he's just missing several chunks. Since the crabs survived I grabbed another dozen. They've been doing a good job cleaning the tank.

i do believe that i made my puffer the happiest puffer in the world by adding the snail and crabs, tho. He's been having a party.

3/17/2006 12:10:42 AM

use RO water

3/17/2006 9:51:30 AM

Ive got a question about wet/dry filters and their usefulness. I have been reading that in a FOWLR system the wet/dry (bio-balls) part of the trickle filter is unnecessary because it actually leads to higher nitrates. Basically a sump, lots of live rock, and a good protein skimmer or two is sufficient for excellent nitrate removal. Anybody have an opinion or personal experience with this? Im planning on building my own sump system but wondering if I should just skip the wet/dry part. I am thinking about putting live rock in the tank and sump with lights on both and one or two protein skimmers and a canister filter.

3/18/2006 12:01:57 AM

With plenty of LR a wet/dry filter is not necessary.

Basically, the wet/dry filter system promotes the bacteria that convert Ammonium(NH3) -> Nitrites(NO2) and Nitrites( NO2) -> Nitrates(NO3); <The Nitrification process.>
Nitrates are the end result of the cycle and just accumulate in your water.

Live Rock promotes the growth of the above mentioned bacteria AND fosters another type of bacteria that thrive in the anaerobic conditions of the pores in the rock. This bacteria will complete the denitrification process by converting Nitrates(No3) -> Nitrogen gas (N2). Which leaves the system by little tiny bubbles.

The problem with wet/dry filters is that they are too efficient. The denitrification process can't keep up with the nitrification. Thus you will have a somewhat rapid accumulation of Nitrates.

So the idea is to go wet/dry--less and keep the system in balance. Note: there will still be a small accumulation of Nitrates depending on your bio-load.

As far as protein skimmers go, they ARE necessary. You should see the shit that my skimmer foams out every day. The process occurs in nature and is necessary if you want a healthy system. You only need ONE--two creates an unnecessary amount of noise and waste space and power. But you need to get a good model and the right size for your system. PM me if you need help picking one out.

I suggest setting up a refugium style system. Read about it and ask if you have any specific question. There are MANY benefits to a refugium system.

[Edited on March 18, 2006 at 12:53 AM. Reason : .]

3/18/2006 12:50:50 AM

i have brown algae in my toilet sometimes

3/18/2006 6:01:40 PM

im liking the refugium alot more and I have a 29gallon tank lying around so I can use that. I read that the refugium needs filtered water so I was thinking of doing something like this.

I have a 75 gallon which is tempered so I would have a hang on the side overflow with prefilter. From the overflow to a sump with micro foam pads, skimmer, heater, and water pump. From the sump to the refugium with live rock, lights, and water pump. Then back to the tank.

Also should I use live sand for the refugium as well and how much? I can put a divider with a square hole half way up the tank so no sand gets into the pump. Also I dont need to actually feed the refugium inhabitants or do I? Thanks for all your help.

3/18/2006 6:43:46 PM

something like that. Kinda sucks you got a tempered aquarium. You might want to consider selling it someone and buying a different one. Really, it's not that expensive compared to the rest of the stuff your going to spend, and can really save yourself a headache later. I would seriously consider this.

maybe even set up a dual display. Buy a new 75gal that you can drill and use that as your main tank and the old 75 as the refugium. Refugiums, if set-up nicely and plumbed well, can be very beautiful. Also, you'll run the lights on the refugium when the main tank is off. Thus you'll always have something to look at. With a large sump you can put to mind at ease and not worry about overflows. Then your 39 can become a hospital tank. This is really overkill though, but I think it'd be cool. I have seen this type of setup before.

Besides that;
Is your 29Gal tempered as well. If not it would be nice to put the return pump outside of the tank--giving you more room inside. The next thing to consider is how much room you have under your stand.

The current trend and IMO best idea so far, is to have the water flow down to the refugium then pass a coarse filter(pre-filter type), into a chamber that contains the skimmer(like a Euro-reef in sump skimmer), then flow through a series of baffles into the refugium, where you have sand and marcoalgae. Then exit and return to the main tank. Though in a 29 gal tank I am not sure if you could find a euro-reef that fits.

To answer a couple of your questions about the refugium:
1. you don't need to purchase live sand. It will become alive in time. Just get some fine grade aragonite. Similar to your main tank though maybe a little finer. And around 4 inches should be fine.
many people put more in the refugium than they would in the main tank.

2.the only inhabitants in the refugium will be pods, snails, and stuff like that. So unless you add something else than you might need to feed it. Otherwise not. Some sandshifting creatures might be nice too.

There is still more research you need to do and things to consider. For example, You need to setup the return pump in such a way that if the water stops flowing from the main tank to the sump the pump will not be able to pump all of the sump water out and overflow your main tank. This is especially true if you use a hang-on-back overflow. YOU WILL LOSE SIPHON at some point in time. http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

The biggest thing is to take your time and do your homework setting it up like you are doing. Figure out what it's going to cost and exactly what kind of setup you want.

take a look at these links
http://www.melevsreef.com/
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=33

3/18/2006 7:49:28 PM

I wanted to make a new reply instead of editing, I don't want this to get lost in the above post.

You really don't need a sump/refugium. If you don't have the money don't get into it.

Especially with a FOWLR, You would be better off getting nice lights and a hang-on-back skimmer. Like the Remora Pro, the best Hang-on style, IMO. You could if you want get a hang-on refugium made by CPR (go with the pro). They are pretty nice and offer the benefit of PH stabilization, nutrient transport, and a home for your pods to thrive. Then get a decent RO/DI water purifier on ebay. The more I think about it this is probably the best for a beginner and the quickest to setup. A simple FOWLR is the best way to start. Then use your 29gal as a quarantine tank.

If you wanted to go with a reef tank or very delicate fish I would suggest a sump, but FOWLR you can do without. A so-so shitty sump/refugium doesn't add much value compared to the headache you'll get worrying about overflows and plumbing.

Also, buy a electronic Ph meter. Better accuracy and this is what you'll need to monitor most frequently. The electronic ones are more accurate and very fast. Don't waste time with the drops and tubes and staring at the color in different lights.

[Edited on March 18, 2006 at 8:03 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on March 18, 2006 at 8:06 PM. Reason : .]

3/18/2006 8:01:40 PM

Im looking at pre-drilled tanks now...I really want to do this right on the first try so I might as well get whats best. Is it possible to drill a tank myself? Also should I look for one with a built-in overflow or one that is just predrilled? Also if I decide to start simple and not use a sump is there any way to block the overflow or hole so water doesnt pour out?

3/19/2006 11:06:26 PM

Quote :

"Is it possible to drill a tank myself?"

Yes if you have the correct drill bit. I wouldn't recommend it though, let someone with experience do the drilling. You can also normally find glass shops that will do this for $10-15 per hole. There is always the chance that the tank cracks though and then you are left with nothing.

Quote :

"Also should I look for one with a built-in overflow or one that is just predrilled?"

Whatever is cheaper. Ive never liked the built-ins because they take away tank space. It doesn't really matter though. Just make sure its quite.

Quote :

"Also if I decide to start simple and not use a sump is there any way to block the overflow or hole so water doesnt pour out?"

Yes, its just a plug thing, they are cheap.

Quote :

"I really want to do this right on the first try"

You would be the first person to ever accomplish this I believe. Everyone screws something up if you do everything yourself. Its a learning process.

3/19/2006 11:16:31 PM

there is not one right way to do things. there are lots of things that you can do terribly wrong, but every system is different and what works for one may not work for another. what doesn't work for one may work for another.

the greatest advice is to have a plan and take it slow. if you rush, things will go wrong and then you'll spend lots of money to try to fix it in a hurry.

3/20/2006 8:35:33 AM