For you part time theologians out there. Perhaps we have reached the point that us, the descendants of those who left Europe or Asia or wherever, looking for better employment, might actually be better off returning there. Would you? Could you?

[Edited on January 7, 2007 at 2:52 AM. Reason : .]

1/7/2007 2:51:56 AM

ntlb

1/7/2007 5:58:45 AM

It would require massive policy blunders in the U.S. for that to be the case, as the wage differential needs to be fairly large to justify abandonning everything you know.

Or, you are a emigrant rebel, IE, you just want to try something different and so you move to Europe. This form of emigration, of course, has nothing to do with wage differentials.

1/7/2007 10:59:53 AM

I'm particularly interested in

1) how this involves theology
2) what reasons you see that would make one better off there

With that information, I would be able to provide a response.

1/7/2007 2:20:33 PM

Sorry, I believe I meant the word "theorists" when I made this thread. But the rest remains the same. Our ancestors left our home countries too seek better economic and social conditions and now it seems that many of those countries have surpassed the US in these indicators. Many countries have much better vacation times (30 days vs. 10 days in US), shorter work weeks (28-35 vs. 40+), affordable healthcare for all (1/4 of Americans uninsured), fairer wages, better school systems and achievement, a stronger and more stable currency, more accountable and representative political systems, better environmental quality and regulation, significantly less violent and property crime, more sustainable resource consumption practices, ect.

Assuming that you could overcome language barriers (many people speak English in Europe anyway) would this ever be an attractive option for you? I wouldn't put past the realm of possibility for myself personally. Moving to Europe probably wouldn't be much different than moving to California, I don't know anyone there either.

[Edited on January 7, 2007 at 5:01 PM. Reason : .]

1/7/2007 5:01:29 PM

I studied abroad in Ireland. There, you came out spending about the same amount on living expenses than you do here in NC. Most people I knew that were natives living in apartments (students) had the same complaints and praises about the conditions as we do. In Dublin, it's a lot like living in Boston. Groceries were cheaper, however, and anyone can find a job. The economy has grown so fast that they're relying heavily on E. European immigrants to fill vacancies in low-wage jobs. Groceries are cheap, rent is similar, beer is more expensive, public transit is great and i never needed a car to go anywhere, and i went everywhere.

I'd have no problem living there. As for other countries, I can't really judge, haven't lived there.

1/7/2007 5:37:40 PM

Quote :

"Many countries have much better vacation times (30 days vs. 10 days in US), shorter work weeks (28-35 vs. 40+), affordable healthcare for all (1/4 of Americans uninsured), fairer wages, better school systems and achievement, a stronger and more stable currency, more accountable and representative political systems, better environmental quality and regulation, significantly less violent and property crime, more sustainable resource consumption practices, ect. "

Spoken like a true socialist. Try talking to some of the Europeans and Asians who moved here and you might get a different picture.

Quote :

"fairer wages"

The wages in Europe are only fairer if you're lazy and/or an idiot.

1/7/2007 6:11:50 PM

"Many countries have much better vacation times (30 days vs. 10 days in US), shorter work weeks (28-35 vs. 40+),"
That is an issue between you and your employer. If you want to work fewer hours and have more vacation then find an employer that offers it. The rest of us would rather have the higher salary.

"affordable healthcare for all (1/4 of Americans uninsured),"
True enough, there is no excuse for America's system. At the same time, there is also no excuse for the problem indemic in European healthcare systems.

"fairer wages"
Sure, everyone earns about the same. They did this by giving 1/4th of the people higher wages and the remaining 3/4th of society got lower wages, I wouldn't call that fairer.

"better school systems and achievement,"
True enough. If only America would similarly privatise its education system then we too could have those better schools.

"a stronger and more stable currency,"
At the moment, things change over-time.

"more accountable and representative political systems,"
Goes without saying. If only we would devolve the whole governmental aparatus back to the states then we too could have an accountable and responsive system.

"better environmental quality and regulation,"
Depends on the topic you choose. Air Quality ratings are invariably worse in Europe than in America due to the popularity of diesel engines.

"significantly less violent and property crime,"
Not true, France alone has more vehicular vandalism than the whole of North America.

"more sustainable resource consumption practices, ect."
Free-Market capitalism is equally prominent in both regions, so sustainability is not in question.

Quote :

"Spoken like a true socialist"

More like European Nationalist. Europe is no more Socialist than America. Both utilize free-market capitalism to allocate resources and production practices.

[Edited on January 7, 2007 at 7:35 PM. Reason : .,.]

1/7/2007 7:31:34 PM

Would I return to Europe, specifically the UK? Hell no!

1/7/2007 8:10:10 PM

I could see myself living in Australia or New Zealand, but probably not Europe

1/7/2007 11:54:30 PM

Me and a friend in HS made a pact to retire to Belize eventually and be kings.

1/8/2007 12:09:28 AM

i wouldn't mind living in sweden permanently, if i had to.

1/8/2007 1:13:40 AM

its doubtful, but I could see myself doing it.

^^^^^please find source material that states the popularity of the diesel engine makes their air worse than ours. Their diesel fuel is much more refined, with lower sulfur content, enabling more advanced emissions controls on their engines.

1/9/2007 1:55:05 PM

True, but Americans do not drive diesel cars, so their diesel being cleaner is irrelevant (although American regulations were just changed requiring our diesel to be even cleaner than Europe's).

For technical reasons a diesel engine will NEVER be cleaner than a gasoline engine. That is why although diesel engines are more efficient they are not used in America: they cannot pass our stringent emissions requirements. Even after we make our diesel cleaner (lower sulphur content) than European diesel they will still not be able to meet our emissions requirements without the addition of complex and expensive pollution control technology that was only developed in the last 10 years.

We could eliminate almost half America's oil imports if we switched our passenger fleet to diesel as Europe has done, but before now the technology did not exist, so it would have required writing exceptions into the clean-air act as was done for America's truck fleet.

1/9/2007 2:40:49 PM

Quote :

"LoneSnark: That is an issue between you and your employer. If you want to work fewer hours and have more vacation then find an employer that offers it. The rest of us would rather have the higher salary."

???

The guy was just listing something he found desirable about Europe that we really don't have here.

So, when you tell him to "find an employer that offers it," you're pretty much telling him to move to Europe because the employers that offer it are in Europe. But, oh wait, that's what the thread's about!

[Edited on January 9, 2007 at 3:16 PM. Reason : sss]

1/9/2007 3:15:55 PM

Return to where? I'm Hmong (aka... Miao, Meo, Mong). They is no such thing as Hmongland.

The Hmong Timeline
From China ... http://www.youtube.com/?v=clGzzseGVrM

Through Laos (S.E. Asia) ... http://www.youtube.com/?v=oXxdQkqNDgU

And today http://www.youtube.com/?v=U7hrZw5ytfs

Just a quick glimpse at my cultural history. Read here for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people

1/9/2007 3:19:51 PM

1/9/2007 3:36:20 PM

There's no better time than now to return to Ireland, brothers and sisters!

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

1/9/2007 10:12:11 PM

ive only heard great things about Ireland.

I might go back and rejoin my long lost family.

Montreal is closer tho.

1/9/2007 10:48:47 PM

My parents emigrated from S. Korea, and I have no intention of returning to live there permanently.

Vacation times may be longer, but social and corporate pressure ensures its rarely fully utilized. Workweeks run into the 60+ hour range. White collar wages are equivalent to the United States, but a cost of living that rival New York City or San Fransisco ensures that overall standard of living is lower.

School achievement is in some ways better than the US, but the competition is so fierce that kids are leaving home before dawn and returning 10pm+ in a regiment of school, tutors, and "cram schools". Some higher level administrative jobs require that you not only come out of the top colleges in your nation and the World but also from the right high schools.

As you can imagine, class lines are much stronger in Korea. Any hopes of moving up is much more difficult (though going down the ladder is relatively easy).

A strong currency is not necessarily a blessing when you're an export-oriented country; if anything, it only disrupts your economy as your exports become less and less competitive.

Crime is lower, but this is in part due to harsher prison sentences and a stronger stigma of shame. Capital punishment is still strongly supported by the public and in some extreme cases, used for crimes such as drug dealing (which is considered murder).

Korea is pretty good about sustainable resource consumption but that's because they have little resources to begin with. Ethnic food is cheap, but everything else is insanely expensive. Housing prices are astronomical, utility costs through the roof. Not surprising given that you'd be living with 44 million other people in a country that's 70% mountains and the size of Indiana.

The president of the country is an idiot with the 9% approval rating to show for it. Oh, and you've got a crazy, poofy haired dictator with enough artillery and chemical weapons aimed at Seoul to turn the city of 14 million into a sea of fire in just under five minutes.

The US is paradise in comparison.

[Edited on January 10, 2007 at 5:56 PM. Reason : .]

1/10/2007 5:55:33 PM