I have a serious serious issue with Congress lately, and it's about flag burning. They're voting later this week on a possible amendment to the Constitution, which would state:
"The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."

Personally I believe that burning a flag is one of the strongest forms of freedom of speech. While I'm not a big fan of burning the US flag, I still think that anyone should have the right to do it. Kinda the whole 'I don't agree with what he's saying but I'll defend to the death is right to say it."


"I think of the flag as a symbol of what the veterans fought for, what they sustained wounds for, what they sustained loss of limbs for, and what they sustained loss of life for," said Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa.
---BULLSHIT! Veterans fight to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and part of that is having the right to free speech. They are fighting for us to have the right to burn flags if we want--even though those flags might be the same that they fight under.

Damnit when are these fucktards in Congress going to be voted out so we can get some real leaders in?

6/27/2006 12:04:01 AM

Gee, another vote in Congress that will surely fail in order to keep votes about minimum wage or, God forbid, discussion about Iraq or (better yet) Iran from taking place.

Fucking misdirection kids. Houdini and Gob would be proud.

6/27/2006 12:05:36 AM

this comes up every six months as well as this thread. do a search. It turns out that a lot of congressmen are rednecks, too.

[Edited on June 27, 2006 at 12:07 AM. Reason : IBTL]

6/27/2006 12:07:03 AM

BUT WHERE DID THE LIGHTER FLUID COME FROM?

6/27/2006 12:10:23 AM

I get that it will never actually be passed. All I'm saying is that I don't really care one way or the other if the US flag is burned or not.

Everybody keeps talking about how "symbolic" everything is. Burning the flag is "symbolic" of a disagreement or even out-right attack on the American way of life. But I say to you, how is burning a piece of cloth a threat to anyone? If the burning fabric happens to land near some fuel or explosives or if it happens to land on somebody and set them on fire, that's one thing. But I fail to see how burning something as arbitrary as a blanket is "wrong" in any other sense.

6/27/2006 12:17:40 AM

...I would probably laugh if someone were burning the American flag and caught themselves on fire--karma will get ya!
Like I said--I disagree with it, but if you want to do it, go for it.

[Edited on June 27, 2006 at 12:19 AM. Reason : ]

6/27/2006 12:19:08 AM

A constitutional amendment to ban flag burning doesn't go far enough. We need the Religious Right to lobby God so that He smites anyone who takes flame to flag. Anything less and the islamofascist Hippies have won.

6/27/2006 12:53:21 AM

Quote :

"But I say to you, how is burning a piece of cloth a threat to anyone?"

Ironically, this piece of cloth is not made in the USA.

6/27/2006 1:14:55 AM

I consider a myself a proud member of the religious right and I don't care one iota if people burn the flag. Good grief, while we are on the subject what nonsense is it to pledge allegiance to a cloth anyway. I pledge my allegiance to God not man, much less some stupid cloth. I'd rather see the conservative leadership focus on substantive issues like freedom of religion or abortion or property rights.

I doubt Arlen Specter would pontificate on any of those, not from what I recall of him in recent past.

6/27/2006 1:18:46 AM

I dont think people have the right to burn an American flag in public, in America. I think a nation's flag is a unique exception to private property, and should have special protection under law.

That said, I would agree with those who say this is a relatively trivial matter.

6/27/2006 2:10:54 AM

Flag burning gays will secularize your children if you don't vote for us in November.

6/27/2006 2:35:35 AM

what about if i make a badass shirt out of the flag?

6/27/2006 2:36:58 AM

Free speech has limits. Why shouldn't flag burning be considered another form of "fighting words", which are not free speech? I can see how someone who has loved ones in Iraq would look at flag burning as a fighting words kind of situation. It's certainly not just a "piece of cloth" - that's why the people want to burn it. You don't see them burning a bed sheet, for example. They aren't just burning a "piece of cloth", they're burning a symbol of America.

I am kind of on the fence about this one. I mean, I am a HUGE advocate of "I don't agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." However, there are many instances in which the law places limits on free speech. Fighting words, being one. And if you hate this country so much that you want to burn its symbols, then I think you should leave.

I think this time it might actually be passed. It's already passed the House, and 66 Senators are on record as supporting it, meaning they only need to pick up *one* more.

6/27/2006 2:42:44 AM

Thanks for giving us the facist perspective.

6/27/2006 2:49:04 AM

Even bigger idiots pay that idiot for legal advice. scary

6/27/2006 3:18:13 AM

No logical, reasoned arguments against what I have to say, then? In other words, you have no logic or reasoning to support your own position? This begs the question, why do you persist in a position that you admit there is no reasoning for?

6/27/2006 4:22:56 AM

If burning the flag should be banned because it is "fighting words" than so should many other forms of protest.

6/27/2006 6:28:02 AM

Quote :

"BUT WHERE DID THE LIGHTER FLUID COME FROM?"

6/27/2006 8:09:05 AM

Just so I'm clear here...Congress can't ammend the constitution, right? So this is like bringing up an amendment to force the states to vote?

Oh, and I'm against this amendment.

6/27/2006 8:13:42 AM

no, but either 2/3 of both houses of congress must initiate an amendment or 2/3 of the state legislatures must call for a national convention.

6/27/2006 8:19:46 AM

Quote :

"Why shouldn't flag burning be considered another form of "fighting words", which are not free speech?"

I agree with this statement.

Quote :

"If burning the flag should be banned because it is "fighting words" than so should many other forms of protest."

Burning the flag is a nice and visible act of protest. You (the first quote) are a little bit misplaced in that a lot of flag burning tends to happen in times of aggressive protesting and with the wrong delusional people doing it could lead to "fighting words" in a public place. But the mere act of flag burning itself just doesn't constitute fighting words to me. It's just the most extreme form of picketing.

Personally, I laugh at flag burners because all they are saying is disapproval of the gubment without actually trying to do anything about it. Get the fuck out, I don't need you if all you are going to do is bitch about it. Do something productive.

This is a ploy (along with the anti-gay stuff) by the right to get back into good stading with their core constituency.

6/27/2006 8:29:19 AM

From The West Wing's "20 Hours in LA:"

Quote :

"President Bartlet: (at a town hall meeting in Orange County) There is a population in this country that seems to focus so much time and energy into this conversation, so much so that I am forced to ask this question -- is there an epidemic of flag burning going on that I'm not aware of? (outside the meeting) I mean it, man, is there an emergency-level outbreak of flag desecration no one's kept me posted on? "

6/27/2006 8:34:08 AM

OLD MAN WATERFALL:
Oh, land-o-Goshen! Your Honours, I'm not some slick, big-city lawyer like my opponent here. But I am a veteran who has fought for his planet. You see this hand of mine?

SCALIA:
Yes, I do.

OLD MAN WATERFALL:
No, you don't 'Cause I lost my real hand plantin' the flag when we took back Halley's Comet! Yet it was worth it. So much do I love that flag. I love it even more than I love my seven wives. That's right, I'm a polygamist. Yet I would gladly eat a flag myself, had I not used my intestine as a rope to hoist a flag made of my own skin, if it would protect the freedoms of the proud people who salute that flag. Freedom such as polygamy. I rest my case. Whoa, jeez!

6/27/2006 8:59:20 AM

Quote :

"No logical, reasoned arguments against what I have to say, then? In other words, you have no logic or reasoning to support your own position?"

Quote :

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance An adage regarding this fallacy from the philosophy of science is that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence": not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case--it is in fact simply lack of evidence, and nothing more. Argument from ignorance is also known by its Latin title of argumentum ad ignorantiam. "

---------

Quote :

"skokiaan: you're an idiot"

Quote :

"Wolfpack2K:Why do you persist in a position that you admit there is no reasoning for?"

Quote :

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29 Non sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow." In formal logic, an argument is a non sequitur if the conclusion does not follow from the premise."

Remind my what your job is again?

[Edited on June 27, 2006 at 9:26 AM. Reason : 46546]

6/27/2006 9:25:07 AM

burn

6/27/2006 9:30:55 AM

Quote :

"I pledge my allegiance to God not man"

Ugh this attitude never ceases to appall me.

6/27/2006 9:40:47 AM

^ why thank you, given that you rountinely profess a disdain for my core beliefs I'd be worried if you said otherwise

6/27/2006 9:49:27 AM

dude rage against the machine woo hoo fuck the man! we're rebels! we can burn flags! woo power to the people!

6/27/2006 10:15:41 AM

I always chuckle at how Republicans only focus on flag burning when it comes to talking points, but they write the amendment to apply to "desecration".

I'll support banning flag burning when they support locking up all those people who continue flying worn out and shredded flags over their businesses... or put flag bumper stickers on their cars... or create any kind of flag ties, flag clothing, flag lapel pins...

6/27/2006 10:16:11 AM

^ +

Quote :

"I dont think people have the right to burn an American flag in public, in America. I think a nation's flag is a unique exception to private property, and should have special protection under law."

Let's just pass a law requiring you to get a license to have an American flag. Each license costs $15.00. Sadly I could almost imagine them implementing something like that. All about the $revenue$

6/27/2006 10:20:09 AM

on an unrelated side note, does the "the flag is more than a piece of cloth" argument mean I'm going to Hell b/c I accidentally tore a couple pages in my 10+ year old Bible? I mean I just physically desecrated the Word of God...  

6/27/2006 10:26:01 AM

i mean technically its illegal for you to destroy your drivers license because its property of the state...course theres no amendement for that

i personally dont care if people burn flags, it doesnt really affect me, although burning anything seems pretty childish..."look i can burn the us flag to speak against the govt!"...kinda like kkk being like "i can burn this cross to speak against the niggers!"

but to some people it is more than just a piece of cloth...soldiers who put their lives on the line for this country can look at a flag as symbolic of their friends and families and country that they're fighting for, etc

6/27/2006 10:29:13 AM

I hate it for those folks that they are a little too close minded to actually take great comfort in knowing they faught for the ability to maintain the right to burn the thing.

It's a perception thing. I just can't get motivated to be upset by a flag burner, I actually giggle at their ignorance sometimes, but it just doesn't effect my life one iota.

6/27/2006 10:42:25 AM

In the Boy Scouts, we burn flags in a retirement ceremony, and apparently this means we wouldnt be able to do that any longer which is messed up

but if you really think hard about the flag ceremony and how much time we take and the process a flag goes through, its borderline idol worship

6/27/2006 10:44:15 AM

borderline?

"i pledge allegiance to the flag"

i'm not religious, but if i were, i'd be a little wary of the pledge of allegiance.

6/27/2006 10:53:13 AM

yes, lets talk about flag burning now

lets not talk about Kyle who is coming back with both his legs amputated, or the Johnson's who have lost half their children in the war

i mean, lets not try to find a reasonable exit to the clusterfuck we're in

lets talk about this shit now

6/27/2006 11:01:15 AM

better burn all your flags while you still can!!!

6/27/2006 11:19:30 AM

People forget that the amendment still has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states, so just because it passes Congress doesn't make it Constitutional. I agree that it is a form of speech, so what would happen if a Constitutional amendment was passed that contradicts another? Would the Supreme Court have the authority to strike it down?

Quote :

"Free speech has limits. Why shouldn't flag burning be considered another form of "fighting words", which are not free speech? I can see how someone who has loved ones in Iraq would look at flag burning as a fighting words kind of situation. It's certainly not just a "piece of cloth" - that's why the people want to burn it. You don't see them burning a bed sheet, for example. They aren't just burning a "piece of cloth", they're burning a symbol of America."

Its just a fucking flag. Symbols themselves are meaningless, but it is what they represent that matters. The American flag represents liberty and freedom, so how the hell can you have liberty and freedom if you are going to forbid someone the right to burn the flag regardless of what it represents?

6/27/2006 11:36:30 AM

liberty and freedom dont mean you have free range to do whatever the hell you want

i mean do people burn flags just because they have the freedom to do so?

seems pretty silly to me..." i acknowledge that this flag is a symbol of our country and the men and women who have fought for it...and given me the freedom to burn this flag "

6/27/2006 11:43:46 AM

^^it also has to pass 2/3 of the senate, which is usually a big stumbling block, thankfully they don't have to worry about a reactionary electorate quite as often as house members do.

6/27/2006 11:49:06 AM

Quote :

"liberty and freedom dont mean you have free range to do whatever the hell you want i mean do people burn flags just because they have the freedom to do so? seems pretty silly to me..." i acknowledge that this flag is a symbol of our country and the men and women who have fought for it...and given me the freedom to burn this flag ""

Again, noone fights for a flag. A flag is a piece of cloth. People fight for what it represents, which is liberty and freedom. By prohibiting people from burning the flag, you are disgracing what is truly represents. And yes, I know freedom/liberty doesn't give you free range to do whatever you want, but I fail to see how anyones rights are being violated by someone burning the American flag. I do see Republicans distracting people from the real issues at hand with this flag burning nonsense. You should seek to give people the right to do as much as possible (without violating anyone elses rights) not take rights/freedoms away.

6/27/2006 11:50:15 AM

Quote :

"Protostar: I agree that it is a form of speech, so what would happen if a Constitutional amendment was passed that contradicts another? Would the Supreme Court have the authority to strike it down?"

[no], the Supreme Court cannot strike down Constitutional amendments. The previous language would just be superceded for those specific cases where the new amendment applies (like the "Three-fifths Compromise" in Article I effectively being nullified by the 14th Amendment). 

6/27/2006 11:51:32 AM

Quote :

"The previous language would just be superceded for those specific cases where the new amendment applies (like the "Three-fifths Compromise" in Article I effectively being nullified by the 14th Amendment)."

But the Amendment being superceded here would be the 1st Amendment of the Bill Of Rights. I don't think people realize the magnitude of what they are supporting here (for those in support of the flag burning amendment). Are we going to amend the Constitution everytime something offends a group of people? What if women got together and decided that pornography "offended them" and proposed a Constitutional amendment? there goes everyones porno collections. I don't think people realize the slippery slope they are sliding down when supporting said amendment.

6/27/2006 11:59:55 AM

Quote :

"all those people who continue flying worn out and shredded flags over their businesses... or put flag bumper stickers on their cars... or create any kind of flag ties, flag clothing, flag lapel pins..."

My personal favorite is people who put up flags in their room with pins/nails at all four coners, allowing it to hang onto their desk, and leave it unlit at night.

[Edited on June 27, 2006 at 12:03 PM. Reason : at not and]

6/27/2006 12:03:02 PM

Quote :

"By prohibiting people from burning the flag, you are disgracing what is truly represents."

but dont you also think when people burn flags, they are disgracing the struggles of US soldiers who got our country to where it is to give them all their other freedoms and rights?

6/27/2006 12:08:02 PM

someone should just light the pope on fire instead

guffaw!

6/27/2006 12:14:54 PM

Quote :

"but dont you also think when people burn flags, they are disgracing the struggles of US soldiers who got our country to where it is to give them all their other freedoms and rights?"

No, because they are excersing the freedoms that the soldiers fought for. I must again repeat, noones rights are being violated. It might offend some people, but I'm sure everyone does something that offends someoone else at some point in their lives. This flag burning amendment is just political grandstanding to try and distract from the real issues at hand.

6/27/2006 12:19:20 PM

the soldiers did not fight for the country's freedom so that the free people could burn a symbol of their hard work, dedication, and numerous lost lives

6/27/2006 12:20:35 PM

im sorry you cant handle the fact that important concepts which give you the rights you enjoy are way more important than any symbol

6/27/2006 12:22:10 PM

sorry you dont see how hypocritical burning a flag is

6/27/2006 12:23:39 PM