Well, my roommate's completely unmodified, normally driven 96 civic cx hatch with 135k miles (single cam D series, non vtec) died today on the highway. According to him, the car ran rough for a maybe half a minute (running out of fuel?) and then died. It turns over fine but won't start up. From what my roommate described the tow truck guy said he couldn't hear the fuel pump prime when he turned the key (it is supposed to prime right?). He had the car towed to our parking lot.

zxappeal replaced his ignition coil like a year ago, and we have already replaced plugs, wires, cap, and rotor. No check engine light has come on at all. The fuel filter has been replaced within the past year. So that leaves just the fuel pump right? Now I could test this possibly by removing the intake pipe and spraying a bit of starter fluid in there to see if it will fire up, couldn't I?

So let's say it is the fuel pump. I've changed a fuel pump on my 7 before and according to this writeup

http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/showthread.php?t=190642&highlight=fuel+pump

it's the same deal really--just remove a panel and it comes right out. None of that GM drop the fuel tank bullshit. So what about the part then? I see them on ebay (listed as 96-00 oem civic fuel pump) for like $40-50 shipped. Obviously the stealership is out of the question, and I have not gone to Advance to see if they have it and what they will charge. Will he be ok for a while with a used one?

Thanks for all your help.

[Edited on April 11, 2007 at 12:11 AM. Reason : .]

4/11/2007 12:08:12 AM

you need to rule out main relay first

4/11/2007 12:12:42 AM

Quote :

"fuel pump prime"

is this were optprime gets his name?

ok i'm gonna leave now i hope someone answers, just curious...

4/11/2007 12:16:57 AM

Forgot about the main relay thing. Anyone have access to a service manual with the testing procedure? Or would that be in a Haynes manual?

4/11/2007 1:45:05 AM

if im not mistakin... u can hit up some public libraries and they have manuals on car well i heard that once.. might be an urban legend.

4/11/2007 1:59:07 AM

Look under the dash for a big black dick dual-plug relay. Smack it.

Though one would wonder why it would quit in mid-run. The failure pattern that I'm most familiar with is getting in to crank on a cold morning and the fuel pump not energizing.

You can pull the back seat up and get to the plug for the pump there. Get your multimeter and/or test light handy (I like a test light; shows go/no go quick and easy) and check for pump run immediately when you turn the key.

Oh, and Ray...NEVER buy a used fuel pump. Not unless you just happen to have a junker sitting in the back yard and it's FREE.

Advance does have the pump and it ain't too expensive.

[Edited on April 11, 2007 at 8:03 AM. Reason : If you go to the trouble...BUY NEW.]

4/11/2007 8:01:18 AM

its dead.

ill buy it

$300

4/11/2007 8:30:06 AM

i'll third checking the main relay first. common failure on hondas, especially older ones.

4/11/2007 8:36:09 AM

buy my acura...

4/11/2007 1:14:40 PM

your acura is overpriced

4/11/2007 3:23:27 PM

It is under KBB and alot less than comparable cars on Autotrader.

4/11/2007 5:35:05 PM

Alright I finally got to work on it today. I pulled out the rear seats and took the panel off the fuel pump. When I put the key in, I can hear it priming and I hear the relay click. There is 12 volts when it primes and when cranking I see the voltage drop to maybe 10.5 (though the battery is starting to get a little discharged now from turning the starter multiple times). For some reason it randomly started up one time too... it took a while but it started. Then when I tried to backprobe a wire on a connector the car just randomly died and wouldn't start up again. The 15 amp EFI fuse is not blown. So I thought I should go check the fuel pressure at this point.

I called a friend who has Alldata but not much knowledge of civics, and he said that Alldata calls for hooking up the OEM tester to the banjo bolt on top of the fuel filter. Well I picked up a fuel pressure gauge but I don't know how the heck to hook it up to the fuel filter--it's designed for a Schrader valve and I didn't see one, but I may have just missed it. I know that banjo bolt is M12 x 1.25 but I guess I would need some kind of fitting to make it work. It's too late to go looking for something now though so I put that idea aside.

I did loosen up the banjo bolt on the fuel rail (the bolt that connects the line from the fuel filter to the rail) and fuel dripped out--but it didn't spray out. It should though, shouldn't it?

So now what? Change the fuel filter again? It probably has 10,000 miles on it, maybe less.

Any ideas about checking the fuel pressure?

[Edited on April 21, 2007 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/21/2007 8:12:34 PM

Crack the little screw on top of the banjo. Have homecracker turn on the ignition. Spray? No? Why not?

If so, then you gots issues. Pull a plug wire and check for spark.

If not, then you gots other issues. Like the main relay not kicking it. or the pump is just shizzot. You'll need to backprobe the connector, mang.

4/21/2007 8:55:30 PM

Alright I'll mess with the screw probably tomorrow.

But maybe I didn't make it clear--I DID backprobe the fuel pump connector, it's just that the one random time the car ran the process of backprobing somehow made it cut off. Anyway it was 12 volts when priming for a few seconds, 10.5 volts as the car cranks but fails to start, and I hear audible clicks as the pump turns on and off. There is no indication of main relay failure from what I've seen, although it's still possible that it could be an intermittent problem.

4/21/2007 10:31:42 PM

do you have fire?

4/22/2007 5:42:10 PM

^ I'll check that, tomorrow hopefully. there have been no check engine lights though and the car has had plugs, wire, cap, rotor, and coil within the past year

4/23/2007 12:34:12 AM

Quote :

"you need to rule out main relay first"

Quote :

"i'll third checking the main relay first. common failure on hondas, especially older ones."

Quote :

"Look under the dash for a big black dual-plug relay"

[Edited on April 23, 2007 at 1:14 AM. Reason : .]

4/23/2007 1:12:14 AM

might want to check the main relay

4/23/2007 3:10:56 PM

Update: First of all, it has no spark actually. I pulled a plug and held it against a strut tower bolt as it cranked and no spark came out (with the plug in the wire obviously). I also disconnected the wire from the distributor and didn't see any spark come from the distributor.

I loosened the banjo bolt on the top of the fuel filter a little bit and it sprays out fuel when I crank. The fuel pump also has voltage when it cranks, I can hear it whine when it primes, and I can hear some kind of relay click. Can the main relay still be bad if the fuel pump is running? I'm not even sure how to check it. I looked under the dash and honestly I saw a bunch of relay looking things but I didn't see one that obviously looked like it was the "big black two-plug relay." I looked in a Haynes manual and it didn't have a diagram of where it is.

A friend of mine suggested the ignition module. How do I check this? I know I have to pull the distributor cap off, but then what?

Thanks for all your help and your patience.

4/23/2007 7:01:22 PM

pull the fuel rail to see if it delivers.

take the dist. cap off and check the rotor.

test the spark plus in different places other than the strut tower bolt. try ofther bolts and grounds.

4/23/2007 10:52:12 PM

with the ignition on, do you have 12 volts to the black and yellow wire on the coil? check that and i can go from there

4/23/2007 11:00:33 PM

Alright, I finally had a chance to mess with it again. I checked the wires on the ignition module: black/yellow had voltage and so did yellow/green.

I used this writeup: http://www.jdmlyfestyle.com/how_to_check_and_replace_the_icm.htm

Is this not indicative of a bad ignition module then? I haven't directly checked the coil, but Dan replaced it a year ago...

5/8/2007 10:00:17 AM

did you check the signal ground and reference voltage to the CKP and CMP, and coil?

5/8/2007 12:46:50 PM

no... I don't have alldata and I don't know how to perfrom these checks (wire colors etc). i'm a seat-of-the-pants internet mechanic right now. I just ordered a new ignition module... should I cancel the order?

[Edited on May 8, 2007 at 2:21 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2007 2:20:44 PM

your best bet is to throw parts at it till it runs

5/8/2007 2:47:22 PM

alright i found the FSM online http://spoonhonda.com/index_mozilla.htm . I am going to rerun the tests in there for the ICM and I need to see what it says about the CKP and all that other stuff

[Edited on May 8, 2007 at 3:03 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2007 2:53:43 PM

Noid lite works well for these things. I have an LED test light that works very well...what I used last year.

Big deal is determining whether or not the ignitor is actually receiving the waveform from the pickup assembly...and is the ignitor triggering the ECM? And THEN is the ECM firing the coil?

5/8/2007 3:26:44 PM

well i'm going to swap the ignition module and if that doesn't work, I won't have time to do anything else before graduation stuff and then a vacation. My roommate will get it towed to Happy Jap's if the ICM doesn't fix it because we have to get this thing out of the Wolf Village parking lot.

5/8/2007 10:35:43 PM

if you have power on those two, and no codes in the computer for the tdc, ckp, or cmp, then it pretty much narrows it down to the coil or module, and the coil is easy to check resistance on, did you check to be sure the module has a good ground? check the brown/black wires to the negative battery post, should be no resistance

5/8/2007 10:56:48 PM

Alright, I installed the ignition module and the car is getting spark now. Bear with me please, I'm attempting all this stuff for the first time and I am no mechanic. Thus I tend to fix one thing and break another...

The problem is, I somehow fucked up my installation of the distributor and/or rotor. I'm pretty sure the timing is off--the car sounded like it was about to start for a split second and then died, and it just seems a little off when it cranks, like it's about to run but it just won't. And I think the engine is shaking a little more than usual, but this could be my imagination. I'm 99% sure the plugs are hooked up correctly. I double checked the service manual--as long as cylinder 1 is the one closest to the driver's side the plugs are hooked up correctly.

There are two things I think I may have done which messed this up: I think I pulled off the rotor and for some stupid reason turned the engine over afterwards. Don't ask me why. Could that throw off my timing somehow? When I pulled the distributor off I made sure to mark the housing and all, but I think I somehow moved the thingie that's in the distributor and connects to the camshaft. I don't recall turning the car over while the distributor was out.





Any advice?

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 7:31 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2007 7:28:09 PM

you fucked up son, you need to pull the valve cover, put #1 on tdc compression, set the #1 post even with the rotor button to get it close, lock it down, start it,and check it with a timing light to get it right, two marks that woulda taken 5 seconds just set you back about 2 hours

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 9:24 PM. Reason : never roll an engine over with the dizzy out]

5/9/2007 9:23:28 PM

i remember the first time i learned.

























sike that was like 10 years of wrenching ago, it fun to watch ppl noob on themselves.

5/9/2007 9:26:11 PM

^^it says he marked it and didn't spin it with the distributor out.

still, my money is on the timing is definitely off. you did something to it. you can also pull a plug and bump it to TDC feeling with a screwdriver, but you may have to rotate the distributor 180 degrees if you don't get it on the compression stroke.

in fact, that may be what you did anyway. try turning the thing 180 and see if it fires. if it's hitting at all, you might be able to turn the distributor back/forth enough to get it to fire without going through the TDC trouble.

either way, you need to get a light on it after it fires at this point.

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 9:32 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2007 9:29:15 PM

Quote :

"When I pulled the distributor off I made sure to mark the housing and all, but I think I somehow moved the thingie that's in the distributor and connects to the camshaft."

did you mark the rotor position on the housing, and the housing to the head? you have to line up both

5/9/2007 9:34:21 PM

IIRC that dist will only reinstall one way durrr

5/9/2007 9:40:23 PM

the housing will, but he could have still spun the shaft/head all out of whack...

btw, don't trust the pointer and crank pulley marks for a minute to determine TDC. i've seen too many that are way off.

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 9:43 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2007 9:41:47 PM

IIRC no matter how dumb you are you couldnt fuck up installing this distributor. there is only one way the housing could be positioned and the cam/dist shaft only mates one way. there is a pic posted up there that illustrates this.

5/9/2007 9:50:10 PM

yeah, i see what you're saying. it's not a conventional gear type shaft, it has a keyway. still could be 180 out though, right?

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 9:53 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2007 9:52:28 PM

Hondas only go in ONE way. You really can't put one out of time more than 15 degrees or so without REALLY trying to fuck shit up.

The dizzy only goes in the end of the cam one way. the drive tangs on the dizzy are offset and so is the groove in the cam.

But still, it does make perfect sense to rotate the thing to TDC on compression on #1 and verify that the rotor is pointing in the right direction.

5/9/2007 9:52:47 PM

true, try loosening it and rotating it slightly back and forth and see if it'll crank and run, its also possible the plugs are fouled from a lot of raw fuel with no spark from messin with it so much

5/9/2007 9:53:16 PM

Yeah, I talked to Ray. That's the next thing he's gonna try and do. Crank 'er over @ WOT to try and clear the cylinders.

5/9/2007 9:54:24 PM

^^^ah, offset too. i thought it was just a crappy drawing with them sitting to the left.

[Edited on May 9, 2007 at 9:56 PM. Reason : never messed with a honduh dizzy...]

5/9/2007 9:54:52 PM

They are rather crappy drawings, ain't they?

5/9/2007 9:56:21 PM

Honestly, i was really impressed with this service manual. It's about a million times better than the one for my dad's 99 Corolla. It has better textual descriptions, the drawings are actually better, and it's organized much more logically. And the drawings are way better than anything in my mazda manuals...

of course I haven't read too many factory manuals. Are the American manufacturers better with this stuff?

5/10/2007 7:45:49 AM

Dan just came over and looked at it. It was just flooded. Guess I didn't fuck it up after all--the root problem was the ignition module.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

5/12/2007 7:24:45 PM

dammit i wish i had seen this thread earlier so dan could owe me another cheeseburger. i would've told you it was the ignition module long ago.

5/13/2007 8:00:11 AM