http://youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg

This isn't a news article, rather a small "powerpoint" slide show put together by some random person on the internets.

I offer it only because after viewing it I felt it was a decent production and that I agreed with a lot of it. Please pay particular attention to the references to the founding of the country and also please post any evidence contradicting the propositions made in this video ESPECIALLY regarding the founding of this country.

3/10/2007 1:47:21 AM

That was lame.

I hate religion as much as the next guy, but atheists are FAR from being persecuted. Usually, the non-religious side wins out on the legal stage, because of separation of church and state guidelines.

3/10/2007 1:53:58 AM

as an agnostic, i find it hard to care what the atheists are doing.








but maybe I'll try ... tomorrow.



[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 2:42 AM. Reason : ]

3/10/2007 2:41:30 AM

3/10/2007 7:45:14 AM

well, as something of an atheist myself, I'll tell you flat out why. Because I don't want there to be religion anywhere at all. Ever again. I won't force people to stop believing, and I don't want laws against it, and I want people to be able to make their own decisions - but I'll do what I can to make them understand that their beliefs are incorrect and, in many cases, harmful.

3/10/2007 9:02:49 AM

least trusted minority. that really amazes me and pisses me off

3/10/2007 10:35:04 AM

^^ so you're an evangelical atheist...

That makes you just as bad as an evangelical christian.

3/10/2007 10:47:36 AM

Here is the discussion panel following up on the video I already posted.

Its basically 3 people who agree atheists are bad, but only 2 of them think they need to “shut up” whereas the third guy thinks they should be extended the freedom of speech b/c this country lets other stupid people say stupid things too.

Interestingly though one of the women thinks based off of a different source than Paula is using, that there are a whole lot more atheists in this country.

3/10/2007 10:49:04 AM

Quote :

"well, as something of an atheist myself, I'll tell you flat out why. Because I don't want there to be religion anywhere at all. Ever again. I won't force people to stop believing, and I don't want laws against it, and I want people to be able to make their own decisions - but I'll do what I can to make them understand that their beliefs are incorrect and, in many cases, harmful."

Weren't you, at one time on this board, a Christian, then something of a Christian? And now you are something of an athiest? Dang, George, you really don't know what you believe, but you want "to make them understand that their beliefs are incorrect and, in many cases, harmful"?

How can you, who have no idea what you yourself believe, try and convince someone else that what they believe is incorrect? You know what that's called? Lack of credibility.

Quote :

"That makes you just as bad as an evangelical christian."

At least an evangelical Christian knows what he/she believes.

[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 10:54 AM. Reason : editing]

3/10/2007 10:53:42 AM

^ yeah, he/she believes in annoying the shit out of everyone around them.

3/10/2007 10:57:52 AM

I was debating over whether to post this blob of text, but kdawgs post pushed me in that direction.

Quote :

" Weren't you, at one time on this board, a Christian, then something of a Christian? And now you are something of an athiest? Dang, George, you really don't know what you believe"

The 2nd bolded part about how very few people grow up as atheists makes it impossible for anyone not to have experienced a loss of belief.

Anyways, just to throw the traditional the standard reasons for atheism out there, here goes:

Reasons for atheism
Atheists assert various reasons for their position, including a lack of empirical evidence for deities, or the conviction that the non-existence of deities (in general or particular) is better supported rationally.


Scientific and historical reasons

American Atheists represents atheism with an atom, symbolizing the importance of science to many atheists. Science is based on the observation that the universe is governed by natural laws that can be discerned through repeatable experiments. Science serves as a reliable, rational basis for predictions and engineering (cf. faith and rationality, science and religion). Like scientists, scientific skeptics use critical thinking (cf. the true-believer syndrome) to decide claims, and do not base claims on faith or other unfalsifiable categories. Some philosophers and academics, such as philosopher Jurgen Habermas, adhere to "methodological atheism", a more specific form of science's methodological naturalism, to indicate that whatever their personal beliefs, they do not include theistic presuppositions in their methods for learning about or explaining the world.[98]

Most theistic religions teach that mankind and the universe were created by one or more deities and that this deity continues to act in the universe. Many people—theists and atheists alike—feel that this view conflicts with the discoveries of modern science (especially in cosmology, astronomy, biology and quantum physics). Many believers of the validity of science, seeing such a contradiction, do not believe in the existence of a deity or deities actively involved in the universe.

Science presents a vastly different view of humankind's place in the universe from theistic religions. Scientific progress has continually eroded the basis for religion. Historically, religions have involved supernatural entities and forces linked to unexplained physical phenomena. In ancient Greece, for instance, Helios was the god of the sun, Zeus the god of thunder, and Poseidon the god of earthquakes and the sea. In the absence of a credible scientific theory explaining phenomena, people attributed them to supernatural forces. Science has since eliminated the need for appealing to supernatural explanations. The idea that the role of deities is to fill in the remaining "gaps" in scientific understanding has come to be known as the God of the gaps.[99]

Anthropologists consider religions to be social constructs (see development of religion) that should be analyzed with an unbiased, historical viewpoint. Atheists often argue that nearly all cultures have their own creation myths and gods, and there is no apparent reason to believe that a certain god (e.g., Yahweh) has a special status above gods otherwise not believed to be real (e.g., Zeus), or that one culture's god is more correct than another's. In the same way, all cultures have different, and often incompatible, religious beliefs, none any more likely to be true than another, making the selection of a single specific religion seemingly arbitrary.[100]

However, when theological claims move from the specific and observable to the general and metaphysical, atheistic objections tend to shift from the scientific to the philosophical:

"Within the framework of scientific rationalism one arrives at the belief in the nonexistence of God, not because of certain knowledge, but because of a sliding scale of methods. At one extreme, we can confidently rebut the personal Gods of creationists on firm empirical grounds: science is sufficient to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there never was a worldwide flood and that the evolutionary sequence of the Cosmos does not follow either of the two versions of Genesis. The more we move toward a deistic and fuzzily defined God, however, the more scientific rationalism reaches into its toolbox and shifts from empirical science to logical philosophy informed by science. Ultimately, the most convincing arguments against a deistic God are Hume's dictum and Occam's razor. These are philosophical arguments, but they also constitute the bedrock of all of science, and cannot therefore be dismissed as non-scientific. The reason we put our trust in these two principles is because their application in the empirical sciences has led to such spectacular successes throughout the last three centuries."[101]

3/10/2007 11:01:49 AM

Philosophical and logical reasons
Many atheists will point out that in philosophy and science, the default position on any matter is a lack of belief. If reliable evidence or sound arguments are not presented in support of a belief, then the "burden of proof" remains upon believers, not nonbelievers, to justify their view.[102][103] Consequently, many atheists assert that they are not theists simply because they remain unconvinced by theistic arguments and evidence. As such, many atheists have argued against the most famous proposed proofs of God's existence, including the ontological, cosmological, and teleological arguments.[104]

Other atheists base their position on a more active logical analysis, and subsequent rejection, of theistic claims. The arguments against the existence of God aim at showing that the traditional Judeo-Christian conception of God either is inherently meaningless, is internally inconsistent, or contradicts known scientific or historical facts, and that therefore a god thus described does not exist.

The most common of these arguments is the problem of evil, which Christian apologist William Lane Craig has called "atheism's killer argument."[105] The argument is that the presence of evil in the world disproves the existence of any god that is simultaneously benevolent and omnipotent, because any benevolent god would want to eliminate evil, and any omnipotent god would be able to do so. Theists commonly respond by invoking free will to justify evil (cf. argument from free will), but this leaves unresolved the related argument from nonbelief, also known as the argument from divine hiddenness, which states that if an omnipotent God existed and wanted to be believed in by all, it would prove its existence to all because it would invariably be able to do so. Since there are unbelievers, either there is no omnipotent God or God does not want to be believed in.

Another such argument is theological noncognitivism, which holds that religious language, and specifically words like God, is not cognitively meaningful. This argument was popular in the early 20th century among logical positivists such as Rudolph Carnap and A.J. Ayer, who held that talk of deities is literally nonsense.[106] Such arguments have since fallen into disfavor among philosophers, but continue to see use among ignostics, who view the question of whether deities exist as meaningless or unanswerable, and apatheists, who view it as entirely irrelevant. Similarly, the transcendental argument for the non-existence of God (TANG), a reversal of the more well-known theistic argument, argues that logic, science, and morality can only be justified by appealing to a non-theistic worldview.


Personal, social, and ethical reasons
Some atheists have found social, psychological, practical, and other personal reasons for their disbelief. Some believe that it is more conducive to living well, or that it is more ethical and has more utility than theism. Such atheists may hold that searching for explanations in natural science is more beneficial than seeking to explain phenomena supernaturally. Some atheists also assert that atheism allows—or perhaps even requires—people to take personal responsibility for their actions. In contrast, they feel that many religions blame bad deeds on extrinsic factors and require threats of punishment and promises of reward to keep a person morally and socially acceptable.

Some atheists dislike the restrictions religious codes of conduct place on their personal freedoms. From their point of view, such morality is subjective and arbitrary. Some atheists even argue that theism can promote immorality. Much violence—e.g., warfare, executions, murders, and terrorism—has been brought about, condoned, or justified by religious beliefs and practices.

In areas dominated by certain Christian denominations, many atheists find it difficult to accept that faith could be more important than good works: While a murderer can go to heaven simply by accepting Jesus in some Christian sects, a farmer in a remote Asian countryside will go to hell for not hearing the "good news". Furthermore, some find Hell to be the epitome of cruel and unusual punishment, making it impossible that a good God would permit such a place's existence.

Just as some people of faith come to their faith based upon perceived spiritual or religious experiences, some atheists base their view on an absence of such an experience (or on explaining such experiences through natural causes). Although they may not foreclose the possibility of a supernatural world, unless they believe through experience that such a world exists, they generally refuse to accept a metaphysical belief system based upon faith.

Some atheists argue that religion's emphasis on "faith" can undermine the desire to continually seek new knowledge and explanations.[107] For example, if it is accepted that God created life, then there is no need to research how life arose. Stephen Hawking noted in his book "A Brief History of Time" that the Pope urged him and other scientists not to delve into the origin of the universe because that area belonged to God.

Additionally, some atheists grow up in environments where atheism is relatively common, just as people who grow up in a predominantly Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Christian cultures tend to adopt the prevalent religion there. However, because of the relative uncommonness of atheism, a majority of atheists were not brought up in atheist households or communities.

Osiris-Dionysus
The term Osiris-Dionysus is used by some historians of religion to refer to a group of deities worshipped around the Mediterranean in the centuries prior to the birth of Jesus. It has been argued that these deities were closely related and shared many characteristics, most notably being male, partly-human, born of virgins, life-death-rebirth deities and other similar characteristics.
-wiki

3/10/2007 11:02:25 AM

Bad video. 80% of it is whining about the small stuff. When we atheists are asked why we care about religion, we need to respond with the fundamentals of how it affects our life. That we are widely considered to be depraved. That laws and common morality are based in fantasy. That billions of people are teaching, living, and enforcing terrible lies that have real effects on our lives.

3/10/2007 11:15:21 AM

agreed. hell im agnostic and im wary to tell people just cuz they directly associate that with atheism. more hastle than its worth.

3/10/2007 11:48:55 AM

^speaking of association

http://ncst.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204609276

Quote :

"Name: Atheist, Agnostic, and Non-Religious Size: 6,131 members Type: Organizations - Community Organizations New: 62 More Members, 31 Board Topics, 501 Wall Posts Updated: News"

3/10/2007 12:14:38 PM

Actually, I missed one point in my little statement up there. I also don't get into my lack of religion or the religion of others until they bring it up first - so I'm not evangelical, I just don't keep my mouth shut once someone's brought their faith up to me.

And yeah I was somewhat of a christian - like 6 or 7 years ago. I know exactly what I believe, although I'd say that I live by more of a set of ideas and facts than beliefs - my beliefs have just changed and evolved over time, which I think everyone's beliefs should do.

In fact, one of the things I dislike so much about religion is how much every religion forces itself to never change. I think kdawg's inability to understand that my beliefs could change and his portrayal of that change as my "Not knowing what I believe" is proof of that problem. My beliefs changed from my freshman year in college to almost 4 years after I graduated, and that's not understandable?

Change always happens anyway, but it usually is forced or happens far too slowly. People allow their beliefs to stagnate and don't update them with the reality of what humanity has learned since those beliefs first came into being.

It was ok, for instance, to think the earth was 6,000 years old, until we proved that wasn't true. Still believing it is pointless, because it's been unequivocally disproven. I believed in christianity until it became obvious to me that those beliefs, or at least the supernatural portions, were completely impossible and without any historical merit. I had been taught as though all of these things were true, not that they were beliefs, and that's the case with most religions. You're taught from the time you can understand, at least if you're a Chrisitan, that there's a man in the sky watching you, that he came to earth in human form, that he raised the dead and healed the sick and was born of a virgin and died and rose again... but you're not told that there's a chance these things are incorrect.

Then, as I moved away from them, I began to realize that not only were they untrue, but continuing to believe in them and other such supernatural mythologies was harmful to human development and caused wars and social tension. It just doesn't make a bit of sense to me.


[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 1:36 PM. Reason : .]

3/10/2007 1:22:48 PM

Quote :

" http://youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg "

"Flag as Inappropriate"

and call Homeland Security. This is terrorist propaganda of the most heinous sort.



[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 3:30 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2007 3:30:33 PM

i hope you're joking

3/10/2007 4:32:19 PM

yeeeeeeah

freedom of religion is not the freedom to lead a class in public school in prayer. But don't get me wrong.

I hate both atheists and Christians (of the severity seen in the videos above). Religion is heritage. The sooner that atheists can recognize that there is cultural value to religion and the sooner the Christians can acknowledge that religion isn't a guide for life the better.

And don't give me that Christian shit that religion is a guide for life, the bible says crap about sacrificing your first born and shit. You only say Christianity gives you your guiding points for life when it fits your convenience. One way or the other, clear, rational thought must be used to ascribe to certain parts of the bible. THAT IS NOT FAITH. Faith kills people.

And anyone who calls themself an atheist is an asshole. That's why they're "persecuted." Honestly, this isn't about who you are, this is something you decided, to publicly proclaim that you think other people are wrong in their beliefs. And on top of that, religion has a big part in history and the building of society as we know it, get over it. Anyone with decency who is going down that track calls themselves agonistic (simply recognizing themself as the lazy fuck they are) or finds something else to do with their time that's more productive than this anti-belief system.

[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 5:25 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2007 5:23:58 PM

nazism had a big part in building what germany is today. that doesn't mean that tradition is a GOOD thing. and no, I'm not comparing christianity to nazism, but the logic is the same. just because something helped your society be what it is today (and would you really argue that today's society is GOOD?) doesn't make it good in its own right.

society may or may not have come into being without religion - I'd say society is more about grouping together as humans to feel more together, and that's human nature. it's about more easy access to food, other people, and sex.

also, since when is something you decided not part of who you are? not only that, but how did I DECIDE to not believe in god? I didn't DECIDE not to believe in god, I just don't. Your arguments are silly.

and I agree with you about the label "atheist," that's why I call myself "somewhat of an atheist" or "sort of an atheist," etc. Atheists say they KNOW there's no god, just as theists say they know there IS a god. I don't KNOW there's not a god, I just don't think there is. I'm not exactly an agnostic either, however, because agnostics believe that god can neither be disproven or proven. God can very easily be proven, though not as easily disproven, but either way, I'm neither atheist nor agnostic.

[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 6:33 PM. Reason : ,]

3/10/2007 6:32:14 PM

^^Wow, that's stupid. I should recognize the cultural value of religion? Culture has no value to me. Falsehoods don't get more important over time.

3/10/2007 6:53:28 PM

Quote :

"nazism had a big part in building what germany is today. that doesn't mean that tradition is a GOOD thing. and no, I'm not comparing christianity to nazism, but the logic is the same. just because something helped your society be what it is today (and would you really argue that today's society is GOOD?) doesn't make it good in its own right."

I agree. Nothing is completely good. I'm with you here, so let me expand a little bit.

Heritage is something that can be celebrated, it can bring communities and make people feel good about who they are. Yes, it has to be taken with a grain of salt as per your example, especially in an environment like our country. I see the American community that we strive for as a place where you say "yeah I'm Christian, what are you," "I'm Buddhist" "oh cool cool."

Intolerant people clearly won't mesh well into this. But atheists also need to SOMEHOW recognize the importance of religion as a cultural institution or even just because of the shear reason that everyone else is into it. Otherwise the entire community thing just isn't going to work.

...is sort of my point.

And don't tell me that we don't need community cohesion in any way, b/c someday you're gona have kids and well... the existence of public school is example of how it takes a village to raise them.

Quote :

"society may or may not have come into being without religion - I'd say society is more about grouping together as humans to feel more together, and that's human nature. it's about more easy access to food, other people, and sex."

right right, I follow your understatement here. But we study history and culture and we try to better our society. Is this despotic view what you want to see taught in schools?

Quote :

"also, since when is something you decided not part of who you are? not only that, but how did I DECIDE to not believe in god? I didn't DECIDE not to believe in god, I just don't. Your arguments are silly."

Let me say that in the first video above I do think they were being discriminated against and that town really does need some of it's people smacked around in court. But I think those kind of cases are rare. Most atheists are more like trolls IRL than what you're talking about here.

And as an occasionally self-proclaimed troll on TWW, I take your statement as the highest compliment.

Quote :

"and I agree with you about the label "atheist," that's why I call myself "somewhat of an atheist" or "sort of an atheist," etc. Atheists say they KNOW there's no god, just as theists say they know there IS a god. I don't KNOW there's not a god, I just don't think there is. I'm not exactly an agnostic either, however, because agnostics believe that god can neither be disproven or proven. God can very easily be proven, though not as easily disproven, but either way, I'm neither atheist nor agnostic."

I'm totally down with this. If
atheism = religion
to you, then you've got problems. And yeah, it does for many people (I'm not saying the equation is wrong), but that's not you, so onwards...

-------------

Quote :

"Culture has no value to me."

I don't know how you could possibly have a dailouge with anyone here starting from this point. But feel free to read my comments on DirtyGreek's post.

3/10/2007 8:09:37 PM

Quote :

"this isn't about who you are, this is something you decided, to publicly proclaim that you think other people are wrong in their beliefs."

as opposed to all of the other religions that claim that everyone else is wrong and going to their version of hell.

Quote :

"(simply recognizing themself as the lazy fuck they are)"

talk about a troll. theres nothing lazy about recognizing our inability to know for sure. how are you going to say that the anti-belief system is a waste of time and then say agnostics are lazy?

3/10/2007 8:20:44 PM

Quote :

"as opposed to all of the other religions that claim that everyone else is wrong and going to their version of hell."

Ok, out of all of us, MANY, nay, MOST grew up in a Christian household. Some grew up in a household that was some other religion. Very few grew up in an atheist household. By that measure, yes, atheists choose their way and others are Christian, Jew, whatever because they were brought up that way.

Not to say that's true 100% of the time, and not to say that it invalidates other atheist-rights arguments, but I'm saying that choosing to be an atheist is more of a conscious choice than being Christian for the vast majority of cases.

Quote :

"talk about a troll. theres nothing lazy about recognizing our inability to know for sure. how are you going to say that the anti-belief system is a waste of time and then say agnostics are lazy?"

DUDE, agnostics say agnostics are lazy.

[troll]Sorry my generalization didn't fit you. You're doing an upstanding job of increasing awareness on the internetz.[/troll]

3/10/2007 8:36:44 PM

Quote :

"I don't know how you could possibly have a dailouge with anyone here starting from this point."

Culture defines values to be whatever society or tradition says to be good, not by what has actual good consequences to anyone. You want your values to be defined by the whims of others, fine. I don't.

3/10/2007 8:38:35 PM

That's great, only problem is that you don't rule the world.

3/10/2007 8:51:56 PM

Quote :

"Not to say that's true 100% of the time, and not to say that it invalidates other atheist-rights arguments, but I'm saying that choosing to be an atheist is more of a conscious choice than being Christian for the vast majority of cases. "

Quote :

"And anyone who calls themself an atheist is an asshole."

I stopped believing in santa clause when I realized the evidence didn't stack up. It wasn't just a choice to be weird or to make myself stand out or as a means of not valuing the significance santa clause has had on our holidays/culture. My point being a "choice" not to believe something supernatural isn't necessarily much of a choice at all, or atleast not a mean spirited choice.

3/10/2007 10:36:58 PM

Quote :

"DUDE, agnostics say agnostics are lazy."

You're either trolling or have a fundamental lack of understanding as to what agnosticism is.

3/10/2007 11:10:08 PM

he's not being very nice to any group. atheists are a bunch of assholes who choose to go against the grain and tell everyone how stupid they are. christians were brainwashed as children and cant choose for themselves.

[Edited on March 10, 2007 at 11:15 PM. Reason : the agnostics who say they are lazy are the ones that dont understand what it is]

3/10/2007 11:15:13 PM

thanks.

and yes my agnostic friends do fit in that category.

I can see where you're coming from. When confronted with disbelief in the Christian God, certainly there is the agnostic route, atheist route, boldface lying, and possibly some others. I only consider the lying option to be 100% apathetic.

3/10/2007 11:24:48 PM

The Agnostic's "Creed"

Quote :

"Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle. ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. That I take to be the agnostic faith, which if a man keep whole and undefiled, he shall not be ashamed to look the universe in the face, whatever the future may have in store for him. -- Thomas H. Huxley, "Agnosticism", 1889 "

signed.






[Edited on March 11, 2007 at 2:45 AM. Reason : ]

3/11/2007 2:43:53 AM

While nobody can prove that God exists (short of God making an appearance), nobody can prove that God doesn't exist either. So why argue about it? Especially when we will all find out the answer in due time anyway.

3/11/2007 4:15:41 PM

Quote :

"So why argue about it? "

because we CAN

durr

3/11/2007 8:40:00 PM

Quote :

"nobody can prove that God doesn't exist either. So why argue about it? "

Isn't it crazy that [rational] Christians don't disagree with this statement? It's said over and over in church that there IS no proof that God exists and you just have to believe in him by faith.

So the founding belief (not so much a belief as a universally acceptable statement) of your agnostic creed is something the religious have too.

This is why I have a problem with being an agnostic. IT'S NOTHING SPECIAL AT ALL. AND I NEED SOMETHING TO FEEL ALL WARM AND SQUISHY ON THE INSIDE


See, was the point of religion not to create that warm and squishy feeling on the inside? Your creed has failed in that respect, it doesn't make anyone feel anything, it's just clear logic of "we can say this, we can say this." And the atheism just goes the other direction, it makes you feel all cold and alone on the inside. You know, it you wanted to feel cold and alone then yeah, it's perfect for you.

But this goes for agnostic and atheist:
you have no traditions
you have no fun stories to tell
you have no organization or comradery among your members except in extremely rare cases

I just want to ask: Do these points in any way AT ALL influence your decisions to "be" agnostic (atheists can answer too)?

3/11/2007 11:17:11 PM

I think mrfrog makes some great points here.

Quote :

"And don't tell me that we don't need community cohesion in any way, b/c someday you're gona have kids and well... the existence of public school is example of how it takes a village to raise them."

while I hope to never have children - there are too many now that don't have parents and I'm greedy; I want my own life - but of course I agree we need community cohesion. I'd never suggest otherwise.

Quote :

"right right, I follow your understatement here. But we study history and culture and we try to better our society. Is this despotic view what you want to see taught in schools?"

I don't think "Despotic" is fair, and yeah I agree it could be taught more... nimbly... than the way I put it.

Quote :

"And as an occasionally self-proclaimed troll on TWW, I take your statement as the highest compliment."

I take your acceptance as a compliment. [no homo]

Quote :

"If atheism = religion to you, then you've got problems. And yeah, it does for many people"

ugh. I know. That's just like the many great christians out there who get a bad name because of annoying or mean ones. I like to think I'll be given as fair a shake from believers as I give them. My cousin, a very religious but very sane and realistic person otherwise (I say otherwise because I still think believing in rising from the dead, etc, is weird) is one of my most respected friends and debate partners. The guy's great, and I completely respect his beliefs because he's examined them, agrees that they're possibly incorrect, and admits that he takes them on faith. He doesn't state them as fact, doesn't try to use skewed science to back them up, and doesn't look down on those who disagree. He's the best type of believer, in my opinion. OH, so the point I'm trying to make here is, I don't dislike christians, I dislike christianity. I'll never look down on a person for their beliefs, but I may look down on people who don't examine their beliefs and just accept what their elders tell them. I see that as intellectual weakness.

Quote :

""Culture has no value to me." I don't know how you could possibly have a dailouge with anyone here starting from this point. "

VERY agreed here. Culture is what makes us human.

Quote :

" Culture defines values to be whatever society or tradition says to be good, not by what has actual good consequences to anyone. You want your values to be defined by the whims of others, fine. I don't."

That's not really true at all. "Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving." In general, culture just means stored and passed-down knowledge and practices. It doesn't have to mean defining good and bad based on tradition, although obviously, that does happen. I think you're looking at one way culture has been used and thinking badly about it because of that, but without culture, we wouldn't be human.

What anthropologists define as culture has been witnessed in a few primate species besides ours, including orang-utans, chimps, and gorillas, some say dolphins, and that's practically all. However, ours is a more cultural brain, and therefore, culture infiltrates our minds more. That fact has been misused, quite a bit actually, but don't throw the baby away with the bath water. Our brains are hard-wired for culture. Our brains became human brains because of culture, and wouldn't have become what they are without it. In fact, I'd say that if you literally see culture as negative, you may have some crossed wires up there. I really don't mean that as an insult, but I'm completely serious.

Without culture, there would be no art, no science, no music... I doubt you think that's a good thing.

Quote :

"And the atheism just goes the other direction, it makes you feel all cold and alone on the inside. You know, it you wanted to feel cold and alone then yeah, it's perfect for you. "

This, as many atheists will tell you, is completely untrue. When I feel the most atheistic is when I've witnessed or read about or thought deeply about the amazing things in the universe we still can't explain and feel that burst of adrenaline and brain chemicals and warmth rushing through me. When I get the warm, fuzzy feeling most people associate with god, I associate it with the beauty of a universe made of chaos with so much unexplained that it makes our minds whirl. That which makes some think there MUST be a god is that which usually confirms to me that a god doesn't NEED to exist. And it's really a beautiful experience. No joke.

[Edited on March 11, 2007 at 11:35 PM. Reason : .]

3/11/2007 11:32:34 PM

Okay, I get a warm and fuzzy feeling on the inside when I think about a number of things, and I'm gona try to ask for more detail on yours.

I think I get the feeling you're talking about there when I read Stephen Hawking or Popular Science, you know, just the creativity of our minds applied to the edge of the known.

But when I think of a "warm fuzzy" argument for atheism, I'm thinking more of a "coming out of the closet" feeling. Like, if you spend your ENTIRE time at church just thinking to yourself "this is complete crap, I want to leave now," then it's more of a self-empowerment thing to be able to say "I don't believe in this." Which kind of stems from the faith thing. Faith is something you look inside yourself for, maybe it's there and maybe it's not. If you find that it's not then sure, you could be much happier pursuing alternative creeds.

--
My question: How is your "deep thinking" exclusive to being non-theist? I've heard strong Christians who've studied physics discuss how the knowledge they gain reinforces their faith instead of wearing it away.

And then is that thinking really connected to your separation from Christianity (just guessing)? I'm typically of the opinion that science has gotten as far it can in disproving Christianity. We can find alternate dimensions or the unified field theory and it wouldn't require a repositioning of the church, while at the same time many churches NEED to be repositioned on issues that science has ruled over for hundreds of years (note: evolution).

I see these as sort of petty fights that won't change anything now that we've gotten this far. Is the science over religion thing I talked about here why you 'quit' or was your motivation elsewhere?

3/12/2007 12:09:08 AM

No, I used to get warm fuzzies when I was younger and believed in god, and when I stopped believing in him, I got the same (actually sometimes better, though that could just be because of the time that's passed) feeling from the things I described earlier.

"I'm thinking more of a "coming out of the closet" feeling." absolutely not, in my case. But that's partially because I didn't screw around in church once I stopped believing.

Quote :

"Faith is something you look inside yourself for, maybe it's there and maybe it's not "

It's so interesting how differently people think. For me, faith is something you look outside yourself for. You're told something by someone else, and you begin to believe it with no proof. I don't know where that came from inside you, really.

My deep thinking isn't exclusive to being non-theist at all. I hope I didn't make it sound that way. I'm saying when I contemplate those things, I don't think of god anymore. It doesn't come up, unless the things I'm thinking about are about religion. Certainly those who are deeply faithful often associate what their faiths teach them to the amazing things they learn. Case in point: newton's clock-maker god vs. falwell's science-hating vengeful god vs. hawking's or dawkins' lack of god or Francis Collins -- head of the Human Genome Project's god who created the intricacies of dna. Pythagoras used his mathematics to describe his pagan/pantheistic mathematical god... point made.

Quote :

"And then is that thinking really connected to your separation from Christianity"

I'd say it was a snowball effect. I started to think and it made me wonder about my faith, then I began to wonder more and I started to doubt my faith. Then I Researched and discovered the multitude of holes in my faith. Then I realized that if there are holes in my faith, god can't be all powerful or all knowing. Then I realized that god would have to be that to have created a universe like this, so I figured he probably didn't exist. Then I read about how the actual story of yahweh came about in books like Karen Armstrong's books, like history of god. Then I realized that if I combined the lack of a reason for god (since he's actually not infallible, as pointed out above) and the story of how belief in him specifically came about through the Armstrong books, I had my answer.

[Edited on March 12, 2007 at 12:21 AM. Reason : n]

3/12/2007 12:20:51 AM

Quote :

" But this goes for agnostic and atheist: you have no traditions you have no fun stories to tell you have no organization or comradery among your members except in extremely rare cases I just want to ask: Do these points in any way AT ALL influence your decisions to "be" agnostic (atheists can answer too)?"

No, but atheist and agnostics can celebrate all the traditions and stories and stuff that religious people do, but for different reasons, and with less burden of ceremony (and more focus of appreciating family/friends/life).

Quote :

"This is why I have a problem with being an agnostic. IT'S NOTHING SPECIAL AT ALL. AND I NEED SOMETHING TO FEEL ALL WARM AND SQUISHY ON THE INSIDE "

Agnosticism IS special because what you are describing is the typical christian, who is "socially" a Christian, and not deep down inside. This person, even though they might not really believe all the stuff about a Christian god, is not an agnostic because they will vote based on religion (because they feel compelled to in order to maintain the illusion) and otherwise say and do Christian things. An agnostic will not do this, and therefore will have a measurable different impact on society because they are agnostic.

3/12/2007 12:21:26 AM

you know, another important point is that the only difference between my beliefs and those of a christian is a matter of scale. allow me to explain:

unless you believe that the bible is the infallible, correct, and perfect word of god in every instance and to the full degree, you are picking and choosing what you do and do not want to believe. correct? if you say you are sure the bible is infallible, this means that you believe slavery is necessary, women should be stoned for adultery, shellfish is as evil as homosexuality, the earth is flat and covered by a firmament, etc. Most people would say some of these things, though which of these differs based on the person, are metaphor or simply incorrect.

Well, I believe in some of the bible. I believe some of the facts are historical - wars, etc - because we have physical evidence of those events. I just choose not to believe that that jesus rose from the grave, or that the entire earth was flooded, or that a man was born of a virgin, or that the earth was created in 7 days, or that man was made of the earth and eve of his rib... or man and woman made separately, depending on which CHAPTER of genesis you read. or that god exists.

3/12/2007 12:33:38 AM

I'll admit that I don't get what atheists actually think.

Personally, i expand the idea of god to any super-universal intelligence that can be represented by a single or multiple beings that may or may not even be aware of our existence. To say that nothing like that exists for certain doesn't seem right to me, it even seems illogical. To say that something like that may exist, but it has no bearing on me (what I view as agnosticism) seems to be the most logical position.

3/12/2007 12:43:51 AM

Quote :

"That's great, only problem is that you don't rule the world."

But I do rule my own mind. What's your point? I gotta say, I don't know what you're talking about half the time. You sound like you use mushrooms or have ADD.

Quote :

"But this goes for agnostic and atheist: you have no traditions you have no fun stories to tell you have no organization or comradery among your members except in extremely rare cases"

omg thank you so much. One of my core beliefs is that culture and religion are so compelling because people find camaraderie more appealing than truth. That was beautiful, thank you.

Quote :

"VERY agreed here. Culture is what makes us human."

Well that's super. But what if the culture is based in fantasy? What if it screws up people? What if it promotes racism, witch-burning, unproductiveness, etc.? Then what value is it?

Quote :

"That's not really true at all. "Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving." In general, culture just means stored and passed-down knowledge and practices. It doesn't have to mean defining good and bad based on tradition, although obviously, that does happen."

Yes, it does happen, as you mentioned with the words I bolded. And when it does, it's not always a good thing IMO.

Quote :

"Our brains are hard-wired for culture."

Yes, I've noticed. The need people feel to fit in with their families and societies can drive them to believe practically any beliefs of their fellows. That doesn't mean it's good.

Quote :

"I'd say that if you literally see culture as negative, "

Not completely, just the parts where my values and behaviors are supposed to be defined by the whims of others.

Quote :

"you may have some crossed wires up there"

Sometimes I wonder.

[Edited on March 12, 2007 at 3:58 PM. Reason : ]

3/12/2007 3:56:53 PM

I believe that no one know what happens to them after they die or if there is a "higher power (which I guess is more agnostic than atheist).

However, I consider myself to be atheist. The reason why, using an odd example.....

Right now I am in my house. I can not see my backyard. If someone were to come in right now and ask me if I believe that a giant giraffe is in my backyard I would say no. Of course its possible there is one. However, I have no reason to believe there is, no facts, no history etc. to back that up. I don't say to that person well I don't believe or disbelieve that there is a giraffe in my backyard.

The term that is used to describe my belief I think is a "weak-atheist". I think most atheists are like this and not like the ones that try to disprove the existence of god constantly, but I could be wrong about that.

3/13/2007 11:55:24 AM

So, in philosophical terms, you're a weak atheist (with a lack of belief in any gods) rather than a strong atheist (who claims to know there is no god). The majority of atheists I've met are weak atheists. The only reason I've really encountered the term strong atheist is that agnostics (who also often meet the qualification for being a weak atheist) want to differentiate themselves from the term atheist.

3/13/2007 1:33:17 PM

Quote :

"The term that is used to describe my belief I think is a "weak-atheist". I think most atheists are like this and not like the ones that try to disprove the existence of god absolutely, but I could be wrong about that."

I 100% agree with this statement.

Quote :

"Culture defines values to be whatever society or tradition says to be good, not by what has actual good consequences to anyone. You want your values to be defined by the whims of others, fine. I don't."

Here you're saying that the values you choose would be better than society has. That's preposterous, and our values are not defined on the whim of someone, that's why they're societies values. Putting that behind, it doesn't matter if you don't like the culture where you are. You don't rule the world.

Quote :

"omg thank you so much. One of my core beliefs is that culture and religion are so compelling because people find camaraderie more appealing than truth. That was beautiful, thank you."

Science = Search for the truth != Religion

What else are you going to judge a theology by? I can't tell you, that's your personal quest. If you want to know of other things to judge it by, I could tell you my reasoning

I Don't think that we're alone or this universe is all there is to everything. But religiously, I don't need specifics of this 'something else' (which i might be interested in scientifically or whatever), the point is to realize that this world and this 'something else' are good and we should get together to celebrate that. Using God and Jesus (or whatever you may) is a meaningful way to do this, it's gives us a chance to have something that deep in common between many of us.

There's lots of valid ways you could formulate your reasons for religion that include the things I mentioned before. That's what I believe, It's fine to disagree, but I don't see how it's an OMG to you.

Quote :

"Well that's super. But what if the culture is based in fantasy? What if it screws up people? What if it promotes racism, witch-burning, unproductiveness, etc.? Then what value is it?"

Do you not LIVE in our world? Culture is what we eat, hobbies, how we handle work, it's almost everything. People shunning the culture of others is what causes the things you mention there (well, the first two or so). People kill people. I don't agree with blaming culture at all.

Quote :

"It doesn't have to mean defining good and bad based on tradition, although obviously, that does happen." Yes, it does happen, as you mentioned with the words I bolded. And when it does, it's not always a good thing IMO."

I'm finding myself agreeing with this.

Quote :

"Yes, I've noticed. The need people feel to fit in with their families and societies can drive them to believe practically any beliefs of their fellows. That doesn't mean it's good."

Are you in favor of less culture? I don't even know what that would mean.

Quote :

"Not completely, just the parts where my values and behaviors are supposed to be defined by the whims of others."

Response:

Quote :

"You sound like you use mushrooms or have ADD."

3/13/2007 9:49:34 PM

Quote :

"Right now I am in my house. I can not see my backyard. If someone were to come in right now and ask me if I believe that a giant giraffe is in my backyard I would say no. Of course its possible there is one. However, I have no reason to believe there is, no facts, no history etc. to back that up. I don't say to that person well I don't believe or disbelieve that there is a giraffe in my backyard."

Bad example, really, since giraffes aren't normally in backyards. If someone told you there was a dog in your backyard, what then? One might be, and one might not be. Since you have no idea, you're going to jump to the "no dog" conclusion? I think the world could exist with or without God, so I can't dismiss the possibility so easily.

[Edited on March 13, 2007 at 11:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/13/2007 10:51:26 PM

Honestly, if someone told me there was a giraffe in my back yard I'd go out there and look half believing it, because isn't not every day that someone just comes up to you and says "dude! there's a giraffe in your back yard"

3/13/2007 11:17:49 PM

Quote :

"Bad example, really, since giraffes aren't normally in backyards. If someone told you there was a dog in your backyard, what then? One might be, and one might not be. Since you have no idea, you're going to jump to the "no dog" conclusion? I think the world could exist with or without God, so I can't dismiss the possibility so easily."

yeah, but why would you be inclined to believe that a dog just might be in your backyard without even looking? Because dogs sometimes wander around your neighborhood, probably.
But with God, there is no sense of "probably" or "normally". With God, just like the giraffe, you have absolutely no reason to think they he even might be in your backyard.

3/13/2007 11:37:28 PM

If it's a backyard that you can never look into, then there could be goddam dragons back there.

I mean, do we even know that backyard exists, much less that there's something in there?

3/14/2007 1:25:40 AM

Quote :

"But with God, there is no sense of "probably" or "normally". With God, just like the giraffe, you have absolutely no reason to think they he even might be in your backyard."

Sure I could. A ridiculous percentage of people on this Earth think there's a dog or giraffe in my backyard. So why wouldn't it be within the realm of possibility? Or crazy psycho Scientologist aliens? Or any other higher power? There's no reason why something couldn't be there. The only reason you assume something isn't is because you believe it isn't. Likewise, the only reason you'd believe something is there is because you believe it is.

[Edited on March 14, 2007 at 1:38 AM. Reason : .]

3/14/2007 1:36:21 AM

Quote :

"Here you're saying that the values you choose would be better than society has. That's preposterous"

uh... why? Am I incapable of judging value? Is it not possible that some of my values can have better consequences than some of society's values?

Quote :

"our values are not defined on the whim of someone, that's why they're societies values."

Some come from whims, some don't. Fashion does, for example. Not sure what you mean with the last part of your sentence.

Quote :

"it doesn't matter if you don't like the culture where you are. You don't rule the world."

Yeah, still don't know what this is all about.

Quote :

"Science = Search for the truth != Religion"

I was under the impression that people consider their religion to be the ultimate truth, not something they just like because it gives them a "warm and squishy feeling" and stories to tell.

Quote :

"Using God and Jesus (or whatever you may) is a meaningful way to do this, it's gives us a chance to have something that deep in common between many of us. It's fine to disagree, but I don't see how it's an OMG to you."

You don't even seem to care whether it's true or false that gods/supernatural stuff exists. To me, it's a fundamental part in knowing reality! And knowing reality is important in knowing goodness. That's why I find it shocking that you would purposefully gravitate towards an ideology just because of the chance to have something in common with others. (Especially since the same commonality creates an unnecessary identity barrier with other people-holy war anyone?)

Quote :

"Do you not LIVE in our world? Culture is what we eat, hobbies, how we handle work, it's almost everything."

Groan. I'm not concerned about food or hobbies.

Quote :

"People shunning the culture of others is what causes the things you mention there (well, the first two or so). People kill people. I don't agree with blaming culture at all."

What if a person's culture is the cause of him shunning the culture of others and resulting bad things?

Overall, here is an example of what I have against the combination of culture and needing to have something "deep in common" among others: Consider the Germans under the Nazi party. Have you seen videos of the rallies where thousands of people are giving the Hitler salute and shouting "Sieg Heil"? Are they focused on reality or are they being swept up by camaraderie? Camaraderie! Are they concerned with their values or cultural values? Cultural values! Do those values turn out good to them or bad to them? Bad to them! If someone in the crowd were to say, "Wait! These values are not good at all. Racism and socialism are terrible!", would you tell him it's preposterous for him to say that his values are better than society's? Would you tell him it doesn't matter if he doesn't like the culture where he is because he doesn't rule the world? (Whatever that means...) Would you tell him the joys of having traditions and organization? Maybe you would. If he doesn't agree with the crowd and give the salute, he might "feel all cold and alone on the inside."

3/14/2007 1:40:52 AM