* except the death penalty, thats kewl.


This message paid for by your local Republican Party.

5/4/2007 3:49:41 AM

5/4/2007 3:51:05 AM

It's only fun to legislate "morality" when it is against teh gheys and strippers.

5/4/2007 3:53:41 AM

I don't really believe what the bible says, but it pretty clearly says that if a man sheds another man's blood, he too shall have his blood shed. But it's old testament, so it doesn't count. Wait, the ten commandments are in the old testament?. Trust me, you're not going to prove anything to anyone.

5/4/2007 4:37:08 AM

IBTL

5/4/2007 8:48:35 AM

hahahaha


this is funny


everyones a hypocrite

5/4/2007 8:52:48 AM

and you have to look at translations.


MURDER AND PUNITIVE KILLING are two different things.

Rape a few babies and burn them slowly... you die. You do nothing wrong and you can murdered and eaten by a crazy ass white dude... there is no reason for that death.



Killing the guilty to prevent further harm on society is not the same as premeditated first degree murder against and innocent human being.

Which is why I'm pro life and pro death penalty. Save the innocent. Kill the guilty.


It's pretty simple actually... but for people with such narrow minds who can't get passed talking points, I can see how this can be an obstacle.

[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 9:29 AM. Reason : .]

5/4/2007 9:28:28 AM

who are we to judge who is innocent and who is guilty?

"Save the innocent. Kill the guilty."

talk about a talking point. you might as well bring up 9/11 while you're at it.

[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 9:39 AM. Reason : d]

5/4/2007 9:36:48 AM

who are we to judge?


Well guys, that's a wrap... lets go ahead and do away with the judiciary. We can't judge anyone around here anymore. No use in donning this robe.


Anarchy to the streets!

5/4/2007 9:47:06 AM

you're absolutely correct. i forgot how perfect our judicial system is. If a few people get screwed and killed, who cares, we are doing it for the good of mankind right?

5/4/2007 9:48:19 AM

Quote :

"you're absolutely correct. i forgot how perfect our imperfect judicial system is. If a few people get screwed and killed away with murder, who cares, we are doing it for the good of mankind right?"

5/4/2007 9:49:10 AM

as long as some people get out scott free, it will make up for the people who are wrongly executed.

5/4/2007 9:50:18 AM

my real question here, is how can people who call themselves Christians support the death penalty?

5/4/2007 11:26:55 AM

it's pretty easy

I'm not a christian and I support the death penalty


I'm also pro choice and anti abortion

5/4/2007 11:37:28 AM

we should kill more people

get some dumb fucks out of the gene pool

5/4/2007 11:54:42 AM

That seems like an unwise stance for you to be taking.

5/4/2007 12:23:20 PM

Quote :

"my real question here, is how can people who call themselves Christians support the death penalty?"

Because being a Christian does not make one throw away all sense of justice.

5/4/2007 12:26:57 PM

so ones sense of justice should supersede the ten commandments?

5/4/2007 4:51:11 PM

There has never been an innocent person who was state executed. There have been groups for decades claiming so, but there has never been any evidence to support it. The latest came a couple of years ago, even danny clover was on tv harping on killing this innocent man. They though they had thier martyr. Nope the dna proved it was him, and they all shut the hell up.

Our death penalty needs to be speeded up. If they have a video of you raping and killing kids and you admit it. Why the hell do we wait 30+ years before we kill em? Just go to the next room and get that shit over with, while its on peoples minds. Now these killers being put down, no one remembers what the hell they did. It does little to deter others. In my opinion.

5/4/2007 6:59:32 PM

The commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is probably more correctly translated as "Thou Shalt Not Murder",
since the Hebrew word ratsach {raw-tsakh'} literally means "murder"

So it's not a general prohibition against all types of killing. And if you look at other Hebrew Scriptures (OT),
the death penalty is justified and even encouraged:

Quote :

" Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. --Gen 9:6 But if a man hates his neighbor and lies in wait for him, assaults and kills him, and then flees to one of these cities, the elders of his town shall send for him, bring him back from the city, and hand him over to the avenger of blood to die. Show him no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you. --Deu 19:11-13 If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; --Exd 22:2 "

so you can say that there is biblical justification for Capital Punishment ... If you're not a Christian

Because, according to the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), Jesus told everyone that
he "came not to destroy the Law (Torah), but to fulfill it." Some relevant examples include:

Quote :

" But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. --Mat 5:39 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. --Luk 6:29 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. ... anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. --Mat 5:21-22 "

The confusion arises because many Christians today like to pick and choose which biblical verses they want
to incorporate into their belief set. These a la carte Christians generally prefer the scriptures
where it's okay kill blasphemers and discriminate against homosexuals (Old Testament) but like to ignore
the ones where they're instructed to take care of the poor, the orphans and widows, and to not be judgmental,
but to treat everyone equally (New Testament)







[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 7:53 PM. Reason : ]

5/4/2007 7:33:21 PM

^ yes. I'm not using my sense of justice to supersede the 10 commandments (I noted the translation issue earlier).

It is not unchristian to punish capitally. However, I believe it is abhorrent to kill innocents and have it legally done (abortion).

5/4/2007 8:02:02 PM

Quote :

"yes"

so you're affirming your agreement with me?

because

Quote :

"It is not unchristian to punish capitally."

is contrary to what i just got done demonstrating with biblical evidence.

namely, that it is categorically unchristian to kill any person by death penalty or any other reason, that is if you get your understanding of Christianity from the teachings of Jesus

i guess if you get your scripture lessons from some wack Old Testament cult like the Seventh Day Adventists or Christian Identity Movement, then yeah, i suppose the OT is your authority and you can just fuck whatever Jesus was actually reported to have said.

Quote :

"I believe ... blah blah blah ... abortion"

whatever you believe about abortion is irrelevant. The bible is absolutely silent about any in utero abortion methods. since science and law has conclusively demonstrated that an embryo in the first trimester is in fact not a person either in the physical or legal sense, the whole discussion on this topic is moot.

so go take this pet issue of yours over to one of the numerous other threads about abortion.

oh and BTW, say hi to Dave and Juliette for me. how are the twins?






[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 8:36 PM. Reason : ]

5/4/2007 8:23:00 PM

Quote :

"eyedrb: There has never been an innocent person who was state executed. There have been groups for decades claiming so, but there has never been any evidence to support it. The latest came a couple of years ago, even danny clover was on tv harping on killing this innocent man. They though they had thier martyr. Nope the dna proved it was him, and they all shut the hell up."

Considering the number of people who have been exonerated and barely escaped the death penalty, I think it's safe to assume there have been innocent folks state executed. You know, a pragmatic implication at least.

5/4/2007 8:37:34 PM

please remind me again how science and law have proven that an embryo is not a person. I seem to have missed that part somehow. probably because they HAVEN'T proven it.

5/4/2007 10:09:36 PM

sour, I dont think you can say that someone has barely escaped the death penalty, other than on TV. Christ, dont most die of natural causes before they get put down? Im not saying to speed up the ones on circumstantial evidence by any means, but the ones you know, have proof, and they admit it...lets the show on the road already.

5/4/2007 11:18:49 PM

Quote :

"eyedrb: sour, I dont think you can say that someone has barely escaped the death penalty, other than on TV. Christ, dont most die of natural causes before they get put down? Im not saying to speed up the ones on circumstantial evidence by any means, but the ones you know, have proof, and they admit it...lets the show on the road already."

Here's a list of people who have been exonerated from death row:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110

For the very first guy, there was proof, and he admitted to the crime in a coerced confession...

Quote :

"1. David Keaton Florida Conviction: 1971, Charges Dismissed: 1973 On the basis of mistaken identification and coerced confessions, Keaton was sentenced to death for murdering an off duty deputy sheriff during a robbery. The State Supreme Court reversed the conviction and granted Keaton a new trial because of newly discovered evidence. Charges were dropped and he was released after the actual killer was identified and convicted. (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973))."

And you woulda taken him to the "next room" to "get that shit over with, while its on peoples mind."

[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 11:49 PM. Reason : IT'S A CRAZY WORLD!]

5/4/2007 11:48:39 PM

I could see the death penalty working if it was clearly defined who got it and who didn't. But it's impossible to explicitly define who does and doesn't get it.

As it is now, the people who get death row tend to be the ones with the worst lawyers, and that's not fair.

5/4/2007 11:53:35 PM

^ That's the best argument against the death penalty i think i've ever heard.

5/5/2007 12:05:32 AM

A Christian being confronted with violence is instructed to turn the other cheek, however
we are not instructed to make that choice for others, especially the weak and defenseless.

God's love does not do away with the need for punishment, it just provides a substitute through Christ. If Christ was really just against the death penalty then perhaps he should have called for the Romans to release Barabus (sp?) and Himself, but Christ instead allowed himself to be punished. Christ was not saying that no punishment was owed, He was saying that we could follow his example of self-sacrifice when confronted with violence. I think it is great if a victim can forgive the criminal, but I don't think it should be the place of the state to make that move for the victim.

The death penalty is not instituted by individuals (well outside Dirty Harry movies) it is instituted by government which is an institution sanctioned by God. I understand why some Christians are against the death penalty, but I personally see it as one aspect of defending the defenseless. There is a clear distinction between seeking vengeance on a personal level and advocating government policies which maintain order and make manifest the serious nature of certain crimes.

5/5/2007 12:23:49 AM

Quote :

" but I personally see it as one aspect of defending the defenseless"

It's fine for you to choose to see it that way, but that's not how it actually is, and it's not logically possible to show otherwise.

5/5/2007 12:50:24 AM

Quote :

"[Our] government which is an institution sanctioned by God. "

oh my. you're serious arent you?

5/5/2007 1:12:00 AM

That's what it says in the Bible.

I don't think he literally means the current gov. is specifically sanctioned by god, only the idea of gov. is sanctioned by god.

5/5/2007 1:12:43 AM

no i dont think thats what hes saying. i think hes saying our government, along with any other goverments that supports/enforces the death penalty, are divinely sanctioned.

I know the verse you're thinking of, "Render Unto Ceasar", and to use it in this context first misunderstands the original verse, and then relies on a false analogy to make the connection.

at any rate, i think you should let him defend his own statements.




[Edited on May 5, 2007 at 1:19 AM. Reason : ]

5/5/2007 1:17:39 AM

Quote :

"at any rate, i think you should let him defend his own statements. "

Well, in order for him to respond honestly, he has to feel others will read his posts objectively, and not with the assumption that he's a right-wing nutjob. I'm just providing this comfort for him

5/5/2007 1:43:18 AM

well, that is nice of you

but rest assured, everyone is quite aware this cat is a class A rightwing nutjob.

5/5/2007 1:46:06 AM

Romans 12, bitches

Quote :

"Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord."

Quote :

"There is a clear distinction between seeking vengeance on a personal level and advocating government policies which maintain order and make manifest the serious nature of certain crimes."

If only you could prove that the death penalty did anything to increase order, you'd have a point.

5/5/2007 1:50:12 AM

5/5/2007 2:59:22 AM

Quote :

"moron: ^ That's the best argument against the death penalty i think i've ever heard."

THANK YOU!

[Edited on May 5, 2007 at 3:13 AM. Reason : Not my original thought, of course. But thanks anyway!]

5/5/2007 3:11:30 AM

moron, you know exactly what I meant by speeding up the process when there is no doubt. If I have you on video killing someone then taking thier wallet, and you admit to it.. whats the problem? Big difference than using circumstantial evidence. You see my point? I also claimed that no one has been wrongly put on death row, I claimed that saying that people got saved in the last seconds is utterly ridiculous. Your example probably missed being put down by 30 years.

5/5/2007 8:40:39 AM

Quote :

"As it is now, the people who get death row tend to be the ones with the worst lawyers, and that's not fair. "

unfortunately, that describes our entire legal system at this point...

5/5/2007 11:22:21 AM

THE WHOLE ENTIRE THING.







fuck, you people make everything such an easy issue. must be easy to live in a black and white world.

5/5/2007 11:25:16 AM

are you denying that money is more important in our legal system than, well, the law?

5/5/2007 11:31:47 AM

^^^^ Uh... I never asked about that

5/5/2007 12:54:04 PM

Quote :

"eyedrb: moron BridgetSPK, you know exactly what I meant by speeding up the process when there is no doubt. If I have you on video killing someone then taking thier wallet, and you admit to it.. whats the problem? Big difference than using circumstantial evidence. You see my point? I also claimed that no one has been wrongly put on death row, I claimed that saying that people got saved in the last seconds is utterly ridiculous. Your example probably missed being put down by 30 years."

My specific example was just to show you a guy who confessed and they had evidence against. And what do you know--he didn't do it! But now confession/evidence isn't enough. You want confession/videotape. Whatever, nobody is ever going to let you drag a man into the next to room immediately after a trial and "put him down." So we can go ahead and move on from that pathetic "pipe dream."

Two of those 123 guys were exonerated after 26 years on death row. To me, that's barely escaping. Apparently, you take death a little more lightly than I.

And that's just since 1973.

Quote :

"aaronburro: unfortunately, that describes our entire legal system at this point..."

No shit. Surely you've heard me rant about that.

Our justice system is imperfect. Most everybody who was has ever dealt with the justice system at any capacity knows that. But we tolerate it, we put up with those imperfections because we need some sort of order. State executions do not provide order so there is no reason why we should look to our imperfect justice system to handle that for us.

I can't believe that you thought "this describes our entire legal system" would somehow be an excuse to allow the killing of poor people, of black people over everybody else.

[Edited on May 5, 2007 at 4:39 PM. Reason : sss]

5/5/2007 4:37:06 PM

i didnt read any of this. i will add:

Quote :

"culture of life"

5/5/2007 8:15:08 PM

Hey Look! Another thread to bash Christianity!! Cool!!

5/5/2007 11:02:22 PM

It's not bashing Christianity.

In fact, it's complimenting it by pointing out how the Right is not a good representative of Christianity.

5/5/2007 11:41:32 PM

Quote :

"moron I don't think he literally means the current gov. is specifically sanctioned by god, only the idea of gov. is sanctioned by god."

we have a winner. I said that the "institution of government" is sanctioned by God. It is one
way God could implement His vengeance. That's it.

Quote :

"Boone If only you could prove that the death penalty did anything to increase order, you'd have a point. "

Well the murderer will have a difficult time killing more people once he's dead.

5/6/2007 12:40:52 AM

Dead... rather than just in jail?

...

5/6/2007 12:59:18 AM

Quote :

"mathman: I said that the "institution of government" is sanctioned by God. It is one way God could implement His vengeance. That's it."

are you really that much of a simpleton?

or is your god so weak that he has to use a flawed and corrupt human government to carry out his will?

either way, this is one of the most pathetic things ive read here in a long time. and that's saying something.

5/6/2007 1:34:11 AM