Quote :

"Dinesh D'Souza comments on atheism in general and the lack of response from a reputed professor at Va Tech, Richard Dawkins, who is an atheist. Richard Dawkins responds to D'Souza's comments. D'Souza: Notice something interesting about the aftermath of the Virginia Tech shootings? Atheists are nowhere to be found. Every time there is a public gathering there is talk of God and divine mercy and spiritual healing. Even secular people like the poet Nikki Giovanni use language that is heavily drenched with religious symbolism and meaning. The atheist writer Richard Dawkins has observed that according to the findings of modern science, the universe has all the properties of a system that is utterly devoid of meaning. The main characteristic of the universe is pitiless indifference. Dawkins further argues that we human beings are simply agglomerations of molecules, assembled into functional units over millennia of natural selection, and as for the soul--well, that's an illusion! To no one's surprise, Dawkins has not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community. What this tells me is that if it's difficult to know where God is when bad things happen, it is even more difficult for atheism to deal with the problem of evil. The reason is that in a purely materialist universe, immaterial things like good and evil and souls simply do not exist. For scientific atheists like Dawkins, Cho's shooting of all those people can be understood in this way--molecules acting upon molecules. If this is the best that modern science has to offer us, I think we need something more than modern science. Dawkins: It is hardly surprising that Dinesh D'Souza is once again not only profoundly mistaken but also deeply offensive. But I thought it worthwhile to say something in response, not because most people would put the point in the same morally reptilian manner as D'Souza, but because there is at least some vague sense amongst people that we atheists don't quite grasp the enormity of Monday's events, that we tend towards a cold-hearted manner of thinking, that we condescend to expressions of community, meaning, or bereavement. So I will tell you, Mr D'Souza, what I grasp and where I am to be found. I understand why my wife was frantic on Monday morning, trying to contact me through jammed phone lines. I can still feel the tenor of her voice resonating in my veins when she got through to me, how she shook with relief and tears. I remember how my mother looked the last time she thought she might have lost a son, so I have a vivid image of her and a thousand other mothers that hasn't quite left my mind yet. I am to be found in Lane Stadium, looking out over a sea of maroon and orange, trying not to break down when someone mentions the inviolability of the classroom and the bond between a teacher and his students. That is my classroom, Mr D'Souza, my students, my chosen responsibility in this godless life, my small office in the care of humanity and its youth. I know that brutal death can come unannounced into any life, but that we should aspire to look at our approaching death with equanimity, with a sense that it completes a well-walked trail, that it is a privilege to have our stories run through to their proper end. I don't need to live forever to live once and to live completely. It is precisely because I don't believe there is an afterlife that I am so horrified by the stabbing and slashing and tattering of so many lives around me this week, the despoliation and ruination of the only thing each of us will ever have. We atheists do not believe in gods, or angels, or demons, or souls that endure, or a meeting place after all is said and done where more can be said and done and the point of it all revealed. We don't believe in the possibility of redemption after our lives, but the necessity of compassion in our lives. We believe in people, in their joys and pains, in their good ideas and their wit and wisdom. We believe in human rights and dignity, and we know what it is for those to be trampled on by brutes and vandals. We may believe that the universe is pitilessly indifferent but we know that friends and strangers alike most certainly are not. We despise atrocity, not because a god tells us that it is wrong, but because if not massacre then nothing could be wrong. I am to be found on the drillfield with a candle in my hand. "Amazing Grace" is a beautiful song, and I can sing it for its beauty and its peacefulness. I don't believe in any god, but I do believe in those people who have struggled through pain and found beauty and peace in their religion. I am not at odds with them any more than I am at odds with Americans when we sing the "Star-Spangled Banner" just because I am not American. I can sing "Lean on Me" and chant for the Hokies in just the same way and for just the same reason. I know that the theory of natural selection is the best explanation for the emergence and development of human beings and other species. I know that our bodies are composed of flesh, bone, and blood, and cells, and molecules. I also know that this does not account for all aspects of our lives, but I know no-one who ever thought it did. That is why we have science, and novels, and friendships, and poetry, and practical jokes, and photography, and a sense of awe at the immensity of time and the planet's natural history, and walks with loved ones along the Huckleberry Trail, and atheist friends who keep kosher because, well just because, and passionate reverence for both those heroes who believed and those who did not, and have all this without needing a god to stitch together the tapestry of life. I believe this young man was both sick and vicious, that his actions were both heinous and the result of a phenomenon that we must try to understand precisely so that we can prevent it in future. I have no sympathy for him. Given what he has done, I am not particularly sorry he has spared the world his continued existence; there was no possibility of redemption for him. You think we atheists have difficulty with the concept of evil. Quite the contrary. We can accept a description of this man as evil. We just don't think that is an explanation. That is why we are exasperated at your mindless demonology. I feel humbled by the sense of composure of a family who lost someone on Monday. I will not insult that dignity by pretending there is sense to be made of this senselessness, or that there is some greater consolation to be found in the loss of a husband and son. I know my students are now more than students. You can find us next week in the bloodied classrooms of a violated campus, trying to piece our thoughts and lives and studies back together. With or without a belief in a god, with or without your asinine bigotry, we will make progress, we will breathe life back into our university, I will succeed in explaining this or that point, slowly, eventually, in a ham-handed way, at risk of tears half-way through, my students will come to feel comfortable again in a classroom with no windows or escape route, and hell yes we will prevail. You see Mr D'Souza, I am an atheist professor at Virginia Tech and a man of great faith. Not faith in your god. Faith in my people. "

http://richarddawkins.net/article,904,Dinesh-DSouza-says-I-dont-exist-an-atheist-at-Virginia-Tech,Mapantsula-Daily-Kos

4/24/2007 12:02:55 AM

im not reading that.

4/24/2007 12:03:25 AM

i stopped reading at

Quote :

"What this tells me is that if it's difficult to know where God is when bad things happen, it is even more difficult for atheism to deal with the problem of evil."

4/24/2007 12:05:03 AM

Quote :

"LET ME TELL YOU A SECRET NONE OF YOUR THOUGHTS ON RELIGION ARE RADICAL OR EVEN THOUGHT-PROVOKING IT'S NO SECRET YOU GOT THEM OFF A FUCKING WEBSITE WE'VE ALL READ THE PROSELYTIZER QUESTIONNAIRE TOO NOTHING YOU CAN SAY IS GOING TO LEND A FRESH OUTLOOK. . . ."

4/24/2007 12:36:32 AM

Quote :

"Where God is when bad things happen?"

4/24/2007 1:00:56 AM

actually this is a good article.

Richard Dawkins is both the heir to Carl Sagan, as popular proponent of scientifically based atheism, and the heir to Steven Jay Gould, for making the scientific theory to Natural Selection accessible to the intelligent layperson.

I dont know who this D'Souza is, and its not relevant. its not even important to read what he said. because he just spouts the same old tired bullshit.

But it is informative to read Dawkins' response, starting halfway down, for a well reasoned yet intensely personal insight into the ethics and morality of one of the leading proponents of atheism.

(FWIW, I'm not an atheist, so I'm not saying this because I wish to further the cause of atheist ethics)



[Edited on April 24, 2007 at 1:28 AM. Reason : ]

4/24/2007 1:23:15 AM

Graduate of Dartmouth (Phi Beta Kappa)

Quote :

"Dinesh D'Souza (born April 25, 1961 in Bombay, India) is an author and the Robert and Karen Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. D'Souza is the author of numerous New York Times best selling books and one of the most prolific and prominent conservative writers and speakers in the United States."

^ D'Souza has been well-known writer and speaker in political circles for over a decade. It just shows how ill-informed you really are.

[Edited on April 24, 2007 at 1:38 AM. Reason : .]

4/24/2007 1:38:06 AM

Perhaps atheists don't feel it necessary to exploit a national tragedy in order to push their beliefs on grieving people.

4/24/2007 1:40:14 AM

Quote :

"I dont know who this D'Souza is, and its not relevant. its not even important to read what he said. because he just spouts the same old tired bullshit. "

He's actually pretty well known, and was on The Colbert Report before. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/01/17/colbert-nails-dinesh-dsouza/

4/24/2007 2:05:39 AM

^, ^^^

oh yeah, I remember this guy now.

Hes the one who is big proponent of abstinance-based education and worked to prohibit campus distribution of birth control, published a controversial newpaper article naming a female indian student at Dartmouth for having consensual sex with some other student in order to publicly embarrass her family, and then had an extended sexual affair with Ann Coulter.

...and wasnt there something about him saying African Americans being genetically predisposed to thrive in conditions of slavery?

sorry if i dont automatically recall every batshit racist conspiracy lunatic author that hooksaw has stacked on his bedside table.





[Edited on April 24, 2007 at 2:18 AM. Reason : ]

4/24/2007 2:15:06 AM

He had an affair with Coulter? Nicccceee....

4/24/2007 2:22:47 AM

it made me throw upo in my mouth a little

4/24/2007 2:30:06 AM

I always would have assumed she would be too racist to sleep with a brown guy. But I guess her love of conservatism out-ranks that instinct.

4/24/2007 2:31:50 AM

^ specially when the brown guy hates brown(er) people

4/24/2007 2:40:16 AM

Terrible argument.

This type of schlock does nothing to further faiths of any kind.

He basically says "I don't like the conclusions science draws, therefore I reject it."

4/24/2007 6:22:50 PM

^ so, Dawkins is a "schlock" who "rejects science"

eek


[/TreeTwista10]

4/24/2007 7:14:33 PM

I think he's talking about D'Souza

4/24/2007 7:15:27 PM

4/24/2007 7:43:07 PM

4/24/2007 8:06:23 PM

Quote :

"...and wasnt there something about him saying African Americans being genetically predisposed to thrive in conditions of slavery?"

He spoke at NC State about 8 years ago. He said that every standardized test involving a uniform sample of 100 or more people of different races will always yield the same results: whites and asians first, followed by latinos and then blacks last. He then proceded to try to explain racial differences as the result of both genetic and cultural differences. It was very bell curve-esque.

The audience was pretty dumbfounded at the end of it. Especially considering the atmosphere of political correctness that pervaded mainstream politics back then.


[Edited on April 24, 2007 at 8:09 PM. Reason : 2]

4/24/2007 8:07:47 PM

yeah, he's a real forward-thinking kind of guy.

im sure the audience wasnt merely dumbfounded. they were probably sitting in the stunned silence of overwhelming awe and inspiration.

it takes a real scholar to read Herrnstein and Murray's book then go give a lecture or two on it.

i imagine this was a real formative event in your academic career?







[Edited on April 24, 2007 at 8:19 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2007 8:16:14 PM

very well written mr dawkins

d'souza....not so much

4/24/2007 9:06:52 PM

Quote :

"He spoke at NC State about 8 years ago. He said that every standardized test involving a uniform sample of 100 or more people of different races will always yield the same results: whites and asians first, followed by latinos and then blacks last."

How do white Latinos do?

4/24/2007 9:52:59 PM

4/24/2007 10:05:31 PM

Dinesh D'Souza is a douchebag

jeez

4/24/2007 10:18:21 PM

He must be from Gao

4/24/2007 11:14:13 PM

Quote :

"Survey Says...."

4/24/2007 11:27:08 PM

not reading it. but i probably agree, judging from the title

4/25/2007 12:24:07 AM

Quote :

"To no one's surprise, Dawkins has not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community. What this tells me is that if it's difficult to know where God is when bad things happen, it is even more difficult for atheism to deal with the problem of evil. The reason is that in a purely materialist universe, immaterial things like good and evil and souls simply do not exist. For scientific atheists like Dawkins, Cho's shooting of all those people can be understood in this way--molecules acting upon molecules. If this is the best that modern science has to offer us, I think we need something more than modern science."

This is moronic.

4/25/2007 12:28:47 AM

D'souza is a complete douche bag, and mostly doesn't know what he's talking about, but he kind of has a small point in that if America embraced the bass-ackwards conservative policies WRT gay marriage, sex ed, and maybe some other things, the terrorists would hate us slightly less.

The only problem is that despite the far right's crowing, the majority of Americans don't really embrace those types of policies, so not only would it be a step backwards to embrace them, it would also be un-American in a myriad of ways to do so.

4/25/2007 12:32:47 AM

youre not such a moron after all, are you?

4/25/2007 12:41:05 AM

Quote :

"[user]mrfrog"

: not reading it. but i probably agree, judging from the title[/quote]


what title? this?

Dinesh D'Souza says I don't exist: an atheist at Virginia Tech

i dont get it

4/25/2007 12:43:17 AM

Quote :

"He must be from Gao"

Goa?

4/25/2007 1:10:55 AM

. . .

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 1:47 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2007 1:39:19 AM

Quote :

"Dinesh D'Souza (born April 25, 1961 in Bombay, India) is an author and the Robert and Karen Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. D'Souza is the author of numerous New York Times best selling books and one of the most prolific and prominent conservative writers and speakers in the United States."

Quote :

"sorry if i dont automatically recall every batshit racist conspiracy lunatic author that hooksaw has stacked on his bedside table."

joe_shithead

His book's not on my "bedside table," douchebag. I was simply pointing out that D'Souza is prominent and has been for a while--whether one agrees with him or not. You are not a well-informed person, joe_shithead; you are a self-admitted left-wing shill and demonstrated liberal moonbat.

4/25/2007 1:47:08 AM

i know who he is. sorry i didnt have his name committed to memory.

i know hes a little self-righteous hypocritical race-baiting indian man who profits off the ignorance of rednecks, racists, and homophobes.

as far as academics go, he's mediocre hack. i don't care where he got his undergrad degree. being a NYT bestseller doesnt turn him into some sort of intellectual guru.

Just like his ex-fuckbuddy Ann Coulter, he merely found his niche audience, and learned how to stroke their sad egos and capitalize on their insecurities.

what do you want to hear, hook? Okay: youre a clever fellow. you can go have a cookie.

4/25/2007 2:04:48 AM

You're going to drive him crazy... being his age and not yet married, he's probably on the brink already.

4/25/2007 3:32:55 AM

Quote :

"i know hes a little self-righteous hypocritical race-baiting indian man [emphasis added] who profits off the ignorance of rednecks, racists, and homophobes."

joe_schmoe

Your ignorance in the abovementioned statement is astounding. Just look at the following:

Quote :

"Mr. D'Souza's books have had a major influence on public opinion and public policy. In 2002 he published the New York Times bestseller What’s So Great About America (Penguin Books) and in 2003 he published Letters to a Young Conservative (Basic Books). His 1991 book Illiberal Education was the first study to publicize the phenomenon of political correctness. The book was widely acclaimed and became a New York Times bestseller for 15 weeks. It has been listed as one of the most influential books of the 1990's. In 1995 D'Souza published The End of Racism, which became one of the most controversial books of the time and a national bestseller. D'Souza's 1997 book Ronald Reagan: How an Ordinary Man Became an Extraordinary Leader was the first book to make the case for Reagan's intellectual and political importance. In 2000, D'Souza published The Virtue of Prosperity: Finding Values in an Age of Techno Affluence, which explores the social and moral implications of wealth. D'Souza's articles have appeared in virtually every major magazine and newspaper, including the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic Monthly, Vanity Fair, New Republic, and National Review. He has appeared on numerous television programs, including the Today Show, Nightline, The News Hour, O'Reilly Factor, Moneyline, and Hannity and Colmes. D'Souza speaks at top universities and business groups across the country."

Quote :

"as far as academics go, he's mediocre hack. i don't care where he got his undergrad degree. being a NYT bestseller doesnt turn him into some sort of intellectual guru."

joe_schmoe

Un-fucking-believable. Check this out:

Quote :

"D’Souza is the Robert and Karen Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University [emphasis added]. D'Souza has been called one of the 'top young public-policy makers in the country' by Investor’s Business Daily. The New York Times Magazine named him one of America's most influential conservative thinkers. The World Affairs Council lists him as one of the nation's 500 leading authorities on international issues. Newsweek cited him as one of the country's most prominent Asian Americans. Before joining the Hoover Institution, Mr. D'Souza was the John M. Olin Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. In 1987-88 he served as senior policy analyst at the Reagan White House. From 1985 to 1987 he was managing editor of Policy Review. He graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Dartmouth College in 1983."

Dinesh D'Souza: New York Times' best-selling author, widely publicized writer, and respected and influential scholar--considered so even by those that disagree with him.

joe_schmoe: Internet loudmouth. . . .

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 4:50 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2007 4:45:57 AM

AHA. I busted my friend on some D'Souza shit. She had that "Letters to a Young Conservative" book of his because her mom gave it to her. And she was all, "It's really good. I would totally recommend it." And I was like, "Uhhhhhhhhh. I didn't know you were conservative...at all...?"

And then she was like, "No, it's totally like a book to young conservatives showing them how they suck..." And I looked at it and looked at it. And I saw an "endorsement" on the back that was from a Jewish guy talking shit about D'Souza. And I was thinking, "How are you going to endorse a book by saying, 'Look, the Jew guy hates it so you'll probably love it!'?"

And I was like, "Dude, I don't know about this..."

Three days later, she called me up to admit that she had finally gotten around to starting it and that she was wrong. We never addressed the fact that she had pretended to have read it or that her mother gave her the garbage in the first place.

4/25/2007 4:54:04 AM

Here's a classic quote from D'Souza:

Quote :

"You have been a longtime foe of affirmative action. What is your view of reparations? I do not favor reparations. Despite the enormous debt that African Americans owe America, I do not think it is fair to ask that blacks be asked to pay money in order to express their gratitude for American prosperity and American freedom."

http://intellectualconservative.com/article2081.html

That's good stuff.

4/25/2007 4:57:08 AM

^ Please understand: It's not that I'm a huge D'Souza fan. It's just that joe_shithead and some others are wrong about him on just about every point.

I would draw an analogy here between this D'Souza situation and the way I feel about country music. I don't really care for it--most of it doesn't really speak to me. But I wouldn't for a minute say that the country genre is not loaded with super-talented people that craft messages millions of people do like and get.

Say you don't like D'Souza--say you disagree with him. But don't say he's an unintelligent hack--it just ain't so.

PS: Were you in Ruckus tonight?

4/25/2007 5:07:44 AM

words. summary?

4/25/2007 9:22:46 AM

^^^Wow. SUPER DOUCHE.

Quote :

"Perhaps atheists don't feel it necessary to exploit a national tragedy in order to push their beliefs on grieving people."

winner

Does anyone here actually agree with D'Souza on this?

4/25/2007 10:58:13 AM

Quote :

"Notice something interesting about the aftermath of the Virginia Tech shootings? Atheists are nowhere to be found."

What are we supposed to do? Express our condolences and then mention that gods don't exist?

Quote :

"If this is the best that modern science has to offer us, I think we need something more than modern science."

It's pointless to argue with people that consider comfort to be higher than reason anyways.

Quote :

"Mr. D'Souza's books have had a major influence on public opinion and public policy."

Most people are stupid.

4/25/2007 11:22:01 AM

i do

4/25/2007 12:33:48 PM

aha match-game era richard dawson

4/25/2007 12:57:02 PM

Quote :

"Most people are stupid."

4/25/2007 1:00:22 PM

Quote :

"Most people are stupid."

Quote :

"Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe."

Supposedly A. Einstein, but it could just be one of those crappy intarweb quotes.

4/25/2007 1:37:57 PM

Quote :

"don't say he's an unintelligent hack"

i never said that.

he *is* intelligent.

but his hackiness only rises to the level of mediocrity.

i mean, seriously. just read his bullshit. his intended audience are fools and bigots.

4/25/2007 6:26:24 PM

^

Quote :

"as far as academics go, he's mediocre hack. i don't care where he got his undergrad degree. being a NYT bestseller doesnt turn him into some sort of intellectual guru."

joe_schmoe

Clearly, your quotation has implications concerning D'Souza's intelligence. I mean, are you saying he's mediocre at "renounc[ing] or surrender[ing] [his] individual independence, integrity, belief, etc., in return for money or other reward in the performance of a task normally thought of as involving a strong personal commitment: a political hack"? Or are you saying D'Souza's of mediocre intelligence and he's a hack?

4/25/2007 9:37:58 PM