A sad day for france. there is probably going to be even more destabilization after this election due to Sarkozy's own dubious methods matched with the youth protesters who were already pretty angry. not to mention that french science will decline like under current republican leadership in the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6630797.stm

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21684341-38200,00.html?from=public_rss

5/6/2007 10:51:20 PM

I know you said he's a conservative, but what are his political stances on things? What exactly does this do for France?

Not knowing anything about the political climate for the rest of the world ftl

5/6/2007 10:55:12 PM

I saw on world news tonight that he wanted to increase ties with american and some were frightened he would "Americanize" France.

They also said the guy (or woman actually i think) that lost was a socialist so some of the rioting is a rich vs working class type deal.

5/6/2007 11:03:27 PM

this is a good thing. France did not need any more socialism.

5/6/2007 11:06:44 PM

Quote :

"so some of the rioting is a rich vs working class type deal."

In France? Nahhhh....

5/6/2007 11:09:07 PM

well considering france has had violent riots in the past few years, and this only escalating things....it's a bad thing. plus the science thing, but only the research community cares about that (and people dying from disease too). that's why i said it was a bad thing. it remains to be seen what actually happens, but those 2 are certainties.

[Edited on May 6, 2007 at 11:11 PM. Reason : ]

5/6/2007 11:09:17 PM

Quote :

"They also said the guy (or woman actually i think) that lost was a socialist"

woman. (Royal) Its not a "some say" thing. She was the Socialist Party's nominee

Quote :

"Sarkozy, who takes office May 16, has promised tough law-and-order measures and tighter immigration controls that many opponents fear could alienate the country's underclasses and fuel social tensions."

Stricter Laws + less economic oppurtunies for the poor + continued high levels of immigration + existing social tensions = really really bad situation

5/6/2007 11:23:38 PM

Quote :

"Mr Sarkozy, 52, the son of a Hungarian immigrant"

Quote :

"...has promised tough law-and-order measures and tighter immigration controls"

I dunno, that just strikes me as a tad bit funny.

5/6/2007 11:29:29 PM

Wait, disease? If France wants to help develop cures then all it needs to do is abolish the price controls on drugs, as America has done. Or do some people still believe that drugs are developed for any other purpose than selling to Americans at huge profits?

And what is this objection that it might destabilize France? Are you nuts? This is not some third world hell-hole, there is zero chance of the French Government becoming overthrown either in a coup! or a popular uprising. Sure, the Youth do a good job at wrecking stuff, but a street riot does not a revolution make.

5/6/2007 11:41:42 PM

i'm talking about basic research sucka

5/6/2007 11:44:52 PM

just got done reading the articles

85% Voter turnout!!!

5/6/2007 11:47:52 PM

Would you provide more detail on the science and research thing? I haven't heard anything about that in the various articles I read leading up to and through both round of elections. Besides, a "conservative" in France =/= a "conservative" in the United States, the same as the left and right wings here in the US don't match those of France or most other nations.

5/7/2007 12:16:44 AM

it's actually pretty much the same thing as here in the US. sarkozy was promising to increase research budgets 40%, but only in private sector, much like bush wanted to give a tax credit for private R&D. royal was promising a genuine increase to public research by 10%. there are some articles in science mag about it, but you need to log-in to the library to view them.

5/7/2007 12:31:19 AM

I wonder if their guillotines still work.

Liberty!, Equality!, Fraternity!

5/7/2007 1:55:17 AM

^^ That's ridiculous. The United States hasn't seen anything like the recent riots in France.



This is a map of the locations of recent Muslim riots in France. And now the socialists are pissed. Yeah, the French really have everything figured out--no wonder we keep turning to Europe for answers.

Quote :

"Mr Sarkozy's campaign was based on the theme of 'la rupture', a clean break from policies of past governments, which he blamed for creating France's runaway debt, high unemployment and festering discontent in the high-immigration suburbs."

Quote :

"Socialist European deputy Pierre Moscovici says Ms Royal's defeat is a 'a defeat for all socialists'."

Quote :

"After legislative elections in June, in which he is hoping for a clear majority for the UMP and its allies, Mr Sarkozy plans a special session of the National Assembly to push through the first stage of his reforms. These include the abolition of tax on overtime, swingeing cuts in inheritance tax, a law guaranteeing minimum service in transport strikes and rules to oblige the unemployed to take up offered work. On the social front he has pledged minimum jail terms for serial offenders and tougher rules to make it harder for immigrants to bring extended families to France."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200705/s1915692.htm

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 1:57 AM. Reason : .]

5/7/2007 1:56:50 AM

I am in Lille right now, to the north, and have not seen any riots yet...I will keep you posted.

One reason why people speak out against sarkozy is because he calls the French what they are - lazy. Here, they only work 35 hours a week and everyone gets at least a MONTH of vacation time...he blames slow economic growth partly on this.

5/7/2007 3:55:43 AM

they riot there becuase the military will surrender at the first sign they have to do anything

5/7/2007 4:45:38 AM

5/7/2007 6:04:41 AM

Man this sucks. I was so hoping that Segolene Royal would win, and not this clown.

Been following the French election for months now, and it ends in disappointment now, for a lot of French people, for me, and for the world.

Royal had warned just 2 days ago that if Sarkozy wins, there would be violence in France.

5/7/2007 6:25:45 AM

^ Ah, a reader of Le Monde, no doubt.

5/7/2007 6:31:50 AM

^ whatever that means...

anyway, for those who are interested:


Royal v Sarkozy: The policies
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6357899.stm (a neat table... must see)


Profile: Segolene Royal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6375701.stm


Profile: Nicolas Sarkozy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3673102.stm

5/7/2007 6:49:46 AM

^ It wasn't even a smartass remark. You posted that you had "[b]een following the French election for months now."

FYI, Le Monde is the paper of record in France. And there are French and English versions available.

5/7/2007 6:54:50 AM

ok.

i know what Le Monde is.

i just thought that "reader of Le Monde" had some hidden or derogatory connotation that i didn't know.

and yes, it is possible to have followed the french elections without ever touching Le Monde, you know, by reading other news sources, whether in print, on tv, or in electronic format.

5/7/2007 7:04:45 AM

^ Hey, we actually resolved something--a bit tersely--in TSB without calling each other names! It's not as much fun, though, is it?

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 7:29 AM. Reason : .]

5/7/2007 7:25:47 AM

Quote :

"Royal had warned just 2 days ago that if Sarkozy wins, there would be violence in France."

Sounds like a good person to put in charge. As far as riots go... France would be much better off if they just ignored the election results and put in whoever gave the largest warning that there would be violence in charge.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 7:40 AM. Reason : -]

5/7/2007 7:39:51 AM

^ yeah, because that's what i said!

^^ i no rite!!!111 i was about to call you something because of your rolly eyes, but i desisted!

5/7/2007 7:51:39 AM

^ Could the turmoil in France actually bring opposing forces in TSB closer together? Do we dare to dream such a dream?

5/7/2007 7:54:50 AM

OH NOES NOT A CONSERVATIVE!

5/7/2007 8:18:39 AM

Quote :

"If France wants to help develop cures then all it needs to do is abolish the price controls on drugs, as America has done."

If by "cure" you mean treatments that mitigate symptoms and extend life but never let you forget you still have the disease, then you're spot on. For-profit drug companies do not create cures.

Quote :

"no wonder we keep turning to Europe for answers."

Of course, because France=Europe. All those other countries with long life expectancies, high happiness index ratings, higher standards of living than us and no-riots are really just France. France has more problems than most other western and northern European nations partially because they're issues with muslim immigrants mirror some of our issues with Latin-American immigrants. Of course we're lucky that most of our immigrants desire our lifestyle and are Christian like most Americans. They're dealing with a large immigrant population that does not want to become culturally French; this in a country that is constantly trying to preserve the French identity.

The only country that has to deal with issues on a similar scale is Spain, and they're not as gung-ho about defending their cultural identity and language as the French are. It's a very unique combination of cultural forces and it belies your ignorance to say "see, europe is fucked" by pointing at France.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:30 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:21:15 AM

^ Um. . .I think you meant bad teeth, high taxes, and not a lot of air conditioning, right?

5/7/2007 8:29:23 AM

^Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium=/ France and England. Note that I didn't say all other European countries had it great. I said to think about all those that did. Just because some countries in Europe have problems, doesn't mean they're all in the same situation as France.

I could see how not having air-conditioning in Sweden would really suck though.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:35 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:31:24 AM

^

Quote :

"The 2003 heat wave killed tens of thousands of Europeans. France buried nearly 15,000 of their own due to heat-related deaths. Add to that horrible number the 25,000 Europeans of various countries who succumbed to record-breaking temperatures. Most were elderly."

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070412/SPORTS/704120356/-1/NEWS14&sfad=1

5/7/2007 8:47:41 AM

Once again, mostly France, and then the remaining plurality in other southern European countries. Europe isn't one large country despite the existence of the EU. You can't ignore the success of some the other countries in Europe because of the shortcomings of some or even most of them. You're attempting to generalize the failure and poverty of some European countries to all of Europe and it's fairly moronic.

What you're doing is exactly the same as people who point to Europe as a whole as an example of successful socialist democracy. It's actually a little worse because you seem to recognize that that's foolish, then do the exact same thing yourself.

There's 4 European countries that have higher HDI numbers than the US, and a total of 11 that have HDI numbers close to the US's (within 4/100ths of a point) and are ranked higher than France, England, Spain, Italy or Germany. It's a large continent and the countries first thought of are not usually those that have it the best. You can't dismiss the example of countries like Sweden and Iceland because of France. I'm not saying that they are in any way a model for an ideal non-homogeneous society, but that's a completely different subject than your inability to grasp geography.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 9:04 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:53:26 AM

^ Man, please STFU with the "moronic" and "inability to grasp" shit, k? I never said any of that bullshit you posted.

Planes are leaving every day for those wonderful parts of Europe that you described--why don't you catch one? It'll be fun.

5/7/2007 9:13:25 AM

you don't really say much of anything.

5/7/2007 9:33:07 AM

Their official sites:

Segolene Royal
http://www.desirsdavenir.org (go to bottom of main page to see a very aesthetic colorful 10x10 javascript grid which shows her 100-point agenda if elected)

BTW, she would get it...

(click above for one of her best pics)


Nicolas Sarkozy
http://www.sarkozy.fr

5/7/2007 9:50:42 AM

^^^ Stop being such a god-damned moron and people will stop calling you one. You never contribute anything to any threads you post in, you just chime in with some moronic misconception or blatant distortion. I have no problems with being condescending to your ass as long as you continue to deserve it.

Quote :

"Planes are leaving every day for those wonderful parts of Europe that you described--why don't you catch one? It'll be fun."

Just because someone says we can learn from the way places get some things right, doesn't mean we think they're better. I have been to some of those places though, and I highly recommend it. Sweden and Switzerland are freaking beautiful.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 9:53 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 9:52:38 AM

Well, I read the two platforms and Nicolas Sarkozy was handsdown the most sensible from an economics standpoint. I especially like his plan to increase taxes on pollution and letting people purchase the public property in-which they reside.

5/7/2007 9:53:31 AM

Quote :

"Sweden and Switzerland are freaking beautiful."

And if I remember correctly, both countries have excellent economic policies. No minimum wage laws, no enforced anti-trust laws, deregulated product markets, low corporate taxes, relatively flat income taxes, etc. etc.

5/7/2007 10:00:17 AM

Sounds like a decent reason to look to some European countries as examples doesn't it? Sweden is a lot more socialist than it sounds like you might realize though. They are considered to be somewhat of a welfare state, but yes their economic policies are very different than France's. I didn't realize how low their income taxes were relative to other European countries though, that's kind of impressive. The neat thing about the "successful" European countries is that they do things fairly differently from each other in a lot of respects. The commonality is that while they feature strong welfare systems in most cases, their markets are on the freer side of the mixed-market spectrum.

Anyways, I think it's always important to look at Europe as an example of what can work and what can't. Countries like France depict the dangers of an overly paternalistic government and a clash of cultures. Countries like Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland show how almost contradictory socio-economic theories can produce very effective mixed systems. Of course you have to look at the homogeneity of these societies and their particular cultural values as a factor in why this kind of thing works.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 10:16 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 10:01:39 AM

^ Whatever you say, Cherryjism.

5/7/2007 10:06:47 AM

5/7/2007 10:08:05 AM

Quote :

"e calls the French what they are - lazy. Here, they only work 35 hours a week and everyone gets at least a MONTH of vacation time...he blames slow economic growth partly on this."

how, exactly, is a country lazy just because its citizens work less than we do? I think that's a wonderful setup. Think of how much less stressed the workers are (except when their candidates lose )

5/7/2007 10:10:23 AM

Quote :

"Royal v Sarkozy: The policies http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6357899.stm (a neat table... must see) "

Was I the only one reading the table and thinking that everything on the left side boiled down to "tax people and spend the money" and everything on the right boiled down to "let the people with money spend it"

5/7/2007 10:26:23 AM

^ The left claimed no increase in taxation. It definitely looks like an expensive platform though. I kind of like some of the right's stances though and wouldn't mind seeing them in the US (some of them at least, not necessarily that kind of candidate.)

"Exempt overtime (above 35 hours) from taxes and social security charges" sounds interesting to say the least. I also like their take on the inheritance tax. They want to keep it, but make it so it only effects those with extremely large estates. If they manage to exempt small family owned farms and family owned businesses, I'd say it's an impressive compromise that might be a good idea here.

Maybe it's me being selfish, but I think if I were French I'd have to vote for him because of this plank here:

Quote :

"Promote nuclear power as a clean source of energy"

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 10:34 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 10:30:43 AM

Quote :

"Well, I read the two platforms and Nicolas Sarkozy was handsdown the most sensible from an economics standpoint."

Agreed wholeheartedly. Einstein once said, "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them," and that seems to me exactly what Royale was trying to do. I don't pretend to have the answers for France, but from my perspective they need to take a long hard look at what makes them French and how that meshes with reality.

Quote :

"is a country lazy just because its citizens work less than we do? I think that's a wonderful setup."

I've only casually followed this election, but I've picked up on the fact that the French (and not just immigrant French) are very dissastisfied with the direction they're going. Yeah, it'd be nice if you could have a prosperous economy working only 35 hours a week, but a large reason for the influx of immigrants to France is the fact that jobs are going unfilled b/c the French aren't filling them.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

5/7/2007 10:35:24 AM

Quote :

"Sounds like a decent reason to look to some European countries as examples doesn't it? Sweden is a lot more socialist than it sounds like you might realize though. They are considered to be somewhat of a welfare state, but yes their economic policies are very different than France's."

A welfare state does not make you socialist; it makes you a welfare state. It is my assertion that these nations, whatever they want to call themselves, can no longer reasonably consider themselves socialist.

Now, France and Germany; they are still socialist.

5/7/2007 11:11:51 AM

Quote :

"Increase amount of tax on pollution"

That was probably one of my favorite policies listed, however, I think he got it the qrong way. I would rather give tax cuts for reduced pollution (i.e. below the average).

We all know that as far as large companies are concerned money talks. If you want to get these companies to change their ways, you need to make it economically sound to do so. If you just increase penalties or fines for doing X Y or Z, companies will start by raising prices, ignoring the fines, or simply move shop somewhere else. If you instead offer to reduce their costs for performing better than everyone else, you provide incentive to stay where they are (no increased costs) and change to gain lower costs and thus higher profits.

As an added bennefit, because you are encouraging companies to persue these changes on their own, rather than funding it with government money and public employees, you will see private businesses forming to meet the new demands and desires that companies have. These businesses will have a goal to produce money, and part of that goal will include selling their product to as wide a range of people as possible, which in the long run means that these technologies and changes will be scaled and produced for consumers as well.

5/7/2007 11:14:36 AM

^^Yeah, I suppose I should have used the word "socialized" rather than "socialist." I was talking more about the fact that Sweden in particular has been moving more towards welfare-state practices in recent years and their tax rates have increased accordingly. They're not as economically conservative as they used to be.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 11:14 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 11:14:38 AM

Quote :

"Quote : "Mr Sarkozy, 52, the son of a Hungarian immigrant" Quote : "...has promised tough law-and-order measures and tighter immigration controls" "

i don't know the facts, but odds are his family came here legally.

and immigration "reform" is not about stopping immigration. it has much to do with integration. if boatloads of people are coming over and not finding work, and at the end of the day violence results, there is an integration breakdown.

having an economy that creates jobs is better than a handout economy that reduces the size of the pie, and will improve the lot for both natives and immigrants in France.

i am a self proclaimed liberal, but cases like this is where i part with cookie cutter liberals. even i can see that the Royal was bad for France. ..she's not bad looking though..

5/7/2007 11:46:29 AM