DETROIT (Reuters) - With bidding stalled on some of the least desirable residences in Detroit's collapsing housing market, even the fast-talking auctioneer was feeling the stress.

"Folks, the ground underneath the house goes with it. You do know that, right?" he offered.

After selling house after house in the Motor City for less than the $29,000 it costs to buy the average new car, the auctioneer tried a new line: "The lumber in the house is worth more than that!"

As Detroit reels from job losses in the U.S. auto industry, the depressed city has emerged as a boomtown in one area: foreclosed property.

The city, which has lost more than half its population in the past 30 years and struggled with rising crime, failing schools and other social problems, largely missed out on the housing boom that swept much of the country in recent years.

In the most spirited bidding of the day, a sprawling, four-bedroom mansion from Detroit's boom days with an ornate stone entrance fetched just $135,000.

Even with the steep discounts on Detroit-area properties, some buyers handed over their deposits with a wince.

"I'm not sure it's congratulations," said Kirk Neal, a 55-year-old auto body shop worker who bought a ranch in the suburb of Oak Park for $34,000. "My wife is going to kill me."

"Once we've seen the last person leave Michigan, then I think we'll be able to say we've seen the bottom," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070319/ts_nm/usa_subprime_detroit_dc

3/21/2007 8:21:25 AM

damn i should buy something there!

then rent it out for 10 years.

then sell it for $texas.

3/21/2007 8:23:14 AM

So who's the first to leave:

Red Wings, Lions, Tigers, or Pistons?

I vote Lions.

3/21/2007 8:24:52 AM

^they need to get rid of the unions, then they might have a chance. Those sport teams arent the problem.

3/21/2007 9:46:47 AM

I would bet that even without factoring in any labor costs, there would be no where near $29K worth of materials salvageable from a $29K house in Detroit. I don't think we're talking about the mansions in Grosse Pointe here.

Of the major rust belt cities in the upper mid west, Detroit is the one that has resisted trying to reinvent itself as a nicer place. Even Cleveland has made good progress in this regard.

3/21/2007 9:57:00 AM

Curse my faulty sarcasm meter for not knowing how to respond to ^^.

At those prices I might move there. When is RoboCop supposed to emerge? - wanna make sure it's safe for the family.

[Edited on March 21, 2007 at 9:58 AM. Reason : ^^]

3/21/2007 9:57:55 AM

Quote :

"A four-bedroom house near the original Motown recording studio sold for $7,000."

DAMN.

3/21/2007 11:10:11 AM

I've looked and couldn't find a link, but there are quite a few socialists in the Detroit City Council.

3/21/2007 11:25:39 AM

Quote :

"With bidding stalled on some of the least desirable residences in Detroit's collapsing housing market, even the fast-talking auctioneer was feeling the stress. "

i dont think this is localized to only Detroit. You can find dirt cheap housing in bad parts of most cities.

3/21/2007 11:39:32 AM

True enough, but detroits population has dropped by half over the last 30 years, so all of the housing in the bad parts of town is sitting empty except for criminals and drug dealers.

3/21/2007 11:41:39 AM

Holy crap, that is ridiculous. I didn't realize detroit was so fucked over.

3/21/2007 12:20:02 PM

I wonder how the property taxes are. How many years before you pay more in tax then your house is worth. Not long I bet.

There was a place in Durham for like 18k I was thinking about a few years back.

3/21/2007 7:00:13 PM

This just furthers my belief that we should just let Canada have Michigan.

[Edited on March 21, 2007 at 10:51 PM. Reason : also I dont see some New York awakening happening in Detroit.]

3/21/2007 10:51:07 PM

Quote :

"eyedrb: they need to get rid of the unions, then they might have a chance. Those sport teams arent the problem."

OMFG ITS THE UNIONS FAULT

dont be such a fucking simpleton. Seattle, for instance, is heavily unionized. try buying a house in any of the urban neighborhoods here. plenty of other cities are heavily union.

whose alias are you anyhow?

3/21/2007 11:54:15 PM

But Seattle's interstate exchange does not come from unionized industries. And the few that do are no where near as successful as the UAW has been at keeping wages high and productivity low.

Construction unions, if you are right, do nothing more than make the local population poorer, not un-competitive.

3/22/2007 7:36:05 AM

Quote :

"they need to get rid of the unions, then they might have a chance. Those sport teams arent the problem."

It isn't the unions. it was the racist attitudes of the 1950s which caused detroits downfall today.

3/22/2007 7:42:12 AM

Yep the unions helped the big 3 to record profits, outputs, and quality standards. What percentage of Detriot was built around those companies? Isnt detriot named the bagel city?... no.. i believe it might have been MOTOR city. You are right, my mistake. THe unions are the only thing keeping detriot from sliding into the great lakes. My mistake

3/22/2007 8:20:40 AM

Quote :

"^they need to get rid of the unions, then they might have a chance. Those sport teams arent the problem."

Ah yes, the low road to economic development. Instead of keeping companies competitive by innovating new products, lets just force all our workers back into poverty, take away their health care and roll back environmental protections for companies that will eventually hollow themselves out by outsourcing most of their workforce and production.

America's automakers are in trouble because American cars for the most part suck.

3/22/2007 1:54:05 PM

Quote :

"America's automakers are in trouble because American cars for the most part suck."

That is correct.

But now we're back to putting the blame on union labor.

You'd think that government employees would have the worst work ethic in the country, but Union Labor proudly wins that award.

3/22/2007 2:23:03 PM

I love how all the people who have no experience with unions like to blame them for all the worlds ills.

3/22/2007 5:24:31 PM

i have experience with unions...about a dozen different employees at my company over the last 5-10 years moved down to NC from NY/NJ/CT/MA because they lost their jobs because of unions

whats your experience with unions? cause i fucking hate them

3/22/2007 5:27:53 PM

Quote :

"Yep the unions helped the big 3 to record profits, outputs, and quality standards. What percentage of Detriot was built around those companies? Isnt detriot named the bagel city?... no.. i believe it might have been MOTOR city. You are right, my mistake. THe unions are the only thing keeping detriot from sliding into the great lakes. My mistake"

because you are incapable of getting information into your head except for the talking points of the republican party, I'll lay it out for you.

In detroit during the 1950s there was de facto segregation in the communities. Eventually, african americans started to move in. In turn, the whites fearful of these negroes began to move out into the suburbs and created home owners associations to keep blacks out. Eventually, as the whites were replaced by middle income blacks who in turn began to leave because of the increase of lower income blacks coming in and getting houses from the whites who were selling them for cheap and fleeing to the suburbs to get away from the blacks. Middle income blacks then began to sell their homes and more into the subrubs. This trend increased accross the city until you get what you got now, wholesale urban blight.

It's not the fault of the unions. It's the fault of the racist pricks who were fearful of living next to blacks.

3/22/2007 5:37:30 PM

Quote :

"have experience with unions...about a dozen different employees at my company ... lost their jobs [somewhere else] because of unions"

you dont have any experience with unions. youve got experience listening to the bitching and moaning (hearsay) of a few disgruntled ex employees.

how do you think that makes you some kind of expert?

as a electrical engineer, i have hired union shops and non-union shops to contract the construction of my companies commercial and industrial building electrical systems, and i have worked directly in the field with the electricians in day to day construction and retrofits.

by far and away, the union firms have been the most thorough, the most skilled, the most safety conscious, and most dependable. generally, they get the job done, and get it done right. the jackleg non-union shops ive dealt with have been hit or miss. half the time their work is shoddy and incomplete and then they try to nickel and dime you on "change orders" when they were the ones doing it wrong in the first place. they are less trained, overall, and more likely to be in violation of OSHA, NEC, and NFPA codes. Professionally speaking, I would rather deal with Union shops any day. With them, I know exactly what I'm going to get. Sure they cost more per hour up front, but the TCO winds up being less because they do what they're supposed to do. For one thing, We dont have to bill time to lawyers to litigate endless contract violations.

For the record, I have also been an electrician, before getting my degree. All my work was non-union (typical NC) except for when I worked one union job (Federal), and it was the best-run and safest construction site I've ever been on.

3/22/2007 5:41:59 PM

Quote :

"It's not the fault of the unions. It's the fault of the racist pricks who were fearful of living next to blacks."

in this country you can live/move wherever you want

3/22/2007 5:43:14 PM

and you can establish homeowners associations to keep blacks out too.

3/22/2007 5:46:58 PM

Quote :

"But Seattle's interstate exchange does not come from unionized industries. And the few that do are no where near as successful as the UAW has been at keeping wages high and productivity low. Construction unions, if you are right, do nothing more than make the local population poorer, not un-competitive."

again you dont know what youre talking about.

Seattle has the largest urban deepwater container port on the west coast. the amount of daily cargo via asia through seattle is insane. the entire port of seattle, all the longshoremen, teamsters, etc. everything is union.

Boeing. ever heard of them? the aerospace industry dominates seattle. And Boeing is absolutely killing Airbus in sales and production. they are entirely union. hell, even as an engineer, if i were to work for Boeing, I'd have to join the engineer's union.

and the service employees union. represent just about every service industry. its a huge union in seattle. and the various trade labor (construction trades) are union. if you do construction in seattle, you better be union, or you arent gettting any work.

now despite all of this, seattle is consistently one of the most desirable and highly ranked places to live for all sorts of metrics including quality of life.

detroit has problems, to be sure, but it isnt systemic of unionization.

3/22/2007 5:48:58 PM

^^fair housing act?

Quote :

"The Fair Housing Act, 42 U.S.C. § 3601 et seq., prohibits discrimination in housing and makes it illegal to refuse to provide housing or housing-related services based on numerous classes, including race or color, national origin, religion, sex, handicap, and familial status. As amended, the Act is applicable to condominium associations and townhouses, as well as garden apartments, multi-family dwellings and dormitories. The penalties for violations of the Act can be severe; up to $1,000.00 or a period of incarceration for one (1) year, or, if bodily injury results from the violation, the penalty could increase to up to $10,000.00 and incarceration for up to ten (10) years. "

[Edited on March 22, 2007 at 5:55 PM. Reason : ^]

3/22/2007 5:55:36 PM

what do you think was one of the major reasons behind that act?

3/22/2007 6:00:01 PM

"Last year the automaker, known for its innovative approach to health care, spent $5.2 billion to cover 1.1 million retirees, employees and their families. Prescription drugs cost GM $1.9 billion, and the company projects overall medical spending will increase by $400 million this year. That could be offset by a provision in the Medicare drug benefit to pick up a portion of firms' retiree drug costs.

But the figure that prompted Wagoner to raise his voice is $1,500. That is the amount of money added to the price of every single vehicle to cover health care, a cost that his foreign competitors do not bear. "
washington post

"GM said in the annual report its obligation for post-retirement health care and other benefits was $68 billion at the end of last year and could grow on a global basis."

"GM said it provides extensive pension and retiree health care benefits to more than 400,000 retirees and surviving spouses in the U.S."

"On Wednesday, GM reported a profit of $950 million for the fourth quarter, but the company still lost $2 billion for the year. It also lost $10.4 billion in 2005, and is in the midst of shedding thousands of jobs and closing plants to shrink its factory capacity to be more competitive with Asian automakers, mainly Toyota Motor Corp."

AP

Yeah, thousands of jobs lost bc of racist views in the 50s. LOL

3/22/2007 7:48:41 PM

"The average union GM wage is about $30 an hour and benefits add another $65 an hour, for a total of about $95 an hour. There are literally millions of people who are working just as hard in this country in factory and labor jobs who are making far less than half that amount. In addition, when a union GM worker is laid off, they receive 95 percent of their pay for a year or more. On top of all that, they retire with a very nice pension and full medical insurance."

good article.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060206/ai_n16049112

"Many people attribute General Motors' problems to producing cars that are not inspiring or a compelling value. Actually, GM has been producing world-class cars that are a solid value and compare favorably to the competition."

GM is paying for more retirees than they have employees. And you wonder why they cant compete with foreign automakers. Wake up. Unions once had a place in this country, now they are just away to speed up your job going overseas.

3/22/2007 7:52:43 PM

^ And GM used that to get workers to come work for them that otherwise would've worked elsewhere, and that was why everyone wanted to work there. They dug their own grave not thinking long-term.

There are some companies that deserve some pity in America. GM are not one of them.

Unions overstep their bounds, duh. You're on a motherf***ing university message board, I think we all know that.

But there are some companies where pension funds are raided by executives and then they whine that they can't afford it because of their lack of leadership, and YOU the taxpayer pick up the tab.

There are some companies that go up to their suppliers and say "you will drop the cost of your part by 10% or you're fired".

There are some companies that design everything in their vehicle to fail at 100,000 miles.

There are some companies that are notorious for paying automotive magazines to give them "Truck of the Year" perenially instead of earning it by having the best truck that year.

There are some companies that think a good ad campaign is having John Mellencamp sing "This Is Our Country" for six months straight.

There are some companies that advertise their product in NASCAR by laying down $150 million in the sport, and yet the consumers there already buy their products, when they need new consumers to buy cars if they're to increase market share.

There are some companies that actually think buying the quagmire that is Chrysler, on top of their own problems, is a good idea. If that happened I think I would go buy shares in what's remaining of MG, it's better run.

Unions are a very small part of the problem that is GM. The company was ran by bean counters with little regard for the future for far too many years to be healthy. It's no coincidence that the best run part of GM and the one held in the highest regard by the population, the Corvette, was ran on its own terms and not in the bean counter method.

[Edited on March 22, 2007 at 8:35 PM. Reason : .]

3/22/2007 8:16:03 PM

There current union contract is up this year. GM is going to have to make huge cuts to keep afloat. Bush has already said there will be no govt help, so they will have to sink or swim on thier own. The unions will probably strike. Where I live the unions went on strike at the goodyear plant. In 10 years there probably wont be a goodyear plant here, but none of them see it. Some main concerns were them having to pay 20 a month for healthcare for a family of 4, and cutting salary on new hires. They also fought to keep a plant in texas open for 1 more year...haha, seems funny to me.

3/22/2007 8:23:54 PM

I do think auto workers make too much.


But it's an entirely moot issue when you make craptastic cars that no one buys.

Taking a grand or two off an Impala by reducing worker benefits won't make them any less crappy.

Quote :

"Actually, GM has been producing world-class cars that are a solid value and compare favorably to the competition."

That's hilarious. Did Rick Wagoner ghost write this?

Cobalt v. Civic/Corrola?
Impala v. Accord/Camry/Maxima?

If you can think of a major auto manufacturer that more consistently develops absolute shit-buckets, name it. They put all their eggs in the SUV basket, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.

3/22/2007 8:35:36 PM

boone, yeah that qoute did make me laugh, but the info in the article is informative.

GM is paying nearly 3 nonworkers for everyworker. Thats a shitton of money that could be better spent on better materials, research, etc.

Look im not suggesting that the management shares no blame for GM woes. They turned their back on hybrids to continue with thier strong SUVs and trucks, and once those markets slowed they were scrambling to keep track. However, the influence of unions on big companies in a global market are suffocating alot of these jobs out of the US.

Remember the NY transit strike? 65k to tear tickets.. If they could have shipped those jobs overseas dont you think they would have? Thats ridiculous.

3/22/2007 9:04:49 PM

^ An apartment in New York costs a bit more than an apartment in Hanoi.

Quote :

"GM is paying nearly 3 nonworkers for everyworker. "

And that is GM's fault for paying those 3 nonworkers. Not the worker himself. If my company is stupid enough to say they'll pay me a pension and full medical, I'm not going to say no. If GM were a better ran company, they could've kept the union in check and still be working hand-in-hand with its workers. My company does, we're a Fortune 500 company, we have unions at most of our plants in the U.S. (not the one I work at though), and our company had its best year financially since the 1960s.

And on to those 3 nonworkers, cause GM was poorly ran, the federal government pays for it via Penny Benny, which means more government expense, which means more taxes to pay for that expense, which means that gets passed on to you, me, and the other companies in America that actually do a good job running their company are paying more taxes due to GM's ineptitude.

[Edited on March 22, 2007 at 9:31 PM. Reason : .]

3/22/2007 9:23:05 PM

well, at least the car can get you out of detroit...

oh, and Ryan, the word is "run." not "ran." get it right. it's making my teeth itch

[Edited on March 22, 2007 at 11:16 PM. Reason : ]

3/22/2007 11:06:12 PM

^^^ when it costs $500 or more a person to rent in the most ghetto areas of NYC then it seems pretty reasonable.

[Edited on March 23, 2007 at 12:18 AM. Reason : and I mean ghhhhhhhhettttttto. No new bern pussy shit.]

3/23/2007 12:17:23 AM

i've been outside of detroit for the past 6 weeks. this place is pretty bad. i don't blame it on the unions, i blame it on the crap weather. i mean, the weather here is straight garbage.

3/23/2007 8:38:26 AM

Quote :

"Seattle has the largest urban deepwater container port on the west coast. the amount of daily cargo via asia through seattle is insane. the entire port of seattle, all the longshoremen, teamsters, etc. everything is union."

And what is their only competition? Other unionized ports on the West Coast?

Quote :

"Boeing. ever heard of them? the aerospace industry dominates seattle. And Boeing is absolutely killing Airbus in sales and production. they are entirely union."

And what is their only competition? Government run and unionized Airbus?

Quote :

"the various trade labor (construction trades) are union. if you do construction in seattle, you better be union, or you arent gettting any work."

Again, as you've pointed out, their only competition is other unionized trade labor.

Do you see a patern? All the unionized industries you are calling successful, it just so happens to be either illegal or socially unacceptable for non-unionized labor to compete. So, of course such industries appear competitive, they can bury their inefficiency in increased prices so everyone benefits at the expense of consumers.

It is only when union and non-union companies are allowed to compete that we can discern relative efficiencies. And sure enough, every year numerous companies and tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs are lost in the North-East only to have their markets taken over by firms and their non-union workers in the South.

3/23/2007 8:59:51 AM

Quote :

"you dont have any experience with unions. youve got experience listening to the bitching and moaning (hearsay) of a few disgruntled ex employees."

fuck a union and fuck you

3/23/2007 9:02:06 AM

Quote :

"It is only when union and non-union companies are allowed to compete that we can discern relative efficiencies. And sure enough, every year numerous companies and tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs are lost in the North-East only to have their markets taken over by firms and their non-union workers in the South."

So based on your reasoning, jobs in the South, since they're by and large not unionized, should never be outsourced cause we don't have unions to jack up costs, and hence we are at a more competitive cost, correct?

I have a couple friends at Wachovia and IBM for you to talk to.

[Edited on March 23, 2007 at 10:01 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2007 10:00:57 AM

^ Oh come on man. There is a lot more involved in the cost-benefit of outsourcing than just union versus non-union labor. Apples to Oranges.

3/23/2007 10:14:19 AM

i like how companies go out of business since the unions force them to use a certain percentage of union labor regardless of cost

that sure seems like a good business

i also marvel at the efficiency of paying 10 guys for 5 hours to do the work that would take 1 man 2 hours...brilliant

3/23/2007 10:15:51 AM

Quote :

"fuck a union and fuck you"

and so this backs up your claim that unions suck because some people where you work complain about unions.

brilliant.

you may just convince me yet. i'm sure you've swayed some of the observers here.

3/23/2007 10:45:27 AM

as opposed to your claim about "i've worked with unions and they've done a good job"?

Quote :

"youve got experience listening to the bitching and moaning (hearsay) of a few disgruntled ex employees"

another incorrect assumption on your part

Quote :

"by far and away, the union firms have been the most thorough, the most skilled, the most safety conscious, and most dependable"

i'm sure you dont have a problem with halliburton doing work in iraq for the same reasons?

i've worked with literally hundreds of non union subcontractors that do a great job

[Edited on March 23, 2007 at 10:54 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2007 10:52:48 AM

has anyone actually worked with unions in this thread?

3/23/2007 10:54:06 AM

once again, my "hearsay" means jack shit...who cares i literally know lots of people who lost their jobs because of unions...hell their companies went bankrupt strictly because of unions

but thats just "hearsay" so its obviously completely irrelevant

i mean unions are perfect...thats evident by nobody expressing their concerns with them

3/23/2007 10:55:21 AM

Quote :

"once again, my "hearsay" everything i say means jack shit"

fixed it for you.

3/23/2007 10:56:19 AM

Quote :

"fixed it for you i am nothing but a troll"

there, i fixed that for you

or you could share your own knowledge/experience of unions

oh thats right you're just a troll

3/23/2007 10:57:11 AM

Does one have to know people who work as part of a Union personally do be uncomfortable with the spirit of collectivism that it spreads?

When someone says that a "union firm" did good work, perhaps we shouldn't necessarily attribute said quality of work to the union itself and perhaps instead the individual men and women who did the job?

3/23/2007 10:58:32 AM