Bush says we cant leave the iraqi disaster bc the terrorists would feel like they won and they would be emboldened.

Why shouldnt we do whats best for our country? Would the positive impact of leaving iraq not outweigh to the potentnial downside of a few pleased terrorists?

10/2/2006 12:47:47 PM

Quote :

"Would the positive impact of leaving iraq not outweigh to the potentnial downside of a few pleased terrorists?"

no it wouldnt

10/2/2006 12:54:11 PM

i agree with bush on this, but i also think its impossible to win a war like this

the only solution i can see involves a time machine

10/2/2006 12:55:01 PM

my sense of right and wrong says that we made this god-forsaken mess and we owe it to the people of iraq to clean it up.

my sense of reality though says that the current administration couldn't organize, plan and execute a bake sale without fucking it up.

so we're all pretty much fucked no matter what we do and the iraqis are the ones that'll have to deal with cleaning up the pieces. if there are any of them left by the time it's all over.

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 12:56 PM. Reason : *]

10/2/2006 12:55:25 PM

Quote :

"no it wouldnt"

our government says the iraq war has made more terrorists, and has made the world less safe. therefore, simple logic



dictates we must remove to make the world safer.

10/2/2006 12:56:07 PM

Quote :

"our government says the iraq war has made more terrorists, and has made the world less safe. therefore, simple logic"

our government also says we must win this war, if you read any more of the NIE report

therefore, simple logic

10/2/2006 12:57:23 PM

Quote :

"our government also says we must win this war"

but simple logic dictates that victory has already been achieved. we won. sadam is captured.

10/2/2006 12:58:24 PM

ibtl

10/2/2006 12:58:47 PM

^suspend for trolling

10/2/2006 1:01:07 PM

man you sure are doing a lot to improve your credibility when it comes to posting in SB

10/2/2006 1:01:32 PM

...says the guy who won't vote.

10/2/2006 1:02:28 PM

oooh what a cutdown!

how bout you sober

HAVE YOUR VOTES MAKE A DIFFERENCE YET


[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 1:03 PM. Reason : .]

10/2/2006 1:02:56 PM

suspend for not voting

10/2/2006 1:03:55 PM

vote or die

10/2/2006 1:04:25 PM

you won't vote becuase you don't think it makes a difference, yet you will post about politics on tww until your fingers fall off.

brilliant.

10/2/2006 1:06:26 PM

TreeTwista you won't vote? On what? I missed the thread that was covered, perhaps link it for me?

10/2/2006 1:06:31 PM

he won't vote in the capital one mascot tournament.

10/2/2006 1:08:13 PM

Quote :

"you won't vote becuase you don't think it makes a difference, yet you will post about politics on tww until your fingers fall off. "

hey what do you know...neither of those things accomplishes anything

at least you conceded that your votes havent meant shit

COME ON GUYS, THIS ELECTION MIGHT COME DOWN TO ONE SINGLE VOTE...HEY LETS PLAY POWERBALL WE HAVE A REALISTIC CHANCE OF WINNING

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 1:08 PM. Reason : .]

10/2/2006 1:08:15 PM

Quote :

"Why shouldnt we do whats best for our country? Would the positive impact of leaving iraq not outweigh to the potentnial downside of a few pleased terrorists?"

Because the initial invasion and the current situation, while tied, are two seperate debates. There's no denying now that the invasion and initial occupation of Iraq has created a giant fubar. However, an immediate withdrawal is only going to leave an even greater mess behind. We have historical examples such as Somalia and Afghanistan to remind us of what can happen if you abandon a nation before any semblance of stability can be reestablished.

Quote :

"Bush says we cant leave the iraqi disaster bc the terrorists would feel like they won and they would be emboldened."

An strong case can be made that the immediate United States withdrawal from Somalia after the entire Black Hawk Down mess emboldened many extremists during the 1990s. If we simply leave, we arew only validating the brutal tactics that are currently being used by the opposition in Iraq: just create enough chaos and mindless slaughter and even the greatest military in the world will give up and go home.

Quote :

"my sense of reality though says that the current administration couldn't organize, plan and execute a bake sale without fucking it up."

I completely agree that we created this mess, but I also believe that we have a responsibility to try and clean it up. We are afterall, the only group that can hold that country together until the Iraqis can cobble something together. Unfortunately, as 30thAnnZ pointed out, confidence in our leadership is not exactly at a high point right now.

10/2/2006 1:09:22 PM

Quote :

"at least you conceded that your votes havent meant shit "

i have not. i firmly believe that voting is the most important thing you can do as an american citizen. if you don't vote, shut the hell up......your opinion doesn't matter.

i merely pointed out how you won't vote because you don't think it will do anything, yet you have no problem posting on here all day, which i will concede doesn't do shit.

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 1:13 PM. Reason : do]

10/2/2006 1:12:55 PM

Quote :

"if you don't vote, shut the hell up......your opinion doesn't matter."

if you voted in NC for gore or kerry your opinion doesnt matter either because NC was a red state

i do think its cute though how you think your voice will be heard! come on guys lets go out and vote, we can make a difference!

i dont depend on corrupt politicians to provide anything to me except hopefully some national security

10/2/2006 1:16:31 PM

Can we not agree to ignore TreeTwista? I know I am no longer motivated to respond to anything he posts, and you shouldn't be either.

10/2/2006 1:18:38 PM

Quote :

"e have historical examples such as Somalia and Afghanistan to remind us of what can happen if you abandon a nation before any semblance of stability can be reestablished."

yea well, thats where you and everyone else disagrees. its not in our constitution that we're the nation builders. we're suppose to care about ourselves and our secuirity.

10/2/2006 1:18:56 PM

Quote :

"if you voted in NC for gore or kerry your opinion doesnt matter either because NC was a red state i do think its cute though how you think your voice will be heard! come on guys lets go out and vote, we can make a difference!"

If everyone took that opinion then I would be the only one voting.

10/2/2006 1:19:43 PM

Quote :

"i dont depend on corrupt politicians to provide anything to me except hopefully some national security"

10/2/2006 1:21:10 PM

Quote :

" if you voted in NC for gore or kerry your opinion doesnt matter either because NC was a red state i do think its cute though how you think your voice will be heard! come on guys lets go out and vote, we can make a difference! i dont depend on corrupt politicians to provide anything to me except hopefully some national security "

well its a good thing that i voted for other seats as well....there is more to voting then simply for the president....but i wouldnt expect you to know that, you dont vote.

in fact, i think too many people overlook local politics....a lot of times you are affected more by the decisions of a local politician then you are by the president.



[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 1:23 PM. Reason : df]

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 1:23 PM. Reason : d]

10/2/2006 1:23:07 PM

the only changes i'm likely to face are some different tax rates and procedures

and since i'm going to pay my taxes regardless of who's in office, who cares

maybe when i have kids i will give a shit but i can get by just fine right now regardless of who's in any office

the voting portion of the general population will regulate so that nobody TOO crazy gets elected

10/2/2006 1:25:48 PM

Quote :

"the voting portion of the general population will regulate so that nobody TOO crazy gets elected"

Well, America did elect Bush and DC did elect marion Barry, and Cincinati did elect Jerry Springer.

10/2/2006 1:28:37 PM

Quote :

"the voting portion of the general population will regulate so that nobody TOO crazy gets elected"

10/2/2006 1:29:28 PM

Quote :

"Well, America did elect Bush and DC did elect marion Barry, and Cincinati did elect Jerry Springer. "

10/2/2006 1:30:38 PM

Quote :

"yea well, thats where you and everyone else disagrees. its not in our constitution that we're the nation builders. we're suppose to care about ourselves and our secuirity."

Minus the small fact that these pockets of instability were the breeding grounds for many of the greatest threats to our recent security. The folks who struck the USS Cole, blew up our embassies in Africa, and of course 9/11 were trained in a chaotic Afghanistan; an Afghanistan that we abandoned to these elements. Many analysts and interviews also verify that much of Al Qaeda's belief that such attacks would even be effective stems from our abrupt pull out from Somalia.

10/2/2006 1:42:24 PM

bush isnt "TOO crazy" imo

course i'm not the one bitching about him every single day either

10/2/2006 1:42:28 PM

course you didnt vote, so it doesnt really matter what you think.

10/2/2006 1:43:12 PM

Quote :

"bush isnt "TOO crazy" imo course i'm not the one bitching about him every single day either"

I earned my right to bitch when I voted. What about Springer and Barry? Or what about Foley?

10/2/2006 1:46:30 PM

Quote :

"Minus the small fact that these pockets of instability were the breeding grounds for many of the greatest threats to our recent security. The folks who struck the USS Cole, blew up our embassies in Africa, and of course 9/11 were trained in a chaotic Afghanistan; an Afghanistan that we abandoned to these elements. Many analysts and interviews also verify that much of Al Qaeda's belief that such attacks would even be effective stems from our abrupt pull out from Somalia. "

so by that logic we must invade every instable coutntry that has terrorists. ie, the rest of the world.

10/2/2006 1:48:30 PM

we should invade ourselves, too

10/2/2006 2:11:31 PM

Quote :

"so by that logic we must invade every instable coutntry that has terrorists. ie, the rest of the world."

Surely you can see the distinction of nations with no functioning government such as Afghanistan prior to 2001 and Somalia, particularly since both were effectively abandoned by the international community. Leaving a total vacuum of any order whatsoever is what breeds the sorts of trouble that have haunted us for a decade and a half.

10/2/2006 2:32:42 PM

It still begs the question, could we still leave and come out better in the end.

Past problems, while relevant, aren't always perfect predictors of future problems (in regards to unstable countries).

All the money we are hemorraging in Iraq could be spent on better intelligence and other more proven means of stopping terrorism. So while we might embolden enemies, it might be cheaper and just as effective in the long run at catching these embolden terrorist (and surely this "emboldening" doesn't last forever).

I agree with others that it's unfortunate we got ourselves into this, and I agree that we should attempt to try to help them fix the situation if it is a realistically acheivable goal, but not with the same leadership that made the same fucked up decision to go in, and will continue to make dumb decisions until the people speak and get them out.



When Ford Motor Company finally saw the light that they are nearly fucked in their current situation with shitty looking, shitty quality, gas guzzling vehicles, they didn't say, well, were in this mess now, we'll figure a way out with the same man at the helm that got them in the mess, they kicked his ass out and brought some new blood in. And this is what bothers me more than anything about the current state of politics. No one wants to sit down and here the other sides viewpoint. Entirely too much politics is going on, and not enough governing.

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 2:50 PM. Reason : a]

10/2/2006 2:48:46 PM

Quote :

"course you didnt vote, so it doesnt really matter what you think."

and if you voted for the losing candidate, your opinion doesnt matter either

let alone the fact that the only opinions that do matter are those of the elected politicians, since we are in a constitutional representative republic as opposed to a "true" democracy

the funny thing is we have something in common...neither of us voted for Bush

I however am not the one whining and crying about him every single day

10/2/2006 3:54:22 PM

if the winning candidate had to change his views more towards the center to win, then yes, voting for the loser makes a difference too.

10/2/2006 3:55:13 PM

Quote :

"and if you voted for the losing candidate, your opinion doesnt matter either "

it most certainly does. if my opinion didn't matter, why would candidates spend so much money on advertising? my presidential candidate may not have won during the last election, but other people i have voted for have won. you can't say the same.

Quote :

"he funny thing is we have something in common...neither of us voted for Bush "

i voted for Bush in 2000....looks like you are wrong again.

Quote :

"I however am not the one whining and crying about him every single day"

nor am i, but if i did, i would have every right to...because i took the 5 minutes to vote. you did not.

10/2/2006 4:00:02 PM

what a stupid fucking thread.

10/2/2006 4:07:33 PM

^^please tell me where in the constitution it says that I only receive freedoms if I vote, since you are on your "I voted you didnt...therefore I am better than you and have more rights" bullshit speal

ps thanks for voting for Bush in 2000...you probably made the difference to help him win the election!

10/2/2006 4:08:55 PM

i dont need the constitution to tell me that i am better then you. you prove that each and every day.

10/2/2006 4:11:39 PM

Quote :

"better then you"

are all your self pwnts unintentional?

10/2/2006 4:28:01 PM

Stop grammar ninjaing.

10/2/2006 4:30:07 PM

if you're talking shit to me, at least learn the difference in 'then' and 'than'

how can you be competent enough to vote for complex politicians if you cant even grasp the most fundamental aspects of the English language

10/2/2006 4:32:46 PM

you say that in a sentence with no punctuation and no capitalization save the word "English." you also misused the apostrophe.

10/2/2006 4:34:16 PM

This is the intarweb, son.

We don't even use capalization and punctuation here.

10/2/2006 4:34:32 PM

Quote :

"how can you be competent enough to vote for complex politicians if you cant even grasp the most fundamental aspects of the English language"

easy. i register to vote. then i vote. IT'S THAT EASY!!!!

10/2/2006 4:36:24 PM