Lets discuss the cult status of these two establishments here. I really don't know anything about them. will someone start us off with a description of them?

5/1/2007 12:42:36 PM

THIS IS SPARTAAAAA

5/1/2007 12:57:22 PM

The two have absolutely NOTHING in common.

Grace Community is an extremely contemporary non-denominational church near Triangle Town Center. They have a huge youth group that all the preppy/ popular North Raleigh/ Wakefield Kids go to. I've heard their church criticized for being too casual and not serious enough, but they are not even remotely close to Triangle Church.

As for Triangle Church, they can not have an official presence on State's campus. They were banned from forming official student organizations several years ago because their student members and staff stalked students. There were enough instances of restraining orders against Triangle Churchers on campus that the university gave them the boot. That is why they have to have Bible studies at UT and anytime they meet with someone in Talley, they can't reserve a meeting room ahead of time.




Google ICOC or International Church of Christ to find out more about the larger movement behind Triangle Church.

To make things fair, I will say that the ICOC's leader was forced to step down a few years ago and there were some (minor) changes. Some individual churches changed drastically, others stuck to their original bizarro theology and coercive recruitment tactics. Triangle Church, from what I've heard, has made some changes. But I would still avoid it like the plague.

I stand corrected, they have a campus group now. It must be fairly new.
http://www.ncsu.edu/sorc/myOrgs/details.php?id=668

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 1:39 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2007 1:32:59 PM

^ Again, more opinions and rumors. There were no such "restraining" orders on people "stalking". Atleast none that I've ever seen. Mostly complaints and gripes to the Student Union and University about the members being pushy and annoying (explained below).

Don't know much about Grace Community, but most people I know from there seem like they have their heads on straight.

With Triangle Church, since about 2002 it's gone through a lot of changes. Before then, they belonged to a group of churches called the ICOC (International Church of Christ). The ICOC broke up around 2002-2003. There are a gazillion sites on the ICOC. Some are full of it, some are pretty on point. Wikipedia has a good article on the ICOC. From what I read, seems like a lot of churches that want to group back together.

In any case, the Triangle Church is NOT associated with those churches anymore. Just your "back to the basics" kind of church. Lots of bible studies and meeting up in small groups to build community. Trust me, go visit the church on Sunday's and see for yourself. 1000 Perimeter Park, Morrisville, right off of Airport Blvd.

How do I know all this? I attend the Triangle Church (attended since 2000). PM me if you have serious questions/concerns. Just realize that I won't reply back if you're going to gripe/whine/flame/hate/joke. I know a lot of people had issues with the church a while back ago, but I'm not one to be critical.

There were definately problems. Leaders abused powers. Made up silly rules that weren't really talked about in the bible. Heavily inforced church growth (hence, the blown out of proportion remarks about "stalking"... because everyone was expected to bring someone out to church on Sunday, otherwise you were not being a good disciple of Christ). But, I think the biggest problem was "legalism". Members did stuff just because someone told or asked them to do it. I know for myself that I made every decision on my own out of my own free will. Others felt like they were forced or "brainwashed" into doing things. I think those are just excuses for them being weak on their convictions/faith/beliefs. If you look at the life of Christ, it wasn't an easy cake walk. Christianity involves more than following rules, that's where a lot of the leaders lost their cool.

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 2:00 PM. Reason : ]

5/1/2007 1:52:29 PM

Quote :

"But, I think the biggest problem was "legalism". Members did stuff just because someone told or asked them to do it. I know for myself that I made every decision on my own out of my own free will. Others felt like they were forced or "brainwashed" into doing things. I think those are just excuses for them being weak on their convictions/faith/beliefs."

So do you think that the problems are caused by members themselves and not flaws in the way the church operates? Also, would it be better to A) disobey something because I didn't feel convicted about it, or B) just do it because I was told to, even though felt it wasn't necessary to do? Also, why did the ICOC break up?

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 2:08 PM. Reason : ,]

5/1/2007 2:06:55 PM

^^Rolling eyes isn't very Christlike. There were restraining orders, quit lying. Your church WAS a cult. I went a few times in 2001. The least you and other members could do is admit you were wrong. Whether or not it is different now is another discussion. But I'm not going to go back to find out.

Write another essay and my feelings will still be the same. All you did was insult my credibility, act sarcastic and deny that anything significant was wrong with your church. This is exactly what I've come to expect from Triangle members.

You've got to learn not to take it personally. I was only stating the facts. Whether or not you are willing to admit to it, there were serious issues at Triangle.


I'd also like to add that ICOC churches were banned from campuses all over the country. Just google ICOC or ICC and 99% of the results are sites critical of the church's practices.


[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 2:13 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2007 2:11:19 PM

Quote :

"So do you think that the problems are caused by members themselves and not flaws in the way the church operates? "

No, the problems WERE NOT caused soley by the members. Did you read my post? I said the leaders were abusing powers. At the beginning, when the original ICOC church was still small, everything was fine and dandy. Eventually, the ICOC churches were operated very much like a coporate business. With this "Kip McCean" character as some great CEO guy. Btw, I never even knew what he looked like or nor did I care until the church actually started breaking up.

So, to say that it was the member's fault is not fair. But, it was also the members that eventually stood up to this ICOC mentality. So, in a sense it was their fault. But, not their fault as well.

Quote :

"Also, would it be better to A) disobey something because I didn't feel convicted about it, or B) just do it because I was told to, even though felt it wasn't necessary to do?"

To the normal human being, it's better to do it because you were told to, even if you feel like it was not necessary or over the top. That's just human nature.

Quote :

" Also, why did the ICOC break up?"

Again, back to my post. The "leaders" of the ICOC fell apart. Members started to think and stand up for themselves. Groups of members from the churches said, "Hey, why are we doing this again? This is not what my Bible tells me. Hey, you're actually wrong. And this is why -> (points to particular scripture in the bible)." There was this 15 page article/paper written to the "main" leaders of the movement...

And that's how it all fell apart. Kip Mccean, left the church in 2002. A whole lot of restructuring occurred between 2003-2004. And then many churches withdrew from their ICOC affiliation. Triangle Church being one of them. We still have many relationships with other members and churches from around the world, but the Triangle church is an individual church now. Back then we had a sister church that we planted in Africa. We still help them to this day. We support them financially and they support us spiritually (they have a lot more to be grateful for than those of us living in America, thus their dependancy of God is higher and their spiritual wealth is higher as well)

5/1/2007 2:29:07 PM

Quote :

"No, the problems WERE NOT caused soley by the members. Did you read my post?"

You said the "biggest problem" was the members, that's why I asked. I'm not trying to be accusitory, just asking questions. I think this is an interesting topic.

5/1/2007 2:44:13 PM

Quote :

"Rolling eyes isn't very Christlike"

grow up

my thoughts from the other thread, which have pretty much been covered here too

Quote :

"fyi, for triangle church, they are not really a cult anymore. i have many friends who used to go there and the church had a crisis of identity a few years ago when they realized what they were doing. there's still a few people with that mentality, and the ICOC, the organization to which triangle belonged, still is pretty sketch, but triangle itself is not so bad anymore. now, i wouldn't recommend any new people look to go to triangle church yet, but the people who go there now, no need to think of them as cult weirdos"

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 2:53 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2007 2:51:47 PM

Quote :

"^^Rolling eyes isn't very Christlike. There were restraining orders, quit lying. Your church WAS a cult. I went a few times in 2001. The least you and other members could do is admit you were wrong. Whether or not it is different now is another discussion. But I'm not going to go back to find out."

Someone sounds a little bitter. Rolling eyes was not directed towards your post. It was directed at my comment about the leaders losing their cool. I apologize for anything that may have cause you pain/hurt. But, I will not apologize for the church. I'm not here to defend the church. Just trying to point out the current facts from an insider, so that no one gets all tied up in knots about this.

Personally, I never heard of any restraining orders whatsoever when I was at State. I could be absolutely wrong. Again, that could be because the ministry leaders kept those "secret" from members. That was their mentality. Get the members to work like army ants and bring in more church members. I'm not arguing your point, I'm giving my point of view.

You should read the post more thoroughly. Again, I apologize for anything that we did that may have hurt or cause you pain. But, I'm not here to defend anyone. I honestly believe what I was doing back then was a good thing. Going out and getting on someone's back about Jesus is honestly what the Bible preaches to us. If someone doesn't believe that rapidly spreading the word of God is crucial to discipleship, then they shouldn't claim to be a Christian.

Quote :

" Write another essay and my feelings will still be the same. All you did was insult my credibility, act sarcastic and deny that anything significant was wrong with your church. This is exactly what I've come to expect from Triangle members. You've got to learn not to take it personally. I was only stating the facts. Whether or not you are willing to admit to it, there were serious issues at Triangle. I'd also like to add that ICOC churches were banned from campuses all over the country. Just google ICOC or ICC and 99% of the results are sites critical of the church's practices."

Again, I'm not sure if you read the post, but I did not deny anything being wrong with the church. I admitted everything. Not sure what point you are trying to get at.

Yes, ICOC churches were ALWAYS banned from campuses. We knew that. We didn't know if it was because of "restraining" orders or what. We assumed it was because of the "recruiting" practices. We didn't see it as a recruiting practice though, we saw it as being radical for Christ. I don't believe the ICOC was banned because of anything serious other than being a nuisance or annoyance. I just don't want you to go around giving people the wrong impression. No, you will not turn to stone if you look me in my eyes. Don't be so paranoid. I'm a normal human being just like you. And I have feelings just like you. And they were hurt in the same exact way when the actions of the leaders of the church came into light. We are all causualties of the evil heart in man. Even more so, we usually become the causualties of our own hearts.

[Edited on May 1, 2007 at 3:00 PM. Reason : ]

5/1/2007 2:57:18 PM

This is the Grace church that meets on campus:
http://www.ncsu.edu/sorc/myOrgs/details.php?id=611
I don't think they have anything to do with Grace Community in North Raleigh.

Anyway the grace on campus seemed like a normal church the time I went, other than the fact that they met in a big classroom.

5/1/2007 6:08:55 PM

I am going to bite my tongue on this subject.

5/1/2007 6:12:02 PM

I've been to Grace once. They were pretty chill. Then I always slept past 9:30 on a Sunday so I never went again

5/1/2007 6:36:29 PM

The grace people are odd. I have some friends in there.

5/1/2007 6:42:43 PM

^lol

5/1/2007 6:56:32 PM

i think a lot of you evangelical Christians are pretty cultish.

but hey, at least youre not Scientologists. Or Mormons.

5/2/2007 1:42:29 AM

ive never heard anyone call grace a cult, but triangle is

other people to stay away from:
mormons
christ. scientists
scientologists

5/2/2007 1:30:12 PM

PEOPLE. TRIANGLE IS NO LONGER A CULT

the whole church imploded a few years ago and now they operate as their own church, not under the control of the ICOC. i'm not trying to defend the church per se, but please don't think that just b/c somebody you know or meet goes there, that they are a cult weirdo.

5/2/2007 1:34:37 PM

NO LONGER a cult? Once a cult, I'd be wary of checking it out.

5/2/2007 2:01:51 PM

why is that so hard to believe? from what i've heard, like over 50% of the people left, including many of the leaders. people change man, don't discriminate based on what used to be.

5/2/2007 2:24:30 PM

Quote :

"Frank: Wait. Is this the group that goes around mutilating squirrels? George: No it’s a regular religion. Frank: I’m calling my lawyer. It might not be too late to get out of this. George: I don’t want to get out of it. Estelle: George, you don’t know what you’re saying. You’re under their control. Frank: What, they brainwashed you? George: No no. Frank: You’re not performing any rituals in this house. Estelle: Go back to the psychiatrist. I beg you. Frank: And stay away from those squirrels. "

[Edited on May 2, 2007 at 3:03 PM. Reason : rt]

5/2/2007 3:02:29 PM

you're all blasphemers anyways, you're not Roman Catholic

5/3/2007 2:04:34 PM

Quote :

"PEOPLE. TRIANGLE IS NO LONGER A CULT "

bullshit, if they were really concerned with not being a cult they would have completely disbanded and chosen a new name. that they havent even tried to get a new name to escape their stigma shows that they are comfortable with their image and have no real desire to operate differently.

5/3/2007 8:14:19 PM

I'd like to know where the line is drawn between religion and cult, personally. I'm sure triangle is a cult in the "accepted" definition, but all churches are cults in the true definition. The word itself used to mean religious practice. The word cult now usually is defined, except by those who exaggerate the definition, as a group of people who share religious or faith-based systems of living that go against society's norms. When christianity started, it was a cult. The same goes for every other religion.

5/3/2007 9:13:28 PM

just turn off your internet

5/3/2007 9:51:31 PM

Quote :

"they would have completely disbanded and chosen a new name"

and if they had changed their name you would say "they just want to pretend they never hurt people"

i think that by keeping the name, they are willing to confront their image and work to show that what they do today is a true reflection of their heart, and that they aren't just running away. of course, i don't know why they decided to keep the name or if that was ever a discussion. it just seems you want to hate them without even knowing who they are or what they are doing today

5/3/2007 9:57:04 PM

i know all about them and have friends who were emotionally assaulted by this group and who were told to stop hanging out with their friends

5/3/2007 10:06:20 PM

yeah, so do i. but that was a few years ago. things change.

5/3/2007 10:10:53 PM

^He is talking about me and a lot of the people that we associate with.
I was very hurt by a lot of things that people said and did to me, but I have gotten over it and let me tell you, I went to that church for 13 years and I was really tore up in my heart by some people.

I think it was completely a hierarchical chain of leadership and what human being does not go a little crazy when they get big headed? The thing is people change and get over things. That is the beautiful thing about God. He does not let that kind of stuff to continue and God def meets people where they are at, even if someone is spouting blasphemous rhetoric. That church fell apart and that is the bottom line. There is a time for repentance and I think that is another aspect of God that is beautiful, he allows change and forgets the transgressions of those who follow him.

Speaking of cult like, the question I would like to know is how many people who claim to be Christians would follow Jesus if he were to come around today and ask people to follow him?
There is so much about any kind of organized religion that comes across as cultish. Anytime a bunch people get together with a same belief system, they end up coming off as weirdos.

[/thread]

5/3/2007 10:23:11 PM

DirtyGreek: I'd like to know where the line is drawn between religion and cult


Defining traits of cults

Quote :

" A group or movement exhibiting great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing, and employing unethical manipulative or coercive techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it), designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families or the community. -- Journal of Cultic Studies 3:1 (1986) "

Quote :

" "1. Members are expected to be excessively zealous and unquestioning in their commitment to the identity and leadership of the group. They must replace their own beliefs and values with those of the group. 2. Members are manipulated and exploited, and may give up their education, careers and families to work excessively long hours at group-directed tasks such as selling a quota of candy or books, fund-raising, recruiting and proselytizing. 3. Harm or the threat of harm may come to members, their families, and/ or society due to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, psychological and physical abuse, sleep deprivation, criminal activities and so forth. --Langone, M. (1988) from the American Family Foundation's Cults: Questions and Answers "

Quote :

" 1. Controlling an individual’s social and psychological environment, especially the person’s time. 2. Placing an individual in a position of powerlessness within a high-control authoritarian system. 3. Relying usually on a closed system of logic, which permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by executive order. 4. Relying on unsophistication of the person being manipulated (that is, the person is unaware of the process), and he or she is pressed to adapt to the environment in increments that are sufficiently minor so that the person does not notice changes. 5. Eroding the confidence of a person’s perceptions. 6. Manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences to promote new learning or inhibit undesired previous behaviour. Punishments are usually social ones, for example, shunning, social isolation, and humiliation (which are more effective in producing wanted behaviour than beatings and death threats, although these do occur)" --Singer, Margaret (1987) from Merck Manual of Diagnostics and Therapy "

[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 1:16 AM. Reason : ]

5/4/2007 1:10:05 AM

man, TWW is a cult.

5/4/2007 1:56:24 AM

^ man ain't that the truth

5/4/2007 8:07:14 AM

TWW IS A CULT!!

5/4/2007 9:03:49 AM

^ haha, remember when you used to get mad at me for being on here and when you joined i made a welcome thread about drinking the kool-aid?

5/4/2007 9:12:46 AM

yeah...I made a new thread in Chit Chat.

5/4/2007 9:25:00 AM