PERISH THE THOUGHT

shes talking about her faith on Larry King right now.

[Edited on April 23, 2006 at 9:55 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2006 9:54:50 PM

traitor != christian

4/23/2006 10:01:03 PM

so THATS why ted turner dumped her ass

4/23/2006 10:10:13 PM

I'm pretty sure this is old news

like years old


also, that bit about her passing pieces of paper to sell out POWs is an urban myth, most people say.

4/23/2006 10:23:14 PM

Fuck Jane Fonda, I have absolutely zero sympathy for that bitch!

4/23/2006 10:32:45 PM

^
sounds like the devil is bitter

4/23/2006 10:38:02 PM

more importantly:

why do people still get upset over that? i mean, aside from people who feel like punching a hippy every 5 min.

4/23/2006 11:21:02 PM

well, if I thought that story was true, I'd be pissed, whether or not it happened 40 years ago.

4/23/2006 11:40:01 PM

while the most salationous stories are not true

to some level she did give aid and comfort to the enemy

she fucking posed with a North Vietnam AA gun

i'm all about free thought and dissent, but seriously, you're a god damn american, fucking act like it

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

4/23/2006 11:43:22 PM

yeah, I concur, but while that's not something to forget, it's not really something to solely judge her by 40 years later (when she has, to varying degrees depending on your opinion, changed her tune and been sorry for what she did).

[Edited on April 23, 2006 at 11:49 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/23/2006 11:46:50 PM

wasn't this interview on several months ago?

4/23/2006 11:49:14 PM

Quote :

"i mean, aside from people who feel like punching a hippy every 5 min."

who doesnt fall into this category is my question.

4/23/2006 11:58:45 PM

I've thought our war against Iraq was wrong from Day One. And I think Saddam was, all things considered, a pretty goodeffective ruler of Iraq. If I were a lawyer practicing international law, I'd probably help his defense team pro bono.

So does that make me a bad american? does that make me a bad christian?

(well.. i mean, if i were a christian.)




[Edited on April 24, 2006 at 12:38 AM. Reason : ]

4/24/2006 12:37:30 AM

I think that makes you misguided on at least one count:

Saddam Hussein is a scourge.

4/24/2006 12:47:00 AM

^ yeah, Saddam's a scourge. i fully agree with that. A right evil ruthless bastard he was. but he was also a pretty goddamned effective ruler.

for 25 years he kept all the factions in line, quelched the islamacists, gave women freedom to be educated, work in professions, and even government.

and most importantly, he was a freaking strong buffer against that hotbed of fundamentalist islamic lunacy we call Iran.

so now what? we cant get anyone in Iraq to play nice with each other, the factions are irreconcilibly divided against each other to the point where its an effective civil war. 2/3 of the country is officially unstable and out of control by any governing authority, women are being suppressed to where they cant go outside without a male relative escorting them (hello, Sharia Law, hello Taliban)

and worst of all, Iran now has no check against them. They have actually become stronger, while our position in the region has weakened.

So what was it that Iraq did taht was so bad that we needed to spend hundreds of billions of dollars, squander our international credibility, and send 2300+ (and counting) U.S. sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, to go get killed in the desert?

Oh, Saddam was a bad man. He was an evil dictator. He killed some of his people.

Well, Jesus fucking christ. How many bad dictators are out there runnign countries and killing their dissidents? N Korea and China come to mind. How about Somalia, East Timor, Rwanda? If we're gonna go clean out all the "scourges" who do bad things in their countries, we better get fucking busy rollign out the draft. and cancelling all retirements and planned separations.

4/24/2006 1:10:30 AM

I'm not looking to argue your general sentiment...just that Saddam Hussein was on the order of the worst that humankind has had to offer throughout history. He's in the Hall Of Shame. I don't know why you would want to defend him, or what exactly you would say in his defense.


and if we want to start taking down shitheads, that's ok with me. That's exactly what I signed up to do.

4/24/2006 1:21:04 AM

I thought joe's rant was pretty much on point. Saddam was menace but atleast we had him contained. With all our efforts look what we accomplished over there, a percieved war on Islam. Zealous lunatics have grown in their cause and we have yet to effectively fight terrorism in the "War on Terrorism" as our president titled it.

4/24/2006 1:27:58 AM

I'm not looking to argue your general sentiment...just that Saddam Hussein was on the order of the worst that humankind has had to offer throughout history. He's in the Hall Of Shame. I don't know why you would want to defend him, or what exactly you would say in his defense.

4/24/2006 1:28:55 AM

yea he was an evil shitbag, but Kim Jong Il is an evil shitbag who kidnaps people from other nations *and* has confirmed nuclear weapons.

As far as systematic human rights abuses, Saddam couldnt touch the chinese.

and the humanitarian crises in Rwanda and Somalia and East Timor make the occasional instances of what Saddam did look like kids play.

in his defense i would probably focus on the illegality of the US invasion to attack a sovereign nation without provocation. He was the legitimate ruler of Iraq. Whether we like how he got there is not relevant. Not to mention he consolidated his power with US support in the '70s and '80s.

but hey, if thats what Americas new role is, to police the world and impose democracy on people who dont ask for it, dont want it, and cant handle it.... then fucking rock on. lets just be consistent about it.

In that case, we better be prepared to bring back the draft. and we better be prepared for our newly liberated and newly democratic pals to go and elect regimes that are even more hostile to US interests.

Palestine/Hamas, anyone? A right brilliant bit of US interventionist policy that one, eh?

4/24/2006 1:32:40 AM

Quote :

"As far as systematic human rights abuses, Saddam couldnt touch the chinese. and the humanitarian crises in Rwanda and Somalia and East Timor make the occasional instances of what Saddam did look like kids play."

4/24/2006 1:50:43 AM

Quote :

"and the humanitarian crises in Rwanda and Somalia and East Timor make the occasional instances of what Saddam did look like kids play."

That's an issue I definitely think we should bring to the forefront. When I signed up for the USMC, I figured we'd bringing the pain to people who deserve it in those countries (or at least one of the two former, as well as Sudan's Darfur Province.)

Also, I think we should be playing up all the stuff the Chinese do...I think that they want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world for more than what they bring to the table by virtue of sheer numbers.

I don't care much about spreading democracy. That's all well and good if it happens, but I'm fine with benevolent dictorships or whatever else, as long as innocent people aren't getting slaughtered.

Quote :

"in his defense i would probably focus on the illegality of the US invasion to attack a sovereign nation without provocation. He was the legitimate ruler of Iraq."

That's pretty much irrelevent to what he's on trial for, and I think that you'd have a tough case to make that our invasion was illegal.

4/24/2006 8:56:41 AM

um, whether fonda did or didn't "give aid and comfort to" the "enemy," are we forgetting that we shouldn't have been there in the first place? those people were defending their country. yeah, alot of them were bad people in the first place, but let's not lose sight of the fact that WE were the instigators in that conflict, and we were the invaders.

4/24/2006 9:17:21 AM

Quote :

"That's an issue I definitely think we should bring to the forefront. When I signed up for the USMC, I figured we'd bringing the pain to people who deserve it in those countries (or at least one of the two former, as well as Sudan's Darfur Province.)"

i respect you and all, but you need to learn lesson 1 from World Politics 101

africa doesn't count

4/24/2006 10:50:09 AM

Quote :

"what exactly you would say in his defense"

i'm pretty sure he summed it right the fuck up

don't start playing salisburyboy on us now and anytime someone makes a good point you just start copying and pasting your own wisdom

OH SHIT
ARE YOU SALISBURYBOY?

that'd be the biggest >.< of them all

4/24/2006 10:53:55 AM

saddam's a dick

the trial IS a farce

let's just hope they execute him before insurgents snatch his ass and make him king again

[Edited on April 24, 2006 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

4/24/2006 10:56:02 AM

hmm back to jane fonda. http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

4/24/2006 11:26:08 AM

Quote :

"i respect you and all, but you need to learn lesson 1 from World Politics 101 africa doesn't count"

haha, yeah, i'm aware.

i'm just saying that I was once hopeful that this would be a case of The Way Things Should Be prevailing over The Way Things Are.

Quote :

"i'm pretty sure he summed it right the fuck up don't start playing salisburyboy on us now and anytime someone makes a good point you just start copying and pasting your own wisdom OH SHIT ARE YOU SALISBURYBOY? that'd be the biggest >.< of them all"

haha

seriously, though...i specifically said that I wasn't trying to contest his take on foreign policy

just that Saddam isn't guilty as charged and worthy of paying the price.

like I said--Saddam Hussein's trial isn't about American foreign policy.

4/24/2006 12:05:41 PM

Quote :

"i'm just saying that I was once hopeful that this would be a case of The Way Things Should Be prevailing over The Way Things Are."

yeah, i would hope that too

it's just that after the rwanda stuff happens, world leaders everywhere said how bad the world response was and nothing like this would ever happen again (being very particular about the lack of genocide declarations and such)

now, in darfur, shit's going down, world leaders have even said the word genocide, and still the most minimal efforts are taking place

real politik

4/24/2006 12:41:53 PM

SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR THE TRAIL OF TEARS

4/24/2006 1:24:17 PM

wow

how irrelevant

4/24/2006 4:50:00 PM

Irrelevent, yes.

However, "karma is a bitch" as they say.

4/24/2006 5:14:32 PM

dear god my mind is going to explode!

4/24/2006 10:27:27 PM

Numerous first hand accounts do make her look like a traitor during the war.

I.e. Fonda informing the NVA what "keep your pearly whites" meant in a letter that a POW's mom had sent him while he was being imprisoned. The NVA then knocked his teeth out.



What's worse about it is how public she was. She IS a traitor. If you think otherwise you're an idiot.

4/24/2006 10:37:15 PM

Quote :

"Fonda informing the NVA [about a POW] ... then [they] knocked his teeth out. "

yeah man. and what about all the firsthand accounts of how Fonda helped the NVA kill puppies and drown kittens. fucking bitch.

Quote :

"She IS a traitor. If you think otherwise you're an idiot"

damn straight, yo. how dare her and her hippy friends like Kerry criticise our government. thats just like a fucking commie pinko traitor terrorist whore.

string 'em up i say. string em up.

4/25/2006 12:57:21 AM

4/25/2006 1:13:43 AM

goddamn, fermata, youre a retard.

4/25/2006 3:20:57 AM

Quote :

"She also spoke with eight American POWs at a carefully arranged "press conference," POWs who had been tortured by their North Vietnamese captors to force them to meet with Fonda, deny they had been tortured, and decry the American war effort. Fonda apparently didn't notice (or care) that the POWs were delivering their lines under duress or find it unusual the she was not allowed to visit the prisoner-of-war camp (commonly known as the "Hanoi Hilton") itself. She merely went home and told the world that "[the POWs] assured me they were in good health. When I asked them if they were brainwashed, they all laughed. Without exception, they expressed shame at what they had done." She did, however, charge that North Vietnamese POWs were systematically tortured in American prison-of-war camps. To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law." "

Quote :

"Ever since her infamous visit to Hanoi, Jane Fonda has maintained the fiction that she was just "trying to stop the war." But she didn't go to North Vietnam to try to bring about peace, or to reconcile the two warring sides, or to stop American boys from being killed — she went there as an active show of support for the North Vietnamese cause. She lauded the North Vietnamese military, she denounced American soldiers as "war criminals" and urged them to stop fighting, she lobbied to cut off all American economic aid to the South Vietnamese government (even after the Paris Peace Accords had ended U.S. military involvement in Vietnam), she publicly thanked the Soviets for providing assistance to the North Vietnamese, and she branded tortured American POWs as liars possessed of overactive imaginations. "

Yeah, that pisses me off and would piss me off even more if I were a soldier.

I agree with this

Quote :

"Fonda's efforts could fall under the definition of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." It is also undeniable that some American soldiers came to harm as a direct result of Fonda's actions, an outcome she should reasonably have anticipated. "

Freedom of speech is not absolute. Supporting the enemy through propoganda can fall under the definitions of treason. At the very least, she should have been thrown in jail like those who burned their draft cards. But that would have been political suicide for Nixon.

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 7:36 PM. Reason : 2]

4/25/2006 7:30:24 PM

I recall reading or hearing that our POWs snuck some letters to Jane Fonda during her visit to Hanoi so she could send word to their families, letting them know that they were alive. Instead, Fonda turned the letters over to the head of the camp, along with the names of the soldiers who passed her the letters. As a result, the soldiers Fonda betrayed were tortured even moreso than before.

Why that woman is allowed to walk free in this country is beyond me.

4/25/2006 8:20:01 PM

^that's a bastardized version of the most famous story about her, which happens to be an urban myth.


I'm not part of the Jane Fonda fan club by any means, but I don't view her as anything substantially different from, say, Cindy Sheehan (except hotter). I've also read that's she has, to a large degree, changed her tune.

4/25/2006 8:37:36 PM

Here's a pic of her posing with an NVA anti-aircraft gun.

I wasn't too sure about that particular story about Jane Fonda and I'm glad that she's found the Lord, but I do know that just about every Vietnam vet I have met hates her with every fiber of their being.

4/25/2006 8:48:32 PM

One picture can destroy your reputation. Remember that, kids.

And the Vietnam vets who despise her need to think a little further.

It was the anti-war movement that brought those men home.

If people, not unlike Jane Fonda, hadn't protested so vocally, politicians would have left them all there to die.

4/25/2006 8:53:28 PM

Vietnam vets hate her because (1) a lot of people don't realize that the most famous--and condemning--story about her is false, and (2) there are enough things about her that are true that I'd say Vietnam vets have every right to dislike her.

BridgetSPK, yes, she protested the war, which may have ultimately benefited some of our fighting men, but she did so with total contempt and for them, beyond indifference and to the point of actively taking a stand against them. She--and her kind--were NOT the same as the "Bring the troops home" variety of protesters.

4/25/2006 9:03:09 PM