Here how this will work, assuming people want to play along. You formulate an objection to polytheism (be it from an atheist/agnostic or monotheistic or some radically different perspective) and I’ll try to reply with atleast as good a defense for polytheism as a monotheist could for monotheism. Since in my philosophy classes I have to discuss theology almost daily, the extra practice will make for a fun exercise. If you have multiple objections then please number them.

The more concise the argument, the sooner I will be able to respond. It’ll be interesting to be target for both the liberal atheists & conservative fundamentalists.

4/6/2006 8:24:13 PM

if 2 all-powerful beings existed, who would win the fight?

4/6/2006 8:46:23 PM

YOUR BELEIFS ARE STUPID. YOU ARE STUPID. I HATE YOU. i think that about covers most religious debates. care to reply?

4/6/2006 8:48:55 PM

what proof do you have that the gods exist? everyone knows the illiad and the oddysey were just myths written thousands of years ago - they weren't meant to be taken literally

and besides, if the god exist, why do babies die?

4/6/2006 9:43:09 PM

is it true that when it thunders, it just means that god is bowling

4/6/2006 9:46:39 PM

apollo = apollo

4/6/2006 9:53:58 PM

This reminds me of when I applied every homo sympothizer argument to defending incest.
Except I did that for personal reasons.

4/6/2006 10:14:19 PM

"if 2 all-powerful beings existed, who would win the fight?"

The more powerful one... in polytheism no one is all powerful.

Just as monotheism has an array of supernatural creatures with Yaweh, different classes of angels/intelligences, half gods like christ, demons, the devil, and mortals... so too does polytheism have alot like Zeus, the other Olympians, half gods like achilles & hercules, demonic creatures like the furies, lord of the underworld hades, and mortals.

The stronger one would win in a fight... unless he wasnt against an army big enough to beat him up. Usually he'd gather his own army too, and the stronger army would win. The same principle can be seem w/ lucifer & his band vs god & the good angels I believe.

"YOUR BELEIFS ARE STUPID. YOU ARE STUPID. I HATE YOU. i think that about covers most religious debates. care to reply?"
These beliefs are sacred and deserve respect.

"what proof do you have that the gods exist? everyone knows the illiad and the oddysey were just myths written thousands of years ago - they weren't meant to be taken literally

and besides, if the god exist, why do babies die?"

So homer fudged a few details, it gets the general ideas across. And babies die b/c the gods aren't all that intrusive into our lives. Sure that means they don't stop bad things from happening sometime, but it also helps out for free will. But really, they are gods, why should they care about every little detail.

"is it true that when it thunders, it just means that god is bowling"

No Zeus is probably just striking down someone he doesn't like with the thunder bolts that the early Cyclopes fashioned for him.

"apollo = apollo"

True. The romans didn't have a different name for him, so they used the greek one. But many of the greek gods they had recognized with their own names. The gods revealed themselves somewhat to these different peoples. Polytheism is much more tolerant than monotheism, it can incorpate near eastern gods & african gods and pretty much any divinity that any significant numbers of people recognize. This is important because things like Love (aphrodite), Justice (Nike), and Wisdom (Athena) are all very real, powerful, and recognizable forces that it would be wrong to try to smash into 1 person. I mean monotheism still recognizes the divine so its not that bad, Zeus is often referred to as God or the God, but insofar as monotheism doesn't recognize the plurality of these forces it goes array. But they can still come to some reasonable conclusions just by studying divinity.

Eros as opposed to Chaos is a force/god for bringing things together. Are love, gravity, scientific forces that allow for life and the functioning on the universe worth worship/respect? Yeah, I think so, I mean life wouldn't exist without it.

Speaking of Chaos, he was the first god... its a little ambiguous where he is chaos like chasm or chaos like messiness, but from him came Gaia aka Ge. So every time you say Genesis you are basically admitting the existence of this earth goddess. The ancient greeks accepted ambiguousness, there are countless stories that don't line up perfectly, but they were okay with that... you can't really expect to know all the exact details of the gods (who are better than you and not always interested in making sure you know everything anyways)

4/6/2006 10:25:32 PM

"what proof do you have that the gods exist? everyone knows the illiad and the oddysey were just myths written thousands of years ago - they weren't meant to be taken literally"

"I’ll try to reply with atleast as good a defense for polytheism as a monotheist could for monotheism"

Dionysus gives us wine through miracle. Sure you can say that only reflects a peoples attitude about being glad they had the advancement or storying fruit juice (or athena w/ solid foods), but maybe the gods tools are through physical changes like this. Or the story of the flood and the 2 pious people preserving restoring the race. Or Pandora being the women who causes the fall of man. If thechristians here can accept these stories with their christian spin, then surely they can accept them for the ancient greek who lived thousands of years before christ. For you atheists, I'm not going to tell you to take it on faith, I'm just going to give a word of warning that if you don't honor the gods then bad things will happen. They don't care if you know the stories or take homer or hesiods word as law... just honor them and help society function and you can avoid problems. (also treat strangers and the elderly with respect, the gods don't like you taking advantage of the weak, and often appear as them in disguise)

4/6/2006 10:31:29 PM

I thought about being a dick and replying this

Quote :

""YOUR BELEIFS ARE STUPID. YOU ARE STUPID. I HATE YOU. i think that about covers most religious debates. care to reply?""

several times but I decided I didn't want to be tww-ipical.

If you had any personal beliefs invested in this thread, you'd be up to 3 pages of that shit by now, imo.

4/6/2006 10:57:12 PM

are any of teh gods black or azn? cuz if they are i know you are full of shit.

4/6/2006 11:20:04 PM

are you arguing for 2 gods or more than that or just a general more than 1?

4/6/2006 11:21:31 PM

Who came up with the idea of multiple gods? Was the idea translated and retranslated through history? And if so, how do we know biases and prejudices of the time didn't work their way into the "original works," thereby totally obscuring our understanding of the true nature of said gods?

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 11:32 PM. Reason : thx for showing me...needed to be clarified]

4/6/2006 11:22:43 PM

Quote :

"Who came up with the idea of multiple gods? Was the idea translated and retranslated through history? And if so, how do we know biases and prejudices of the time didn't work their way into the original works, thereby totally obscuring our understanding of their true nature?"

4/6/2006 11:28:47 PM

"are any of teh gods black or azn?"

Yeah.

"are you arguing for 2 gods or more than that or just a general more than 1?"

I'm arguing for their being several gods... hard to define how many though with so many children and some by mortals or lessor gods so there are gods at different strength levels. It gets really confusing when you throw in some immaculate conceptions caused by God (this is an acceptable way to refer to Zeus) with mortals.

"Who came up with the idea of multiple gods?"

I suppose Chaos probably noticed that their were multiple gods first, but no one just originally came up with the idea, instead its a reflection of the powerful forces out their like Love, Justice, and Wisdom.

"Was the idea translated and retranslated through history? And if so, how do we know biases and prejudices of the time didn't work their way into the original works, thereby totally obscuring our understanding of their true nature?"

Sure, it starts with greek but makes its way into latin with the romans and eventually into english. The texts aren't exact truthes, just general stories about the gods, they aren't concerned that everyone knows everything exactly right. Just know enough to understand their general nature & honor them. I'm sure biases did work their way in, like with the story of Athena & Arachnae. It obviously favour working class ppl to the hierarchy of nobles. But whether you learned about athena from this source or another source that favored nobles, you'd steal realize she's a craftswomen, tied to urban settings, very war-like, and the Goddess of Wisdom.

4/6/2006 11:33:54 PM

It starts with Greek?

Do some more research, yo.

4/6/2006 11:48:44 PM

Do any of the gods and godesses still mate with mortals? If so, which ones, and how would one go about bagging a goddess?

4/6/2006 11:50:50 PM

this thread makes Ganesh cry

4/6/2006 11:52:56 PM

I would like to put in my application as well to bwn a goddess.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 11:53 PM. Reason : d]

4/6/2006 11:53:39 PM

why is it goddess? don't be a shovenist.

4/6/2006 11:55:39 PM

shovenists suck! They're always trying to shove you in ovens and shit.

4/6/2006 11:57:02 PM

haha

pwnt

4/6/2006 11:57:42 PM

haha I should have checked it. I mean it's probably a word she types a thousand times a day.

4/7/2006 12:01:24 AM

The gods had to have come from somewhere; 1) where did they come from? 2) And, did it start with one and then others followed? 3) And what did they appear in? An empty universe or an empty world? 4) And wherever they appeared, where did that come from (i.e. if appeared in universe, where did universe come from, same question if earth)?

4/7/2006 12:03:35 AM

Quote :

"The gods had to have come from somewhere"

No, they don't.

Quote :

"The gods had to have come from somewhere; 1) where did they come from? 2) And, did it start with one and then others followed? 3) And what did they appear in? An empty universe or an empty world? 4) And wherever they appeared, where did that come from (i.e. if appeared in universe, where did universe come from, same question if earth)?"

I shoulda quoted the whole thing. Why are you applying all these human words and concepts to the potential supernatural?

I thought this thread was just for bullshitting.

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 12:23 AM. Reason : sss]

4/7/2006 12:22:06 AM

But seriously.

Started with the Greeks?

That's not even funny.

4/7/2006 12:27:25 AM

^LOL...he must have a preferred brand or something.

4/7/2006 12:36:46 AM

Indeed.

4/7/2006 12:39:16 AM

4/7/2006 1:01:27 AM

4/7/2006 1:12:40 AM

WTF you trying to do, Bridget? My questions, per the instructions of the thread, were directed at Supplanter. Thanks for jacking his threat with your bullshit, though. Your name should be mytwocents. Maybe you can switch with her.

Good god(s), you're annoying.

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 1:15 AM. Reason : speeeeeeeelllllling]

4/7/2006 1:15:23 AM

When speaking of a god how can we be sure that it is defined by our concepts of space and time? Is there a particular reason why you assume that there are multiple gods as opposed to say a single god which appears in multiple ways and instances?

The same argument can obviously be applied in reverse, but it's more getting to the point that once we accept the existance of a god for the sake of argument are we reall in a position to count the god(s)?

4/7/2006 1:20:05 AM

These are the only gods you need:


/thread

4/7/2006 1:20:40 AM

OH FUCK, NOOOOOOOOOOO, WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?! OH, DAMN, DAMN, DAMN...

JLPHIPPS, I FORGOT THAT I WAS SASSY TO YOU BEFORE, AND THAT YOU WERE A GIRL WHO I DIDN'T WANT TO BE SASSY TO BECAUSE I WANTED YOU TO STAY AND POST IN THE SOAP BOX.

I'M REALLY SORRY. I COULD HAVE DIRECTED MY POST AT ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. I WAS MOSTLY JUST THROWING IT OUT THERE. I SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT TO YOU AND ONLY YOU.

4/7/2006 1:27:55 AM

Polytheism is as valid a belief as monotheism.

4/7/2006 1:28:43 AM

Are you directing that comment at anyone in particular, moron?

4/7/2006 1:30:09 AM

"Would it kill you to gather just a few laurel leaves?"

4/7/2006 1:31:32 AM

Not really, no. I haven't even read this thread.

4/7/2006 1:39:36 AM

Many polytheistic religions are known to have simply assimilated new gods from different cultures as they went along, which suggests an even less reasonable construct -- if such a thing is possible -- of their belief system. Among the remainder, you frequently find faits that are only nominally polytheistic, while all of the individual gods are perceived as manifestations of one force. I have heard that description applied more or less to Hinduism.

4/7/2006 2:16:29 AM

I'd imagine most of you would like the idea of polytheism, it allows logically for free will, while monotheism does not.

4/7/2006 2:35:55 AM

You'll assume in one breath that we value logic and tell us in the next one that our faith has no room for it.

4/7/2006 2:36:59 AM

Whether you like it or not, you do value logic. If you didn't you'd argue like salisburyboy and believe the same stuff that he does.

4/7/2006 2:45:50 AM

OMFG HYPOTHESIS
OMFG ACCEPTANCE
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
*disappear for a year*
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION
OMFG ASSERTION

4/7/2006 2:48:36 AM

^^How can you, of all people, act as though my beliefs about religion are any more reasonable than salisburyboy's beliefs about...well, anything?

4/7/2006 2:49:42 AM

They arnt' you all belong on a funnyfarm.

4/7/2006 2:52:22 AM

Either you're as drunk as me or twice as stupid.

4/7/2006 2:59:17 AM

funnyfarm. love that word.

4/7/2006 3:01:44 AM

"Do any of the gods and godesses still mate with mortals?"

Yes alot of them do. There are a few virgins like Artemis, Athena, and Hestia... but most of the gods will get it on with mortals. Of course you have to be outstanding in piety, or beauty if you really want a shot. For those of you who are uglier than sin, if you just want children that have half divine parentage you can always hope and pray for immaculate conceptions.

"1) where did they come from? 2) And, did it start with one and then others followed? 3) And what did they appear in? An empty universe or an empty world? 4) And wherever they appeared, where did that come from (i.e. if appeared in universe, where did universe come from, same question if earth)?"

Chaos either always existed, or existed in eternity, or came into being out of a chasm (nothingness) or chaos (as in messyness & scattered matter or Prime Matter). Chaos was the first. From him sprung the world - Gaia. The earlier gods sort of split off from older gods... as the generations move on it moves more and more in sex to get kids. But gods can have immaculate conceptions on their own from time to time like Hera having her son Hephasteus, God of the Forge.

"When speaking of a god how can we be sure that it is defined by our concepts of space and time? Is there a particular reason why you assume that there are multiple gods as opposed to say a single god which appears in multiple ways and instances?

The same argument can obviously be applied in reverse, but it's more getting to the point that once we accept the existance of a god for the sake of argument are we reall in a position to count the god(s)?"

Well I wouldn't put it passed an olympian to pull the wool over our eyes every now and thing, but there seems to be enough stories of their appearances and interactions with mortals, and archaelogical discovery of mythical cities like agamemnons home, troy, and the palace of knossos that the stories of the gods are probably somewhat true. And maybe some gods can be collapsed down into less quantity gods (such as incorporating near eastern & egyption gods as just different realizations of the greek gods) but you can't collapse them all the way. There are always a few gods who aren't parrelled enough to think they have a known correspondent... and thats why Apollo carries over with the same name to the Romans. Love & Justice are different forces. As with hiding your child from the law even though they've done something wrong... its easy to see that this forces don't line up perfectly in a way that is collapsable. Maybe you could convience Hyperion & Helios are really different names for the same guy... but to convience me that all the gods with all their different natures are just one? Thats pushing unity a little hard.

You believe in god b/c of the stories, b/c of the historical evidence, b/c of faith, and b/c some powerful forces like Love & Justice can be seen to play a big role in our lives that we can't reduce to just 1. Sure we may never know exactly how many gods, demi-gods, and nymphs are out there, but as long as we honor the ones towards the top end like the olympians we should be alright. I mean you don't have to pray to every single angel/intelligence.

Gotta run though, i'll check the rest of the question later.

4/7/2006 8:40:04 AM

Quote :

"How can you, of all people, act as though my beliefs about religion are any more reasonable than salisburyboy's beliefs about...well, anything?"

Your beliefs themselves might be unreasonable, but from arguements with you, I know that you value logic as you use a logical debate style. From that I can assume you most likely have your own logical way of explaining god's existence in this world, something besides "I know he's here because I know he's here". Your logic is flawed or makes unjustified leaps or ignores burden of proof, but I'll still bet it fairly reasonable logic.

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 10:43 AM. Reason : ]

4/7/2006 10:42:29 AM

"Many polytheistic religions are known to have simply assimilated new gods from different cultures as they went along, which suggests an even less reasonable construct -- if such a thing is possible -- of their belief system. "

This makes polytheism more reasonable in that it combines everyones intuitions on divinity that are commonly accepted. Looking at the sheer numbers alone does not prove that you are right. Just as christians who say "we have the most followers, they can't all be wrong" doesn't prove anything, the same is true of the western world being dominated many times by polytheism. But that it combines everyones intuitions, everyones experiences with god, it seems like that if their is a right answer that polytheism is more likely to cover it.

I've heard the argument that atheists ought not believe their isn't a god, b/c humans only know a small fraction of the boundless knowledge that is out there. But if you carry that further you realize that if in that small fraction of knowledge we have we can find even 1 god... then imagine how many their could be if you knew even more. The polytheist being more tolerant of other religions allowed them to get insights from people who had studied lots of different sections of possible human knowledge.

4/7/2006 11:18:43 AM