their ancestors were slave owners...

Was I the only one who read this in The Technician today and almost spewed milk out of his nose? So my great great great great grandfather, whom I never knew, owned slaves. Whoopty-freakin-do. Doesn't change my life whatsoever. Am I supposed to be all sad now that I am a descendent of a slaveowner?

seriously, though, why should I give a damn or even be embarassed or ashamed to be a descendent of a slaveonwer?

3/28/2007 12:52:11 AM

because you should be.

3/28/2007 12:52:51 AM

so, I should be ashamed to be related to someone I don't know who did something that was perfectly acceptable at the time but that we now find abhorrent? why should I be ashamed? I can't help from whose vagina I was birthed, can I?

3/28/2007 1:07:16 AM

First, you should donate everything you own to the NAACP. It is advised that you should then whip yourself once for each slave your family ever owned. After that, you might be forgiven for something you had nothing to do with.

3/28/2007 1:19:20 AM

Quote :

"because you should be."

good point

Quote :

"First, you should donate everything you own to the NAACP. It is advised that you should then whip yourself once for each slave your family ever owned. After that, you might be forgiven for something you had nothing to do with."

Who is doing the forgiving? Black people?

3/28/2007 1:35:26 AM

white people kill me with this. u do realize every thing that has happend in the past effects today right? your life would be totally different if you greatx4 grandfather was a slave (well u'd be black and probly wouldn't have posted this but i mean other than that)

now u shouldn't feel bad, guitly or ashammed in the least for it. u shouldn't apologize, lose sleep or feel obligated to hug a black guy. just realize even though it's not infront of you, those events did have some impact on making your life the way it is today no matter how small a differnce it may be.

3/28/2007 1:36:49 AM

^ best point I've heard on the argument... I agree

But you can't classify all of us as "white people" in that. Alot of our families didn't own slaves. Some of us are just one or two generation americans.

I will admit that I'm not one of those... I'm sure my family owned slaves...but, my point still stands




[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 1:50 AM. Reason : attempt #2]

3/28/2007 1:38:09 AM

^Shit, I got 14 12 generations going back...born, died, and buried right here in NC. No slaves.

Your family just sucks.

LOL

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 2:46 AM. Reason : Two of those generations are still kickin'.]

3/28/2007 2:44:48 AM

I agree with that post ^^^ but you should also be aware of the social norms of that era. Morality wasn't measured the same then. The past really does matter though. Since you couldn't help what your great great great great grandparents did, it'd be retarded to feel bad, but recognizing the impact of the past is important. I would use the information as an anecdote. Might make you feel closer to that particular aspect of history.

3/28/2007 4:39:45 AM

My mom's family were farmers in Indiana, a non-slave state.

My dad's family were coal miners in eastern Kentucky, and therefore too poor to own a slave.

And please all read this article: http://www.unctv.org/bif/transcripts/2004/transcript2014.html . I'm in favor of finding out these people's descendants if that reparations argument gets too serious.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 6:36 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 6:33:01 AM

My ancestors were yankeees

3/28/2007 6:43:58 AM

hahahahhaha i'm lucky...i can talk shit about you whites with your slave owning relatives

my polock decendant ass came over to the americas around world war 1 time...boo yah!

3/28/2007 6:46:56 AM

So how many Blacks are descendants of White slaver owners? Do they owe themselves an apology?

3/28/2007 7:29:06 AM

I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the people who owned slaves. It was socially accepted at the time and had been practiced for thousands of years.

this could be because I'm white though.... although it's probable that my ancestors were slaves at some point in their lives (maybe they were conquered by rome, who knows) and that doesn't bother me.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 8:06 AM. Reason : -y]

3/28/2007 8:05:51 AM

Yeah, I want reparations from descendents of Romans or Vikings or something.

3/28/2007 8:34:30 AM

^fuck

that means I have to pay myself reparations

I'm half Italian, half mix of Irish, English, Scottish, French, German

3/28/2007 8:39:57 AM

Quote :

"So how many Blacks are descendants of White slaver owners? Do they owe themselves an apology?"

Barack Obama (through his white mother), according to a claim by I think Hillary Clinton's campaign.

3/28/2007 8:40:40 AM

Quote :

"because you should be."

I guess all the North/West African tribes and Arabs that sold the ancestors of today's American blacks to the Europeans should be too...

3/28/2007 8:49:05 AM

im irish

so I cant be blamed for anything.

3/28/2007 8:54:57 AM

i know mine didnt

they left the old country after 1900

3/28/2007 8:56:48 AM

This whole argument is rather silly about whether or not one owned slaves. American society, and by its extension, every American citizen, owes a debt to the slaves who suffered and helped kickstart this nation. Even if your ancestors arrived after slavery, the benefits you currently enjoy in this nation were built upon a foundation laid out by the sweat and toil of slave labor.

That being said, one could debate that the government paid that price in the Civil War by the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans and the destruction of nearly half the country. Or that affirmative action is our society's attempt at repayment to those who have been disadvantaged by the system (assuming that its restricted to just African Americans). I'm not fond of cash reparations because they wouldn't be productive at all.

3/28/2007 9:37:37 AM

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/exhibits/civilwar/about_section1a.html

Quote :

"On the eve of the American Civil War, North Carolina was a rural state with a total population of 992,622. Most citizens had been born in North Carolina and farmed for a living. Foreign-born people made up less than 1 percent of the state's population in 1860, and 72 percent of white families owned no slaves. Evan so, African Americans accounted for approximately one-third of the total population, and the majority were slaves."

Quote :

"The majority of North Carolinians in 1860 came from white yeoman families who worked small farms, fifty to one hundred acres in size, and owned no slaves. They had more concern about rainfall, crops, and seasonal changes for planting and harvesting than about national politics. They produced much of what they consumed and relied on the sale of surplus crops for money to buy what they could not grow or make by hand on their farms. Men from these families would constitute the majority of North Carolina's Confederate soldiers in the coming war. "

If you were a white North Carolinian before the Civil War, you most likely were not a slaveowner (especially if you didn't live in Eastern NC). If you were a slaveowner, you probably weren't a planter (i.e. had a small number of house slaves/fieldhands that you worked alongside).

Most blacks in NC were slaves, but most whites were not slaveowners.

3/28/2007 9:50:34 AM

Quote :

"every American citizen, owes a debt to the slaves who suffered and helped kickstart this nation. Even if your ancestors arrived after slavery, the benefits you currently enjoy in this nation were built upon a foundation laid out by the sweat and toil of slave labor."

I'm sorry I don't feel I owe a debt to slaves or to their ancestors. Slaves were cheap labor of the time and thats it. If the US was the only country using slaves and that is what built our "foundation" of the country then that would be one thing. But that isn't the case as slavery was widespread around the world. That being said it is not correct to attribute the great success of our country to it being built apon slavery unless you think the US had better slaves or something (a rediculous claim).

I also don't feel I owe a debt to mexico and china everytime I buy a cheap piece of clothing. I'm sure the few dollars that companies pay outsourced labor a week is comparable to the ammount slave owners spent a day on food and lodging for slaves. 100 years from now are people going to be saying we owe a debt to these nations for using their cheap labor?

If I feel any guilt or think debt is owed it would be people of this country who currently have to endure legitimate racism.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 9:57 AM. Reason : quote]

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 9:58 AM. Reason : typo argg]

3/28/2007 9:56:50 AM

Sorry, but slavery was a National sin and did continue in the US longer than it did in other Western countries. Legality /= morality. On whether blame can be assigned to specific individuals (and/or their descendants) is a far different issue.

Jim Crow laws disadvantaged today's blacks far more than slavery, and many people alive today actually did live through that.

3/28/2007 10:16:18 AM

3/28/2007 10:18:52 AM

Quote :

"Sorry, but slavery was a National sin and did continue in the US longer than it did in other Western countries. Legality /= morality. On whether blame can be assigned to specific individuals (and/or their descendants) is a far different issue."

I agree legality != morality. But morality does change over time and in the early years of slavery in the US people considered it moral. Also the US did continue slavery longer than most other western countries but not by much. Massachusetts (and the north) was the forerunner in banning slavery (long before other western countries, 20 years before hippie canada, 85 years before the portugese colonies) and the 13th amendment was passed in 1865 before Brazil, Cuba, and Portugese colonies.

The north of the US was far ahead of the curve (of the west or worldwide) in abolishing slavery and the country as a whole abolished slavery before many countries and within 10-15 years of most. Saying the US used slavery longer than other western countries is misleading.

Quote :

"Jim Crow laws disadvantaged today's blacks far more than slavery, and many people alive today actually did live through that."

I agree. I said racism after slavery was the only thing I feel guilt for.

3/28/2007 10:36:42 AM

well shit


[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason : link didnt work]

3/28/2007 10:40:12 AM

I know for a fact that my family, way back, owned slaves. Am I proud? No. Am I ashamed? Not really. It was "the thing to do at the time." (supposedly, I don't agree.)

Does it affect me now? Nope.

I hate it when people get their panties in a bundle of shit like this.

3/28/2007 10:40:15 AM

I think the reparations / guilt arguments do nothing but harm the community (the entire community) We should be focused on improving the community as a whole, by all sorts of means and methods... and that means leaving behind these discussions and focusing on current problems as well as current solutions.

The longer we keep it as a black/white discussion the longer the problems will go unresolved.

3/28/2007 10:43:14 AM

I think my ancestors owned Lebron James' ancestors

So even though he is worth over $100,000,000 and I'm not even worth $100,000 I think I owe him a lot of money

3/28/2007 10:54:30 AM

these are arguments when i'm glad i come from poor irish farmers and scottish laypersons

3/28/2007 11:32:27 AM

i came from a heritage that had a different form of slavery. in the caste system, certain people were taught from birth that they were lower beings and that they had to serve others by performing untouchable jobs.

there was no need for chains and whips once this system was executed properly. you whiteys were so low-tech with your version of slavery.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 12:06 PM. Reason : ghgdfghdfhdfh]

3/28/2007 12:05:38 PM

ashamed? no. Care? yes.

3/28/2007 12:27:14 PM

my ancestors came over from Europe after the turn of the century so I know my ancestors didn't have slaves. In fact, my ancestors were probably slaves to some Feudal lord, or maybe the Romans even. So what makes the blacks so special? They've just been unfortunate to have it happen to them later on in world history.

3/28/2007 12:42:56 PM

^^^ Hindu heritage? Just curious.

3/28/2007 12:46:38 PM

Quote :

"i came from a heritage that had a different form of slavery. in the caste system, certain people were taught from birth that they were lower beings and that they had to serve others by performing untouchable jobs. there was no need for chains and whips once this system was executed properly. you whiteys were so low-tech with your version of slavery. "

ahahahhaha GG

3/28/2007 2:15:54 PM

My ancestors were poor immigrants. I'm pretty sure we didn't own much of anything.

3/29/2007 9:14:50 AM

Quote :

"Hindu heritage? Just curious."

ya

3/29/2007 10:13:18 AM

Quote :

"Even if your ancestors arrived after slavery, the benefits you currently enjoy in this nation were built upon a foundation laid out by the sweat and toil of slave labor."

You evidently know nothing about the provision and transfer of capital stock. Whatever the slaves helped build prior to 1864 was dead and burried by 1910. Contrary to popular misconception, we are no richer today because of the toil and sweat of 1800 workers, on the contrary, we owe 100% of our capital stock to just the past few generations. Why? Because their roads, factories, houses, etc, are still here and in use, thus making us richer.

Now, in so-far as earlier generations developed technology, of which slaves had very little incentive to invent, we owe them a lot.

As such, to 1960's man we owe them substantially for their technological development and population development (the more children they had the more of us there are and the more capital stock was developed by later generations which is still around), but that is the end of it. Nothing else they built was of value to us directly, it all either fell down or was bulldozed long ago.

3/29/2007 10:19:29 AM

i'm half martian. i think my grandmother owned some slaves from venus or something. not sure. i'm gonna roll over to mars tonight though with kool keith and check on this...

3/29/2007 1:58:07 PM

some black students might find out that their ancestors were slave owners

a lot of slave traders were african

3/29/2007 2:13:23 PM

Quote :

"LoneSnark: Contrary to popular misconception, we are no richer today because of the toil and sweat of 1800 workers"

Prove it.

3/29/2007 3:06:59 PM

Quote :

"white people kill me with this. u do realize every thing that has happend in the past effects today right? your life would be totally different if you greatx4 grandfather was a slave (well u'd be black and probly wouldn't have posted this but i mean other than that) now u shouldn't feel bad, guitly or ashammed in the least for it. u shouldn't apologize, lose sleep or feel obligated to hug a black guy. just realize even though it's not infront of you, those events did have some impact on making your life the way it is today no matter how small a differnce it may be."

i agree completely

still, who gives a shit

3/29/2007 3:28:49 PM

where would most blacks be if slavery did not exist


africa

3/29/2007 5:35:47 PM

^I fail to see your point.

3/29/2007 9:26:12 PM

if we go back far enough, even slave owners themselves are descendents of slaves and their slaves are descendents of slave owners.... omg slaves should pay reparations to their masters

3/29/2007 9:47:40 PM

White Guilt®

3/29/2007 9:51:04 PM

^lol

3/29/2007 9:59:02 PM

Quote :

"because you should be."

You're an idiot. Just because some relative hundreds of years ago did something that was socially acceptable back then doesn't mean we have to be embarrassed about that fact. So what if my great, great, great grandfather was a damn slave owner, wasn't my decision, don't try to blame me for it. Way I see it that's just as racist to think that white people whose great, great, great, great grandparents were slave owners as it is to judge present day Germans for being Nazis in the 30's and 40's.

Can we all just get past the fact that black people were enslaved in this country. Different races have been enslaved by other groups countless times over the course of human history. The Egyptians (who were probably black) enslaved a whole bunch of white people (jews). Even today, Black Muslims in Africa are enslaving other non believers (non-Muslim blacks) and forcing them into a religion they don't believe and a social structure they didn't choose. Slavery is a world wide issue. We don't even have slavery in this country anymore and we haven't had it for a pretty long time, so that's a step up from other places around the world.

[Edited on March 29, 2007 at 10:35 PM. Reason : because i felt like it]

3/29/2007 10:34:53 PM

Quote :

"Prove it."

Well, let me do it via comparison first and then theoretically.

In 1945, the following geographical regions had just finished being bombed back to the stone age:
Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan, Germany, France, Italy.

Now, in 1945 these places were dirt poor, barely above subsistence. Fifty years later, every single one of these places is rich. Germany, by comparison, is richer than Mississippi, a place that has never suffered aerial bombardment. Hong Kong has the 15th highest per-capita GDP on the planet, slavery has never been legal on the island.

To put it more simply, comparing countries to each other, the prior existence and legality of slavery has no discernible positive effect upon modern productivity. Hell, it seems to have a discernible negative effect upon modern productivity. Northern states, which on average banned slavery early, enjoy higher productivity than southern states, which did not.

And from a purely theoretical perspective as discerned by Adam Smith in the Wealthy of Nations, slavery has a corrosive effect upon productivity and wealth creation. Slaves, on average, eat and sleep as much as they can and work as little as possible because they do not reap the benefits of their labor, in other words they will cut corners. Black farmers, as an example, produce twice as much cotton per person organized as share croppers than they would as impressed slaves. Not to mention the wasted efforts of the slave driver which could instead be employed elsewhere.

So, it seems to me, our slave owning ancestors owe reparations not just to their slaves but to their descendants which were also harmed, if indirectly, by slavery and its negative effects upon productivity and thus wealth creation.

[Edited on March 29, 2007 at 11:45 PM. Reason : seems]

3/29/2007 11:43:49 PM