Going potty in the kennel while we are away. Doesn't matter that we just took him out right before we left or that we take him out as soon as we get home or wake up. He never did this and spent more hours in the kennel than he does now before so I don't understand why this new behavior is occuring. He KNOWS he is a bad boy when we come home or wake up and see this. I'm tired of giving this dog and his kennel a bath two times a day because he literally rolled all in the shit that's in his kennel. The kennel isn't too big either, just enough room to turn around and lay down in, why would he go potty where he sleeps?! That's against den instinct!!!!!!! I don't know what to do about this so I would appreciate recommendations because this added stress is not needed right now.

He has a sensitive stomach too, he suddenly explodes from the butt for no reason every once in a while but it lasts forever. We are in the process of switching his food from Eukanuba to Canidae which is more bland but has more natural ingredients like Eagle Pack. We give him cottage cheese to settle his stomach. He eats, he's active he drinks, he just explodes and I'm thinking it's due to a sensitive stomach which my vet suggested last time he exploded but maybe you guys hae other ideas as to what it might be.

Ok thanks for the replies.

9/20/2006 8:28:32 PM

it is sick. take it to the vet.

9/20/2006 8:34:49 PM

let josh numbers take care of it

9/20/2006 8:46:23 PM

I just took him to the vet a month ago and all they did was give him i/d and some pills to decrease the bacteria in his stomach to harden his stool. They didn't "find" anything wrong other than suggest that he might have a sensitive stomach. Some days it's solid other days it's fine. I'll probably end up taking him to the vet and force them to find the actual problem but I was just wondering if that could be avoided with cheaper alternatives because this sensitive stomach thing is an issue with lots of dogs.

And that was pretty funny dnl, I chuckled.

9/20/2006 8:55:17 PM

maybe he's angry/acting you b/c you moved?

9/20/2006 8:56:22 PM

If that's the issue then I don't know how to correct it because he knows as soon as I get him that he's been a bad boy and I don't have to say anything. If there is poop in there when I let him out the tail is between the legs and he knows it's a bad thing that he did. I've tried keeping him in the bathroom with potty pads but he shreds those to pieces and I don't want him swallowing that stuff. Even in the bathroom he could get in trouble with stuff while we're not watching. sdkl;ghdakjlgheqrgbqerljgkqdhgwdf

9/20/2006 9:00:45 PM

Sounds like your dog is developing separation anxiety. We are going through it with our dog now. We've had her for about 2-3 years now and it just started. Her thing is eating the cat's litter, getting into the trash, and shewing any paper based products within reach. We come home and if she's done something she'll just start cowering and peeing on the floor without us doing or saying anything. SHe knows what she is doing is bad but she can't help it. It has nothing to do with how much/what we feed her, items in the trashcan, or anything like that... its just the actions she takes when the panic comes. You can put your dog on an anti-depressant (like Prozac) and that usually works. You'll also need to take a look at your own behavior that might be edging it on.

9/20/2006 10:30:25 PM

What kind of behavior would cause separation anxiety? I haven't done anything differently than before. Granted there was a two month period where I was home all the time or he went with me wherever so he rarely had to stay in his kennel but now I have a job and he needs to be in his kennel for a few of those days. I've been frustrated with him lately and reprimanding him for this behavior but I still play with him give him treats let him know he's a good boy and such just not during the action............

Oye.

[Edited on September 20, 2006 at 11:43 PM. Reason : eryrwyer]

9/20/2006 11:42:41 PM

Why do you have to lock him up in a kennel when you're gone?

9/20/2006 11:59:03 PM

^I was about to ask the same thing. How long have you had him?

Once he's crate-trained (kennel-trained), he should stay out all day and only sleep in his kennel.

9/21/2006 12:04:25 AM

Wouldn't surprise me if that did it (the time at home). It appeared in our dog in the month or two between my wife finishing vet school and starting her residency when she was at home.

Scolding the dog when you come home and find that he's messed also perpetuates the problem. To be honest, the dog probably cannot put the two together. Its getting confused because it misses you and is happy and you normally are too but now you are angry with it and its scared and confused. Eventually your dog will come to expect the scolding when you come home (not able to understand that its only when it messes) and will simply start getting anxious over that and likely to induce the wetting and such. Not sure if you;ve ever had to deal with a depression like symptom but it is rough because its self-perpetuating and its not always rational. Throw in the fact that a dog has an IQ of a shrub (think of how most dogs can't even figure out how to go in the reverse direction to unwind from a tree) and its easy to see why they get confused.. they don't have deductive reasoning and they have shit for memory. A good way of thinking of this problem is how young kids under extreme stress, especially abuse, have uncontrollable bed-wetting problems... its a fear/anxiety problem that triggers body functions because of the stress.

Its also bad to get super excited with the dog when you first get home (amplifies the separation anxiety). You also don't want to use the kennel as punishment

I'm sure you can find a good amount of literature on separation anxiety... its often fixable with behavior modification but sometimes you have to use medicine (like we are going to have to do) and its pretty expensive.

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 12:11 AM. Reason : .]

9/21/2006 12:09:07 AM

I keep him in the kennel while I'm gone because he can get into other things and choke or get electrocuted or cause mayhem while people aren't watching him. He's only 7 months old and has never had free reign while we were gone. Even when we watch him he tries to do silly things but we're there so we can correct it. Dogs aren't too stupid, they do have conditioned learning, if they go potty outside and you get all excited about it and praise them they learn that's a positive thing and begin to do it. Same way with negative behaviors. It's jsut really frustrating and stressful to have the dog do this everytime he is in the kennel. It's such a mess to clean up when dogs don't even like to rest in their own wastes, instinctively it's wrong so it doesn't make much sense as to why he is doing it! We take him out before he goes in the kennel and stand around until he squirts something out but when we return or wake up that awful smell and mess is there.

I'll try to be calm about it when he does something like this but after a long hard day of work I'm usually tired and hungry which just makes me agitated. I've never had a dog go through this kind of thing before and I wish there was a simple fix to this.

9/21/2006 12:26:18 AM

There is no such thing as a simple fix with dogs -- didn't you know what you were getting into? You should probably get him a little dog gate or something to keep him penned into an area of the house, but not in a kennel that long everyday -- it's pretty fucking cruel.

9/21/2006 12:32:05 AM

Yes, they have conditional learning but they also can suffer from depression which is going to alter their behavior. Like I said, this didn;t happen in our dog until 2-3 years nto ownership and its gotten progressively worse despite attempts to curtail it. My wife is a vet too so its not like we aren't attentive to what goes on with the dog. Some dogs are more prone to axiety/depression, just like some humans are.

Oh, I'd also consider leaving some talk radio, music, or something on while you are away. Some dogs will be calmed by hearing the talking and noise. And don't scold your dog at all when you come home and it has messed in the crate... you want to eliminate any arrival stress fears before you can correct the others.

Quote :

"it's pretty fucking cruel."

No its not. Dogs sleep 13-16 hours a day... if you could watch a dog while you are gone it pretty much sleeps the entire time, and does so usually in one or two repeated spots.



[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 12:37 AM. Reason : .]

9/21/2006 12:35:29 AM

Most training issues are easy to fix with consistent training fucktard. Separation anxiety is a little bit more complex and something I've never dealt with. He's in the kennel over night and about two days a week unless I can bring him to work with me. When I have left him out he pees and poops inside which slows the potty training down so keeping him in a kennel that's supposed to act as his den he can learn to hold it. As soon as I know he won't have any accidents he's free to roam otherwise I'm gonna keep working with him on this.

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 12:39 AM. Reason : ^Thanks for the advice I'll keep my anger in and try this stuff. ]

9/21/2006 12:38:03 AM

Quote :

"No its not. Dogs sleep 13-16 hours a day... if you could watch a dog while you are gone it pretty much sleeps the entire time, and does so usually in one or two repeated spots."

We sleep 6-8, would you like to do it in a tiny little cage? I think we rather enjoy picking a nice, spatious area to sleep in. I don't know, it doesn't seem right to take an animal and put it in a crate all day long, whether it sleeps or not.

9/21/2006 12:42:40 AM

Quote :

"Separation anxiety is a little bit more complex and something I've never dealt with. He's in the kennel over night and about two days a week unless I can bring him to work with me."

It's not separation anxiety if you're not being consistent. Your dog should be in the kennel on a regular schedule--even if you're home. That's the way that type of training works. You can't always keep him in some days because you're away and let him out others because you want company.

Try to make sure there's a specific time of day that he can be out every day--night time for most folks.

Keep him on a schedule, and soon he'll be able to roam the home. Furthermore, if you're not willing to train your dog against chewing and whatnot, you need to be prepared to simply remove things from his reach while you're out of the house. Also, don't invest in super expensive furniture.

(If he's doing his business in his kennel, consider coming home an extra time and taking him out to do his business on a regular schedule.)

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 1:59 AM. Reason : sss]

9/21/2006 1:52:05 AM

feed him white rice and chicken (white meat) only for a week... then gradually give him food and rice mixed together for a few more days... then straight to food... should clear him up...

also, don't feed him for day to give his system a chance to clear out...

this is of couse only if he has hershey squirts... if not, then who knows

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 7:33 AM. Reason : ...]

9/21/2006 7:32:11 AM

Kiwi how large is the kennel in relation to his size? Does he have room to potty in one corner and curl up in a clean space? Or is he fairly confined? (I know you said it isn't that big...I guess its hard to get a visual) Regardless of if he chooses to roll in his messes, if you restrict his kennel space (when potty training) most dogs will choose to hold it for as long as they can because they don't like to dirty their living space. Once he learns to "hold it" (as he matures) you can expand his kennel space (both to accomodate his growth and also to allow him room to stretch out). There are wire kennels that have expandable barriers for this very purpose.

Secondly, how long is he left alone? If he potties in his crate, then he can't be trusted, nor expected to hold it. How is he an hour alone? 2 hours? 4? 6? 8? If you can't stop by to check on him then find someone who can. Start with short periods of time then work your way up to multiple hours. If you can't be home, consider doggy day care or a petsitting service?

Also, I'm sure you take him out to potty before you leave. Is it a quick potty or do you exercise him well? Some dogs like to hold their bowels and need to go multiple times. Maybe your dog does this? I've found that good exercise usually [literally] brings it out of them.

WHAT kind of dog do you have? How large (or small) is he? Try adding a tablespoon of PURE pumpkin to his food (make sure it is JUST pumpkin...without any spices). Cottage cheese is good...just don't add too much.

Canidae is an EXCELLENT food! I fed my pup Dakota Canidae for a while, but it continued to give her runny poops. It is a VERY protein/nutrient rich food, and some dogs are not able to handle it. I have Dakota on Timberwolf Organics (also an excellent, organic food...hundreds of times better then anything in a grocery store). She is doing marvelous on it!!!

I'm sure you're aware of this, but moving from Eukanuba to Canidae is a BIG change in food quality (ok--->excellent). You are certainly moving in the right direction, but again, you might need to take about 2 weeks to transition your pup because of the difference in richness.

You can PM me if you have any questions...gotta run for now!!



edit: listen to what ^ said also. Very good advice.

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 8:21 AM. Reason : ref above post]

9/21/2006 8:20:14 AM

People read her posts.

The Kennel is the right size. It is a puppy. It is in the process of crate training, which takes a short amount of time for bathroom training but at least a year for chew training.

Kiwi, I had a similar problem w/ my new 18 week old recently. Turns out it was an intestinal parasite that the first vet missed. Let me say that again. THE FIRST VET MISSED IT. Our new vet found it, wrote the correct prescription, and the problem is gone. I'm not in the Raleigh area so I can't refer you.

I was going through the same kind of confusion you were. I crated my first dog and it made me a believer, but nothing like this ever happened.

To those ignorant of crate training: at least look into it before you blast it. If you've never raised a puppy without mommy and daddy there to do the work, you have no clue. It is the accepted method for inside dogs. It is cruel not to crate train. Kennel training is the most loving thing you can do for an inside dog.

Kiwi, a good rule of thumb when this happens to a crate trained dog is: Don't scold, go to the vet. It's not psycological, it's biological.

9/21/2006 8:38:44 AM

When you're crate training the puppy, you should leave the kennel open all day, even when you are there. He should come to recognize it as his "den" and not just some place he has to go when you leave. One of my dogs stays in a kennel during the day, and many times he goes in there to lay down even when we're home with him. He had the potty in the kennel problem up until about 7 or 8 months too, and sometimes he would go weeks w/o doing anything, only to have a problem strech of a week or so. he's about 14 months old now, and he's been good for 4 or 5 months.

As for the stomach problems, the vet told me to feed my dogs baby carrots b/c the fiber helps their digestive system..........they really like them too.

9/21/2006 9:01:11 AM

when I first got my lab, he was a few months old and very timid, I got him from the animal shelter. anyways, while crate training my dog (a lesson learned after he destroyed about 2 grand worth of stuff in the apt) he had the explosive poo for a lil while. and he got left in the crate for only an hour or two at a time. there were a few causes, one, the change in diet; 2, the vet said was separation anxiety and he was doing it for the attention; and 3, he was sick.

so after some drugs that the vet gave him, leaving on the tv, and enlisting some friends to drop by when I was gone, all the explosive poo and peeing went away.

the crazy thing was that I house trained him even before I got the crate, he would just go in the crate.

now, when I'm home (deployed now) we go running in the mornings (helps move things along), and we spend time playing when I get home. He's also got the run of the apt and does sleep in his crate (or on the couch by the door lol) until I get home.

I'd definately recommend another vet visit, and healthy dose of patience. Anyone who tells you that crate training is cruel is a retarded idiot. The crate becomes their "safe place", their "spot" where they feel safe and all that happy jazz. I know my lab goes in there when he just wants to chill and be left alone for a bit (probably so he can lick his peen and butt)

good luck!!

9/21/2006 9:02:53 AM

if you crate it when you are sleeping you shouldnt crate for prolonged periods of time while you are gone, like for 8 hours at work per say.

crating for more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period could constitute animal abuse.

9/21/2006 9:20:04 AM

well then, if you take a dog to a kennel while out of town, they abuse the hell out of it.

9/21/2006 9:44:31 AM

Quote :

"feed him white rice and chicken (white meat) only for a week... then gradually give him food and rice mixed together for a few more days... then straight to food... should clear him up..."

what i was going to tell you.
just grilled some chicken breasts ( no seasoning) and cook plain white rice. its the blandest food you can get. always good for motivating sick dogs to eat when they have no appetite.

I've had to do this for all my dogs when their stomachs are upset. year ago I tried switching one of my dogs from ProPlan to some really expensive high protein food (gold something...) and she "exploded". it took me like 2 months to get her back to normal. i ended up putting her back on proplan and just supplementing her diet.

try switching your dog back to eukanuba. its still a premium food.

the stomach issue could be whats making it mess in the crate. whenever one of my dogs are sick -no matter what the illness is- they seem to have trouble holding it and always mess in the crate. they just feel awful. having an upset stomach and loose stools sounds like the main problem.

if and when you can get his digestive tract back to normal - the accidents should stop.



try moving the crate to another room/area of the house. i sometimes leave a fan on or a radio for my dogs (white noise and seems to calm any anxiety).
you could possibly try gating him into the kitchen or other room.

dont scold him when you come home. he already feels awful. just bring him outside and then praise him once he does his business. then clean the mess. then give him lots of attention.


or call your vet.

9/21/2006 9:51:09 AM

I crate both of my dogs at night and while I am at work. I come home for lunch and my wife gets home early, so they typically are only crated for about 3 hrs at a time during the day. They still go in the crate on their own at nights just to hang out and chill. I initially had reservations about leaving them in a crate for so long, but like someone already said they are gonna sleep while you are gone anyways. I play with them and make sure they have plenty of excersize when I get home in the afternoons anyways.


The only time one of them had diarrhea in the crate was when we first got him from a rescue and he was really timid and unused to his surroundings. We just cleaned it up for the first few days and he eventually got used to it and calmed down. Never had any problems since.

9/21/2006 9:56:19 AM

i've always crate trained my dogs (personal and fosters)

dogs are den animals. they like having a safe place to sleep and relax. read up on animal behavior.

i have a dog room. its the laundry room and has a door that leads to the fenced back yard. its pretty big - maybe 12 ft by 8 ft... L shaped.
i only crate one of my 4 dogs now and thats because he can be destructive. the other 3 are older and never have accidents or destroy stuff. but they are crated on occasions (traveling, etc..). but there's 4 of them in the room with tons of beds, blankets, toys, treats, food, water so i dont feel bad about leaving them in there for hours. they stay outside in the backyard except when its raining or extremely hot or cold during the day. from 6am-4pm usually. and they come in and hang out with us at night. they sleep in their room at night.

i like having more than one dog - they're pack animals and in most cases enjoy the company.
plus mine play and run around together so less i have to personally exercise them

9/21/2006 10:40:05 AM

yeah, it made such a difference in the destructive behavior of my first one when I got my second. I thought it might be more difficult to have two dogs, but it has made it sooo much easier because they keep each other entertained.

9/21/2006 10:54:25 AM

dont know if its been said yet but, proper exercise cures a lot of problems.

you should take your puppy out for at least 30 minutes of running, playing or whatever gets him/her tired before you leave everday.

take it to an open field and just let it run for about 30 minutes.

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 11:17 AM. Reason : as]

9/21/2006 11:16:41 AM

Ask your vet to test for giardia. A lot of vets don't test for this and assume it is whipworms, hookworms, roundworms, etc. If he is "EXPLODING" then it is probably either a parasite, bacteria, problem, or a food problem. I doubt it is separation anxiety (but i could be wrong). Getting angry with him about doing something he can't help is bad. If he is exploding with his poop then he probably can't help it. I would take him back to the vet and do another fecal and ask for Panacur. If that doesn't help then ask them to do a giardia snap test. good luck

9/21/2006 3:52:28 PM

I'd say he's broken, return him for a newer model.

9/21/2006 5:06:31 PM

Good idea.

9/21/2006 6:29:23 PM

poor doggie just wants to be loved and not cooped up in a crate all day

9/21/2006 6:53:09 PM

what type of dog is it?

[Edited on September 21, 2006 at 8:03 PM. Reason : .]

9/21/2006 8:03:09 PM

^ some breeds can act out, especially "smart" ones. border collies, jack russels, etc.

9/21/2006 8:07:14 PM

Papillon. Smart but I don't think smart enough for that. Although he never tore up the wee wee pad until just recently.

9/21/2006 8:56:28 PM

the dog has too many words in it

9/21/2006 9:35:10 PM

Oh wait...nevermind, it's a punting breed, it's SUPPOSED to be an utter pain.

9/22/2006 2:54:54 PM

Spoke with someone who worked at a vet for years and she said it sounds like Irritable Bowel Syndrome which is what my vet in Raleigh said it might be if those type of symptoms continue. I guess that's how he responds to stress. I'm going to try a really bland diet of human foods and see how that affects things. She said I could take him to the vet and get drugs that he'll have to take all his life or fix it naturally like she did with her greyhound by feeding him certain foods. Good stuff.

9/22/2006 10:49:58 PM

Oh, no... not a greyhound owner...

9/23/2006 1:00:03 AM