Quote :

"NEW YORK – A prominent Christian best-selling author is asserting that he can prove the existence of God without using the Bible, and has challenged two atheists to a debate. Ray Comfort, author of God Doesn't Believe in Atheists, alongside fellow Christian and actor Kirk Cameron (Growing Pains) will butt heads with two ardent nonbelievers using only scientific fact in a debate sponsored by ABC. Comfort says that the evidence will “absolutely” confirm that there is a God, and he will not speak about his faith. "Most people equate atheism with intellectualism," explained Comfort in a statement, "but it's actually an intellectual embarrassment. I am amazed at how many people think that God's existence is a matter of faith. It's not, and I will prove it at the debate – once and for all. This is not a joke. I will present undeniable scientific proof that God exists.”"

Quote :

"Cameron will use the event to also speak out against evolution, which he thinks is not credible and a major contributor to the growth in atheism."

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070429/27149_Evangelist_Challenges_Atheists_to_Bible-Less_Debate.htm

Jesus Christ, this'll be funny. ABC.com will have the full debate on May 5th, and excerpts will appear on Nightline. I think that even most non-retarded religious people would agree that scientifically proving the existence of God is entirely impossible. It's a matter of faith...I can't figure out why this guy insists that it's not.

4/30/2007 12:59:42 PM

The fact that he has Kirk "i know god exists because bananas fit in my hand" Cameron as a sidekick really underscores the absurdity of this.....

4/30/2007 1:08:09 PM

The notion of a benevolent god was finally disproved when Crazy Frog first came out the summer before last.

4/30/2007 1:15:40 PM

I'm very curious as to what this "proof" is that he claims to have.

Not that I think it could be genuine, but from the article he seems awfully sure of himself.

4/30/2007 1:41:13 PM

why, it's a banana, of course

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akc5w_ZqByY

of course, it's not like this needs to be debunked, but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLqQttJinjo

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 1:44:19 PM

I'm looking forward to some good old-fashioned sophistry and specious arguments from these guys.

4/30/2007 1:47:42 PM

Surely a similar debate has never been attempted. Otherwise we'd have the definitive outcome.

4/30/2007 1:48:32 PM

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy"

- Ben Franklin

fuck a banana theory.

4/30/2007 1:49:39 PM

Why does this guy even feel the need to have to prove God's existence? I thought it really was a matter of faith. Afterall, doesn't God reward the faithful and punish the non-believers? So isn't this guy actually saying he has no faith by attempting to prove God's existence?

Oh wait, I forgot. It's too much to ask the super-religious to be logical or consistent in their thought processes or their "faith."

4/30/2007 1:50:42 PM

seriously, those people are fucking nuts.

There's really nothing mutually exclusive about creationism and evolution. Genesis doesn't get into how God created everything. he could have wiggled his ears or pointed and shouted, or ate some spicy indian food where the ensuing flatulence caused the big bang, and set a series of events into motion that ultimately manifested into a bunch of people posting on a website.

4/30/2007 1:56:21 PM

that bananna thing is hillarious

pineapples must be proof that god was a dick

4/30/2007 1:59:45 PM

You know, Bobby, I used to say that they were compatible. However, I don't think that's true anymore. They can be compatible in some ways - but only if genesis is taken extremely metaphorically, since it says that the universe was created in 7 days, there's a firmament above the earth, Eve came from Adam's rib (or was created instantaneously at the same time as Adam, depending on which part of Genesis), etc.

And, as I've pointed out a gazillion times, if you're willing to take Genesis SO metaphorically, why believe any of it? There's almost nothing in Genesis that can be proven to be true, minus perhaps a few historical points.

4/30/2007 1:59:47 PM

not all christians read genesis literally, only evangelicals. in my denomination you call on your reason and tradition to listen to the holy spirit as you read scripture. the bible is not the word of god, but the reading and understanding and interpreting of the bible is the word of god. as i read genesis i recognize it as a metaphorical writing that draws on many much older creation stories because i am calling on my reason and experience as i read.

4/30/2007 2:15:57 PM

I put genesis and most of the old testament in the realm of a collection of parables with some historical and theological basis and context.

That's just my personal belief. I think, for the most part, being that what's in the bible has been re-told, written down, and translated by humans over thousands of years, things have been fucked up-- especially during the times prior to being written down.

4/30/2007 2:15:58 PM

Quote :

"pineapples must be proof that god was a dick"

Exactly. And what about other shit like oranges? Having to peel off that thick covering can be pretty annoying. Or those stupid cherry pits?

Ignoring for a minute that the current form of the banana is the end-result of human-induced cultivation, how does this guy explain all this other stuff? He takes one "outlier" and acts as if that's the end-all be-all, when there's tons of evidence that flies in the face of what he asserts. I just think it's dumb that people such as this cherry-pick the stuff that they believe supports their claims, just like they pick-and-choose which portions of the bible are "true."

4/30/2007 2:20:03 PM

Haha, he's going to pick two "atheists"? Why doesn't he pick two philosophy professors from Yale or something to debate. I'm sure they could destroy him and KIRK EFFING CAMERON in just about any intellectual discourse, regardless of the topic.

4/30/2007 2:20:08 PM

A quote from Kirk Cameron in the article:

Quote :

"Evolution is unscientific. In reality, it is a blind faith that's preached with religious zeal as the gospel truth. I'm embarrassed to admit that I was once a naïve believer in the theory,” said the former television star in a statement. “Atheism has become very popular in universities – where it's taught that we evolved from animals and that there are no moral absolutes. So we shouldn't be surprised when there are school shootings."

4/30/2007 2:30:10 PM

hahah

WOW. nice work KIRK. you fucking fuck

teach evolution and you're school will be shot up!

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 2:33 PM. Reason : ,]

4/30/2007 2:32:54 PM

Maybe he's right and that the theory of evolution is flawed.

If it worked, dumbasses like him would have been killed off a long time ago.

4/30/2007 2:36:33 PM

Well, while we are at it, why don't we get Willie Aames, the guy who played "Buddy" on Charles and Charge to dress up in his Bibleman character and make this thing as ridiculous as possible!



[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 2:52 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 2:51:46 PM

Obviously those of you who say only evangelicals believe in a true, literal interpretation and that the bible was written by man and copied over by man, thereby diluting it, are right. But, who decides what is metaphor and what is not? guth says

Quote :

"in my denomination you call on your reason and tradition to listen to the holy spirit as you read scripture"

Obviously I don't believe in the holy spirit, but I find it hard to believe in such a thing since the holy spirit has obviously imparted different ideas about what is and is not true to different people who read the bible "with the help of the holy spirit."

That being the case, either the holy spirit doesn't exist, is a liar, or has only imparted the truth to one or a few people. Then, we have the same problem - how do we know which of those is the truth, and if the spirit has only told a few people the truth, how do we know which people?

Quote :

"I think, for the most part, being that what's in the bible has been re-told, written down, and translated by humans over thousands of years, things have been fucked up-- especially during the times prior to being written down."

But do you think any of it is true? And if so, which parts? The parts that seem the most true to you, right?

Quote :

" If it worked, dumbasses like him would have been killed off a long time ago."

One of the many unfortunately side effects of civilization is that it allows idiots to reproduce.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 2:55 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 2:53:16 PM

I was being facetious, but you are essentially correct.

4/30/2007 2:57:39 PM

OH, I mean obviously you were just making fun of Cameron I was adding to your fun-making

4/30/2007 3:16:27 PM

Quote :

"The notion of a benevolent god was finally disproved when Crazy Frog first came out the summer before last."

w00t

4/30/2007 3:20:46 PM

Quote :

"That being the case, either the holy spirit doesn't exist, is a liar, or has only imparted the truth to one or a few people. Then, we have the same problem - how do we know which of those is the truth, and if the spirit has only told a few people the truth, how do we know which people?"

faith

but i have the benefit of not having to convert everyone, im called to let people know about God but it is up to them to take anywhere after that. It must really suck being an evangelical and having to convert everyone and always stressing on making sure everyone knows that your interpretation is right. for the rest of us though, theres not really much reason to dwell on it. i too question my faith, i have a lot of the same questions you do, and it is by questioning this and talking about it with others and seeking counsel from people who know more about it that my faith is tempered and becomes even stronger.

i think its silly to think that anyone can ever prove that God does or does not exist, but what the hell is the point? what would it accomplish? This might be important for an evangelical but its really not at all for me.

4/30/2007 3:33:02 PM

just because faith is involved in believing in God, doesn't mean that there isn't evidence that points to the existence of God. that being said, i don't think there is a way to prove God exists. just like i don't believe there is a way to prove God doesn't exist. i could say the civil war never happened and no one could prove/disprove that either.

i'm curious as to the argument on both sides though.

4/30/2007 3:37:03 PM

Quote :

"But do you think any of it is true? And if so, which parts?"

from a historical perspective, I don't know how much, if any of it is true. Most of those question marks really aren't important. What does it matter if the earth was created in 7 calendar days or millions of years? Did it really rain for 40 days and 40 nights? Did jews get lost for 40 years? Did a midget named david kill a giant with a sling shot? Who cares?

The important things are Christ's teachings. I'm no biblical scholar by any means, but piece by piece I've collectively read all of it over the years, and I don't disagree with any of Christ's teachings. I regard the new testament as a good moral guide and a poor history book.

Most of the fucked up things that Christians do are not inherent to christianity, but the way people see what they want to believe in order to justify violence, stealing, bigotry, hatred, and generally being a dick out of moral high horsery. The VT shootings are God's way of punishing atheists? Oh really, did he tell you that?

But sadly, people are stupid and fall for this kind of shit. And you have the people that protest the funerals of soldiers, or harass homosexuals. Ideologically, they're no different from the muslims who fly airplanes into buildings or strap dynamite onto their bodies and blow themselves up in a crowded market. They just have different M.O.s

4/30/2007 3:39:46 PM

youve read the entire bible and you dont recognize that parts of it are nothing more than a historical account? lots of things in the bible are historically accurate.

to people that havent read the bible and only have their idea of what it says: its not all "religious"

Quote :

"Ideologically, they're no different from the muslims who fly airplanes into buildings or strap dynamite onto their bodies and blow themselves up in a crowded market. They just have different M.O.s"

yeah. have you seen jesus camp? those people are fucking nuts.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 3:44 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 3:43:19 PM

I too agree with the tenets of Christianity and find that many people have strayed from these ideals, particularly in regards to environmentalism and poverty. I don't see why so many people put their faith into televangelists and charlatans... you can go on I-Tunes and download some very good stuff from the Duke Chapel. I would rather listen to some brilliant, well researched minister and scholar than Joe Sixpack with an online degree and a tv show.

4/30/2007 3:47:03 PM

duke has some awesome sermons, i try to catch them on the radio or make it over there as much as possible

4/30/2007 4:00:45 PM

Wait wait wait....ABC?


What Fox was too busy or something on a Saturday? I mean this retarded debtate sounds right up Fox's alley.

Anyways, here's a non news/important moral topic being sponsored by those that wish to see it stay in the public's mind. This perhaps be the largest waste of time ever.

Quote :

"Atheism has become very popular in universities – where it's taught that we evolved from animals and that there are no moral absolutes. So we shouldn't be surprised when there are school shootings."

Evolution is taught to all kids in college? And thus there is this huge surge of Atheism clubs?

Last time I checked, Campus Crusade for Chirst did not miss the recuiting goals

4/30/2007 4:04:54 PM

this should be interesting.

4/30/2007 4:19:57 PM

Quote :

"...it's taught that we evolved from animals and that there are no moral absolutes."

I fail to see what evolution has to do with moral code. But that aside, so what if atheists don't teach "absolutes?" There are some things that I'm sure everyone can agree on, such as killing is bad. But even that's not absolute, because some people believe that killing is okay as long as it's in self-defense, while some believe that killing is always wrong. There are some things in life that you necessarily have to take on a case-by-case basis. Why? Because life is full of lots of complex, interacting factors. There's rarely a simple answer to every problem.

Why to religious types have to make everything "certain" or "absolute?" Are they afraid that if, say, murder isn't absolutely wrong, then people will exploit loopholes to murder whenever they want? But if everyone can already agree that unprovoked killing is wrong, then why do we need to tell ourselves that the only thing keeping us from refusing to observe that fact is a deity? People who say that all morality flows from a holy book are basically saying "if it wasn't for the fact that it's against my religion, I'd go around murdering and raping." Which would make me want to avoid that person real quick.

4/30/2007 4:28:08 PM

Quote :

"youve read the entire bible and you dont recognize that parts of it are nothing more than a historical account? lots of things in the bible are historically accurate. "

I do recognize what they purport to be. I don't necessarily believe them as accurate. Ultimately, I don't really care. Like I said, whether or not the events transpired as they are written doesn't change my morals.

4/30/2007 4:45:13 PM

^^ because only sith deal in absolutes.

4/30/2007 4:54:38 PM

Quote :

"could say the civil war never happened and no one could prove/disprove that either."

Let me start with this one, just so that I can point out how absolutely ABSURD it is. Up until not terribly long ago, there were first-hand accounts of the civil war from people who lived through it. We have evidence - in the form of battlefields, shells, rifles, dead people... the list goes on. NOTHING of that sort exists in regard to the bible.

Quote :

"What does it matter if the earth was created in 7 calendar days or millions of years? Did it really rain for 40 days and 40 nights? Did jews get lost for 40 years? Did a midget named david kill a giant with a sling shot? Who cares?"

What does it matter? Don't you work on network equipment? What if I said "what does it matter if the TCP/IP protocol is correct? So what if Cisco's routers don't accurately take those protocols into account? I mean, it matters 100% how old the universe is, and it especially matters if we tell our children things that are blatantly false and they build there lives on those things. How can you possibly ask why it matters? Does it matter about David and Goliath? Not as much, certainly, but the questions in regard to science matter A LOT if we are to take our scientific worldview seriously at all.

Quote :

"The important things are Christ's teachings."

To this, I ask the same question. Which of christ's teachings? The ones that no man who keeps his family and wife shall be worthy of following christ? Or:

Luke 19:27
'"As for my enemies who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and slaughter them in front of me."'

or
Mark 4:11-12
'But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.' 'Otherwise they might change their ways and be forgiven.'

Quote :

"Most of the fucked up things that Christians do are not inherent to christianity, but the way people see what they want to believe in order to justify violence, stealing, bigotry, hatred, and generally being a dick out of moral high horsery"

I'd say this is partially true, but also partially not. Same with muslim extremists. Sure, some of them are just crazy, but some are taking the MANY fucked up teachings of the bible and the weird and offensive stuff it contains and making it reality.

I mean, if you're saying you get your morals from the bible, I can show you tons of things in the bible (and I know you already know those exist) that absolutely would NOT reflect your morals. Why? Because morals change throughout time and location. You agree with some of them because you would with or without the bible. You're a decent person, and you've evolved from a species that had to remain descent for the most part if it wanted to survive. The human race has done some fucked up things, but it's survived and worked as a team throughout its history. IF it hadn't, it wouldn't exist.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 4:59 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 4:55:44 PM

I want to believe the atheists, but we're talking about Kirk Cameron here. This is almost as difficult as that time John Edwards and Jon Bon Jovi toured together. A vote for Republicans was like a vote against Bon Jovi and I just can't do that.

4/30/2007 5:52:56 PM

Any word on who these two "atheists" will be? Surely not somebody as well-spoken as Richard Dawkins. I wouldn't be surprised if they just picked up a couple of random people off the street.

4/30/2007 6:33:03 PM

Quote :

"pineapples must be proof that god was a dick"

hhahaha FTW

4/30/2007 6:35:45 PM

Quote :

"To this, I ask the same question. Which of christ's teachings? The ones that no man who keeps his family and wife shall be worthy of following christ? Or: Luke 19:27 '"As for my enemies who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and slaughter them in front of me."'"

this is my favorite type of critic, the bible verse critic. the bible is not a book of verses, perhaps one of the worst things they did was insert little numbers in there. if you have actually read Luke 19 you would know that the verse is part of a parable and verse 27 is what the noble man who wants to be king is saying. jesus is not telling you to kill people in front of him.

4/30/2007 7:32:50 PM

Actually, I remember reading in the book "A Case for Christ", it was pretty much a non-Bible based search for the truth behind Jesus Christ (and hence God one could say). I remember one guy in there said he debated atheists for fun, usually won, and even had some atheists in the audience come up to him and say "you changed my mind".

I don't think this guy will do as bad as the original person says. Besides, if he's the one challenging I'm sure he has his argument lined up.

As far as his "proof", one thing he could use is the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang Theory was actually a theory once used by the Catholic Church to prove the existance of God (and developed by a Belgian Roman Catholic priest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ). Science cannot account for what happened at time zero, or the beginning of the universe, and alongside other God-based beliefs that were present in the theory at the time it was created, this time zero was used to show God's existance, that there had to be an "outside interference" that started the universe.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 7:46 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 7:41:54 PM

Quote :

"if you have actually read Luke 19 you would know that the verse is part of a parable and verse 27 is what the noble man who wants to be king is saying. jesus is not telling you to kill people in front of him."

are you KIDDING me? Do you really think I don't know that? The point is, this is how the parable ends. The point of Jesus's parable was that this is the end result if you don't act as you should. I'm not an idiot - I HAVE read the scriptures. I would be a complete retard to try and quote them if I hadn't. I went to church and sunday school and read the bible quite a lot as an adolescent/teenager. Hell, the bible is one of the reasons I'm no longer a christian.

4/30/2007 10:07:45 PM

Quote :

"I mean, if you're saying you get your morals from the bible, I can show you tons of things in the bible (and I know you already know those exist) that absolutely would NOT reflect your morals."

No, you can't.

5/1/2007 12:09:37 AM

I wonder if this guy is invited

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=475034

5/1/2007 12:39:10 AM

I don't really care I just like stirring things up, sure theres WAAAAAAAAY more but I'm to lazy

Quote :

""[The Jews] both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets,and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." 1 Thessalonians 2:15"

Antisemitism

Quote :

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God" (Deuteronomy 22:5)"

Women can't wear pants

Quote :

""When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seeth among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and remain in thine house . . . And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her" (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)"

Yeah thats a great way to treat a lady

Quote :

""Censuses are immoral - and God killed 70,000 innocent counted Jews to punish David for counting them... "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel, And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. . . . And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. . . . So the Lord sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men" (1 Chronicles 21:1-14)."

Counting BAD!

5/1/2007 12:43:14 AM

Quote :

""[The Jews] both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets,and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." 1 Thessalonians 2:15""

How is this anti-semitic? The man who wrote this was a Jew! So, quite obviously, he is not advocating hatred of all Jews simply because they are Jewish. This is also the same man who said in Romans 9 that he would wish himself to be cursed eternally if it would save his countrymen, the Jews. He is calling them out on those actions, and it IS a fair characterization of them, as a group, at that time. But it does not lump the entire race/people together. It speaks of their general trend, their leadership, and their history as a whole.

Quote :

"Women can't wear pants"

That's not what it says. It says that women should wear clothing that is feminine, and men should wear clothing that is masculine. It decries a culture that would obscure a differentiation in the sexes.

Quote :

""When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seeth among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and remain in thine house . . . And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her" (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)""

I have no issue with the first part.

Christ explained later that the ease of divorce in the Old Testament law was a concession to hardness in people's hearts.

Quote :

"Counting BAD!"

Except God Himself in a number of other passages in the Pentateuch commanded that a census be taken. The problem here, it appears, is that the proper payment was not made for that census, as was commanded earlier..

5/1/2007 1:15:16 AM

Quote :

"""When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seeth among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and remain in thine house . . . And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her" (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)"" I have no issue with the first part. "

You have no issue with soldiers basically kidnapping (and possibly raping) women as spoils of war (what's the deal with shaving the head?)?

5/1/2007 1:26:37 AM

It's not raping and it's not kidnapping, as both of those crimes carry the death penalty, in the Old Testament Law....it's taking one as a wife.

A shaved head is a sign of defeat

5/1/2007 5:55:48 AM

leave it to tww to have a bible debate in a thread about a bibleless debate.

5/1/2007 8:29:45 AM

hahahaha, im sure when guys in the olden days took women prisoners for wives, they asked for their consent. They didn't just pick the nicest ones and fuck them silly whether they liked it or not. It's not like marriage was not a holy union.

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 9:41 AM. Reason : sdf]

5/1/2007 9:41:42 AM