plz to write some opinions

i saw the documentary on the discovery channel tonight, guy had some different ways of life and thought he was the second coming of christ, but i really saw no reason to murder them like it happened.

a few illegal guns but...what was gonna happen with that, really?

plz to write

9/18/2006 5:07:58 AM

He needed to be taken down, but not burned out.

He set up a little fortress there with all the weapons and then decided he didn't need to pay taxes or abide by the U.S. Government's laws.

They needed to arrest him, but the way it went down sucked hard.

9/18/2006 7:02:50 AM

could have taken care of business in an entirely different manner

but Janet Reno wanted to prove something


same thing with Ruby Ridge

9/18/2006 8:27:13 AM

aw..that was last nite? i wanted to watch that.

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 8:45 AM. Reason : d]

9/18/2006 8:45:23 AM

me too

9/18/2006 8:48:11 AM

ha didnt people blaim Clinton for this

kinda funny when you think about it

9/18/2006 9:40:51 AM

Waco was a botched FBI job. The impression I got off of some History Channel documentaries was that the chief negotiator had nearly managed to talk them all down, but a bureaucrat somewhere got a bit impatient due to public pressure and prematurely ordered the attack.

9/18/2006 10:39:26 AM

^ Interesting, and more believable than any explanation I've heard.

Quote :

"bgmims: He needed to be taken down, but not burned out. He set up a little fortress there with all the weapons and then decided he didn't need to pay taxes or abide by the U.S. Government's laws. They needed to arrest him, but the way it went down sucked hard."

Why?

It's not a tough question to answer, but why was it "needed?"

9/18/2006 2:05:36 PM

Quote :

"He set up a little fortress there with all the weapons and then decided he didn't need to pay taxes or abide by the U.S. Government's laws."

so he was a Libertarian?

9/18/2006 2:10:42 PM

didn't this guy also like little girls a bit too much? (maybe i'm making this up, it's been a long time since i've read about this)

9/18/2006 2:15:00 PM

it was a violent cult that yes sarijoul, had a number of arranged marriages with minors, etc

the incident ended more violently than an optimal solution, but he was clearly a nutjob who needed to be removed

9/18/2006 2:16:56 PM

he fired at agents and then set the place on fire, im not sad that he died

9/18/2006 2:33:52 PM

^^ Why was it "needed?"

^ Who says he did anything of the sort?

9/18/2006 2:35:40 PM

innocent people on both sides died for no reason that day

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 2:36 PM. Reason : he didn't light the fire]

9/18/2006 2:35:49 PM

i mean there is footage of him fireing on agents
and the evidence supports that he burned those innocent people

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html

Quote :

"Who started the fire that erupted a little more than six hours after the FBI began inserting the tear gas on April 19? Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)"

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 2:41 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 2:37:46 PM

Yikes. Sounds like he didn't take the risk of death very seriously.

9/18/2006 2:41:04 PM

well as long as the government said he did it

I mean, they're pretty much all dead right

its so awesome that our government uses tanks and machine guns against it's own folks

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 3:21:43 PM

Nothing new. We've been doing it since the Civil War. What's changed is a matter of magnitude and distribution of accurate information.

9/18/2006 3:26:08 PM

Quote :

"It's not a tough question to answer, but why was it "needed?""

The same reasons we need to enforce all our other laws.

^^The tanks and machine guns were an effort to match the force it faced. Saying that they should have dealt with it through normal means is effectively saying that once you have enough guns and whackjobs to use them then you get to ignore the law

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2006 3:27:54 PM

if the dude needed to be arrested then they should have done it on one of his multiple trips into town

but instead they chose to make a big scene

9/18/2006 3:28:21 PM

^^ & ^ He chose not to leave for town on the government's terms. He inarguably would've had to leave when they ran out of supplies. That, or mutiny, or they'd starve to death eventually. This much is a certainty.

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 3:38 PM. Reason : ...]

9/18/2006 3:29:33 PM

my point remains that innocent people died that shouldn't ahve.. agents and civilians

http://www.waco93.com/avareview.htm

interesting takes here

Quote :

"Were the Davidians stockpiling illegal weapons? Koresh was a small-scale gun dealer, buying and selling weapons and ammunition at area gun shows. So he had dozens of weapons. But if they were illegal, it was only under the technicalities of the law. Long before the initial raid, Koresh actually invited ATF agents to visit his home and inspect his weapons to clarify the often- blurry line between what's legal and what's not. But when the ATF arrived, it was not for purposes of examination and explanation. "

9/18/2006 3:35:44 PM

he should have cleared things up in court, instead of using his followers as hostages and responding with force against agents

he is the reason those innocent people died

9/18/2006 3:37:06 PM

Why's there only need to be one reason innoncent people died?

9/18/2006 3:39:15 PM

because its his fault

9/18/2006 3:40:13 PM

no it isn't

they didn't die until the ATF showed up

seriously... read the article I posted

9/18/2006 3:41:44 PM

so the ATF, went to do a raid that is done countless times a year, and when they get there, the Branch Davidians open fire on them, killing 4 and wounding 22, yet some how it is the fault of the ATF that Koresh opened fire on the ATF, which began the seige?

It's already been established by Branch Davidians that Koresh told everyone hours before the raid was to happen that no one was going out of the compound for a while.

9/18/2006 4:26:44 PM

He could've believed God was going to intervene and save them.

9/18/2006 4:27:30 PM

^^they still dont know to this day who fired the first shot

he had no intention of killing the people before the ATF showed up

and I never saw a single thing about the davidians lighting the fire themselves, ive never even heard taht side of teh story

some word around the net is that the tear gas erupted, and since the power had been cut off its possible that the fire did start from a lantern

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 4:29 PM. Reason : j]

9/18/2006 4:28:43 PM

Anyone find it funny that nobody know who fired the first shots that started the Revolutionary War, either?

9/18/2006 4:32:48 PM

the tear gas is not an incendiary agent. nothing in it could have set off a fire.

9/18/2006 4:33:29 PM

why does everyone trust the reported story in this considering how often you don't trust anything the government tells us now?

not trying to sound like salisburyboy, but there was another side to this that can no longer be revealed because people are DEAD... and the ATF knew that

do you think the government wanted to see that hit the courtroom?

why did they open fire on people trying to flee an open building

the fact of the matter is, you fuck with the government and they will stop you

9/18/2006 4:53:55 PM

March 12, 1997

New Documentary Reveals
What Really Happened at Waco

Federal Agents Machine-Gun the Truth

by Doug Holland


(Bookville, CA) On the afternoon of April 19, 1993, as fire destroyed the Branch Davidians' "compound" outside of Waco, Texas, federal agents walked around the outside of the church, shooting hundreds of rounds of machine-gun fire at people who tried to escape the flames. This is the most damning, completely-proven assertion in a new documentary, "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."

But before considering the film, a disclaimer: in the odd arena of news and analysis, anyone who questions certain official assumptions is generally assumed to be a nut. Well, I do not pay attention to the latest theories of who killed JFK, I have only minimal curiosity about crop circles, and this film is certainly not the schlocko video that's been circulating for a few years, claiming that the tanks at Waco had flame-shooting attachments. I'm a skeptical man, and the director of this film is just as skeptical: he used to be a network newsman, so if anything, this film is too objective. The narration is dry and dispassionate, even as the facts demand righteous indignation.

Ask any Americanùyour friends, your co-workers, yourselfùwhat happened at Waco, and you'll hear a recitation of the following facts:

David Koresh was a cult leader, a known child molester, and suspected drug dealer, who was stockpiling illegal weapons. Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) tried to serve a search warrant on Koresh's compound, but the Davidians had been tipped off. They ambushed the ATF, and when the dust cleared, four ATF agents and two Branch Davidians were dead.

Then the FBI came on the scene and tried for more than a month to negotiate a peaceful end to the standoff, but talks proved impossible because Koresh repeatedly agreed to various terms, then broke his word.

Finally, after 51 days of fruitless and frustrating talks, something had to be done. So tanks approached, piercing small holes in the walls of the compound and tear gas was pumped in, in hopes that the Branch Davidians would finally come out with their hands up. Instead, the cultists lit their compound on fire, committing mass suicide.

We know that's what happened because we saw it on TV. But as revealed by this stunning documentary, almost every word, almost every assertion in the preceding italicized paragraphs is untrue.

What happened is that a group you'd never heard of suddenly erupted into the headlines in February 1993, and by mid-April they'd been obliterated. In that month and a half, they were never permitted to talk to the press. Until this film, we've only been allowed to hear the Davidians' side of the story through the messages they painted on bedsheets and draped out their windows during the siege: "Rodney King, we understand." "FBI broke negotiations. We want press."

President Clinton said Koresh was "dangerous, irrational, and probably insane." But was he? Shown here in home videos, and preaching to his congregation, Koresh seems rarely weird, and not much nuttier than your average evangelical minister. The local sheriff says the Branch Davidians were "good people." They weren't insane, they were Christians. The "compound" was a "church." Their "cult leader" was just a Bible-thumping preacher.

Was Koresh a child molester? he bedded girls as young as 14; there's no dispute about that. But the girls consented, and their parents knew and had given permission. You might say that a grown man having sex with teenaged girls is disgusting, and I'd agree. However, under the circumstances, and under Texas law, no charges could be filed.

There is one girl who says that Koresh raped her. This is the only charge of sexual abuse which could theoretically be brought against Koresh if he had survived. However, while such an allegation must be taken seriously, it is completely irrelevant to everything that happened on and after February 28, 1993. Rape is not alcohol, rape is not tobacco, rape is not firearmsùthe Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has no jurisdiction over rape and child abuse.

Was Koresh a drug dealer? In a word, no. In order to gain access to a military base for full-scale "dress rehearsals," the ATF told Army officials that this would be an anti-drug raid. But there is simply no evidence that Koresh or the Branch Davidians were ever involved with drugs.

Were the Davidians stockpiling illegal weapons? Koresh was a small-scale gun dealer, buying and selling weapons and ammunition at area gun shows. So he had dozens of weapons. But if they were illegal, it was only under the technicalities of the law. Long before the initial raid, Koresh actually invited ATF agents to visit his home and inspect his weapons to clarify the often- blurry line between what's legal and what's not. But when the ATF arrived, it was not for purposes of examination and explanation.

On the morning of February 28, 1993, three ATF helicopters hovered behind the church to distract the Davidians as several truckloads of ATF agents arrived at the front of the building. According to agents' testimonies, the Davidians opened fire as the trucks approached. But in the film, these claims are juxtaposed against ATF photographs of the raid in progress. We see agents crouched and poised, their weapons aimed at the church's doors and windows, while other agents are in the open, only yards from the church. We see agents standing directly outside the church's windows, their backs to the building, holding ladders on which other agents climb up to the roof. Clearly these are not positions any police officer would take after being fired upon, so the assertion that the Davidians fired as ATF trucks approached cannot be true.

Koresh said that ATF opened fire, without provocation, when he came to the door. Koresh's lawyer, who visited the church during the standoff, says the front door was riddled with bullet holes from shots fired through the door from outside. The door, however, cannot be found.

Indeed, in several instances where the Davidians' version of events differs from the government version, crucial evidence has been lost, misplaced, or simply suppressed by the ATF and/or FBI.

After two hours of non-stop firing on the church, ATF agents finally backed away with their hands up because they had run out of bullets and grenades. Surely if Koresh had murderous intent, he and his followers could have slaughtered al of the ATF agents then and there. But instead, they were allowed to retreat.

It is common knowledge that a written report must be filed any time an American police officer fires his weapon in the line of duty. However, no written reports were filed by any of the ATF agents involved in the initial raid. The film, citing an ATF internal memo, reports that agents were ordered by their superiors not to file reports, because such reports "might tend to show that someone accused of a crime is innocent."

During the standoff, did Koresh repeatedly break his word in negotiations with the FBI? At one point, Koresh agreed that if a tape of his preaching was played on the radio, he would come out. After the tape was played, Koresh said God had told him to wait. But there were not "repeated lies" by Koresh; there was just that one. Careful study of the transcript reveals that Koresh followed through on everything else he promised.

9/18/2006 4:57:52 PM

By comparison, returning to the theater to see this film again a few nights later, I counted 35 statements by federal agents during negotiations with Koresh and during Congressional hearings afterwards, which were all plainly lies. One ATF agent in particular, Jim Cavanaugh, is shown telling enough proven and demonstrable lies before Congress that he could certainly be charged with giving false testimony.

On April 19, 1993, huge quantities of CS powder, mixed into an extremely flammable chemical compound, were pumped into the building. It was delivered in a form so concentrated, so strong, that many of the Davidians were probably killed by the gas, not by the fire. When CS burns it becomes hydrogen cyanide, the same gas used in gas chambers for prison executions. And as fire trucks approached, the FBI ordered them to wait for more then 20 minutes as the building burned.

How many of the Davidians were burned to death? How many were killed by the gas? And how many were killed by gunshots? We'll never know, because the FBI did not allow the local coroner's office to be involved with the autopsies. In fact, crucial evidence was seized from the county coroner's office and never returned. Autopsies were only allowed to be performed by the FBI laboratory, the same facility currently embroiled in scandals involving false evidence in many other cases.

One thing we do know, shown conclusively in this film, is how the fire started. It began when pyrotechnic devicesù firebombs, essentiallyù were shot into the building by hand-held FBI grenade launchers. After that, the flames are visible almost instantly.

Meanwhile, the M-60 tanks, rigged with bulldozer blades, had done much more than merely pierce holes in the walls. The film shows whole sections of the building being obliterated, stairways and exits destroyed, until only one door remained as the last way out. That's where two FBI agents were stationed, firing machine guns at anyone trying to flee the building.

The documentary shows heat-sensitive infra-red film taken during the fire, as Edward Allard, a night vision physicist who holds several patents on this technology, explains what it means. "Nothing in nature," Allard says, "has the thermal signature of gunshots." His conclusion is that the quick white blips on the screen, several blips per seconds, are gunshots from automatic weapons. Gunfire is shown coming from the tanks and from the positions adjacent to the tanks, into the flames, including a 30-second burst of "almost continuous gunfire" aimed directly at the building's last remaining exit.

If that's not enough, more evidence is presented. Conventional photography, filmed from the air and broadcast live on national television as the flames raged, shows brief but unmistakable glimpses of automatic weapons being fired into the building from the outside. Intercut against this are the repeated lies of the FBI, in press conferences and Congressional hearings, that "our agents didn't fire a single shot."

And the cover-up continues. The Congressional investigation had access to the same infra- red photography shown in the filmùand didn't even mention it in the hearings. 60 Minutes hired independent experts to analyze the same film, who concurred that it shows automatic gunfireùbut CBS never aired the report, "due to the potentially sensitive nature of this material...."

In Q&A with the filmmakers after the screening, I asked where and how the infra-red footage was obtained. The film's director, Dan Gifford, explained that the infra-red photography was actually shot by the FBI and has been introduced as evidence by the feds, at trial, at Congressional hearings, etc. So it's available to the public. The FBI has also released the tapes and transcripts which form much of the overwhelming evidence here.

In other words, the information is out there, and anyone an study it.

In my opinion, these records were released not because there's nothing to hide, but because the FBI is simply certain the media won't bother reading the transcripts, listening to the tapes, and watching the infra-red video. Indeed, as far as The New York Times in concerned, this story ended when the Branch Davidians "killed themselves." The American media's mantra is: Ask no questions, Believe what the official press release says.

But the Congressmen and women who saw the infra-red photography know the truth. 60 Minutes knows the truth. Presumably, Janet Reno and Bill Clinton know the truth. And people who see this movie will know the truth. Because nobody could watch this film and not be convinced that federal agents filled the building with flammable gas, ignited it, stationed men at the last exit to machine-gun any survivors, and lied at the Congressional hearings about every detail.

If you have any doubts or curiosity about the official version of these events, you owe it to yourself to see "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." It's a calm, well-reasoned, thoroughly- documented examination of the facts, which proves in the end that there were no rules of engagement whatsoever. The Waco disaster wasn't about law enforcement, it was simply the mass murder of American citizens by their government.

Nobody wants to believe this. But the evidence is plain. As the film's executive producer, Ann Sommer Gifford, said after the screening, "We'd love to hear another interpretation, but until we do, we have to believe the experts, and our own eyes."

9/18/2006 4:58:13 PM

Welcome to the world of the United States government.

USA #1! USA #!! USA #1!

9/18/2006 5:05:58 PM

Gamecat, these questions are silly.

Are you saying that someone who is arranging marriage with minors, not abiding by the laws of the US, and stockpiling weapons illegally should be allowed to go on without being arrested? And even more curiously, you say we should have waited them out rather than trying to arrest them on their compound. Are we supposed to wait out every possible criminal whom we have warrants to arrest? Can we not go into their homes and get them out if it is legal?


And to Pink/Black, you may have simply been making a quip about being libertarian, but I'll address this anyhow:
I guess you could say some of the ideas he harbors are libertarian-like in nature. However, the execution of those ideas is in no way libertarian, as we advocate changing policies and laws to fit our viewpoint rather than simply ignoring or disobeying the laws.

9/18/2006 5:12:46 PM

Why broaden the debate?

I can limit my argument rather easily to the Waco situation. Why not let them starve it out? What's to gain by running in and shooting a bunch of assholes that don't want to pay their taxes?

9/18/2006 5:29:47 PM

if cops get resistance while attempting to serve a warrant should they just wait it out? thats what you are saying

9/18/2006 5:37:16 PM

I agree, wait it out when there are women and children inside, innocent people that didnt do the shooting. i think something like 20+ children burned in there. Wait it out, these people were religious guys and according to that article, they didnt even do HALF the stuff that was told they did. Hell, its exactly right, koresh had consent, I just think one guy had a personal vendetta and the government screwed up big time. Id love to see that video, freedom of religion? it doesnt seem that way, looks like the government just jumped into something that they didnt research or even look in depth into...

Im sure the flames were ignited or caused by the agents, thats not a doubt of mine.

9/18/2006 6:03:10 PM

yeah, the agents started 3 simultaneous fires and doused the dividians clothes in accelerants while they werent looking

agents using fire when they had regular weapons is more likely than koresh brain washing them and making his followers start a fire so they could die as martyrs

9/18/2006 6:05:33 PM

Quote :

"Was Koresh a child molester? he bedded girls as young as 14; there's no dispute about that. But the girls consented, and their parents knew and had given permission. You might say that a grown man having sex with teenaged girls is disgusting, and I'd agree. However, under the circumstances, and under Texas law, no charges could be filed. There is one girl who says that Koresh raped her. This is the only charge of sexual abuse which could theoretically be brought against Koresh if he had survived. However, while such an allegation must be taken seriously, it is completely irrelevant to everything that happened on and after February 28, 1993. Rape is not alcohol, rape is not tobacco, rape is not firearmsùthe Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has no jurisdiction over rape and child abuse. Was Koresh a drug dealer? In a word, no. In order to gain access to a military base for full-scale "dress rehearsals," the ATF told Army officials that this would be an anti-drug raid. But there is simply no evidence that Koresh or the Branch Davidians were ever involved with drugs. Were the Davidians stockpiling illegal weapons? Koresh was a small-scale gun dealer, buying and selling weapons and ammunition at area gun shows. So he had dozens of weapons. But if they were illegal, it was only under the technicalities of the law. Long before the initial raid, Koresh actually invited ATF agents to visit his home and inspect his weapons to clarify the often- blurry line between what's legal and what's not. But when the ATF arrived, it was not for purposes of examination and explanation"

9/18/2006 6:13:33 PM

Read Unintended Consequences. Kinda shrill, but it makes the point well: it was the government having fun with its power.

The Dravidians (?) were weird all right, but extermination was the wrong answer.

9/18/2006 6:14:29 PM

did u not read that article up there? and its clear in the videos the fire started at the right side of the building and the wind forced it to move down the building, thats clear and evident. I dont buy the part about them lighting it themselves, Koresh said it was sinful to commit suicide and since he thought he was the second coming of christ i dont htink he would light himself on fire. it states he was found with a bullet hole in his head, but who says the Govt didnt shoot him to say that he killed himself anyways. u can clearly see the guys at the door machine gunning whoever comes out, then they run up and drag their bodies towards the tanks, regain position and fire again. i dont think the davidians lit it themselves, even the survivors say that they never lit a fire and they say in their accounts the fire started and just went like a heat wave down the building, like there was 'something in the air that was flammable.' that pretty much sums it up for me, the videos are evident.

9/18/2006 6:14:46 PM

that article is just wrong

cs gas isnt flammable (and only lasts about 10 minutes)
the deaths were from asphyxiation from the fire, they know this from the autopsies (they were done despite what that article says)
accelerants were found on the clothes of the dividians

mistakes were made, but koresh is why those children were dead

9/18/2006 6:23:18 PM

was Koresh the reason?

if the ATF against had never made all those stupid aggressive moves they would have lived.
and who says those reports are wrong, why cant the govts reports be wrong for once? yea yea agents died, but so did innocent kids, at least try and negotiate with them a while longer, dont be so stupidly aggressive. the negotiators were PISSED at the moves that were made, watch the movies, u will learn alot about the situation. have u seen anything about it? seen the videos?

9/18/2006 6:27:24 PM

im saying the reports were wrong to, people often try to cover their ass

but koresh brainwashed these people to follow him to their deaths, and then killed them all

9/18/2006 6:29:29 PM

i dunno about to their deaths, he certainly brainwashed them, they still have a church there devoted to his followings. but im not sure he really didnt see this coming, he actually prophecized(sp?) that the government would come in and try and take them down, and hell would burst forth.

just watch the videos man, theres alot more to it and you have read it seems, u seem to think because he brainwashed them then he wanted to kill them. its not just about all that, theres alot more to it. alot more stuff happened than what was just reported.

9/18/2006 6:32:06 PM

ive seen the video, ive also seen many other investigative reports on this

they died from the fire and their clothes had accelerants on them. he wanted a standof, he wanted people to die so that his prophecies would become true. its called self-actualizing prophecy


david koresh could have saved all of those lives, but instead killed them

9/18/2006 6:34:20 PM

i still believe there was at least someeeee cover up on it. I mean i know the dude had it coming and all and u dont mess around with the feds and all, but still they could have done it a little more humanely, do u agree with that? i mean if they set themselves on fire, whatever, but havin the tanks demolish the place and puttin tear gas in the house was a bad idea, a terrible idea...should have just waited longer.

9/18/2006 6:41:50 PM

of course i think mistakes were made, but the fbi agents did not murder those children
branch dividians started those fires, and koresh wouldnt let anyone leave

9/18/2006 6:43:03 PM