http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/news-44/117935695635230.xml&storylist=newsmichigan

What's amazing about this is that this man would get more Democratic votes than any other Republican. I like Ron Paul a LOT and definitely lean left.

Quote :

"COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — The chairman of the Michigan Republican Party said Wednesday that he will try to bar Ron Paul from future GOP presidential debates because of remarks the Texas congressman made that suggested the Sept. 11 attacks were the fault of U.S. foreign policy. Michigan party chairman Saul Anuzis said he will circulate a petition among Republican National Committee members to ban Paul from more debates. At a GOP candidates' debate Tuesday night, Paul drew attacks from all sides, most forcefully from former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, when he linked the terror attacks to U.S. bombings. "Have you ever read about the reasons they attacked us? They attack us because we've been over there. We've been bombing Iraq for 10 years," Paul said. Anuzis called the comments "off the wall and out of whack." "I think he would have felt much more comfortable on the stage with the Democrats in what he said last night. And I think that he is a distraction in the Republican primary and he does not represent the base and he does not represent the party," Anuzis said during an RNC state leadership meeting. "Given what he said last night it was just so off the wall and out of whack that I think it was more detrimental than helpful." Anuzis said his petition would go to debate sponsors and broadcasters to discourage inviting Paul. Jesse Benton, Paul's campaign spokesman, said the candidate "is supporting the traditional GOP foreign policy. I think it's a shame when people try to silence the traditional conservative Republican standpoint." After the debate Tuesday, Paul said he didn't' expect his remarks to end his campaign. "The last time I got a message out about my position on the war it boosted us up by tens of thousands and I didn't change my position," Paul said. "I think the American people are sick and tired of this war and want it ended.""

5/18/2007 12:17:40 PM

he likes to remind everyone that he's not a conservative

5/18/2007 12:20:17 PM

what do you mean?

5/18/2007 12:21:00 PM

well even though he is for small govt and is pro-life and holds some other conservative viewpoints, he is quick to point out specifically/verbatim that he is not a conservative, which goes along with what you are saying about him kind of fitting in with the democrats more than any other republican candidate would

5/18/2007 12:24:54 PM

I somehow recall Republicans using the word "freedom" a lot in their speeches since 9/11 (e.g. "they attacked us because they hate our freedom", "our brave men and women in Iraq are fighting for our freedom", etc). That freedom wouldn't happen to include freedom of speech, would it?

5/18/2007 12:25:23 PM

ah, yea i believe he considers himself libertarian. but i think he says he's more true to conservatism than any of the other candidates, simply by virtue of the fact that he's for small govt and things like that

5/18/2007 12:26:22 PM

Quote :

"That freedom wouldn't happen to include freedom of speech, would it?"

5/18/2007 12:26:43 PM

he sure as shit doesn't fit in with the democrats

however much he sticks out in the GOP, he's still a MUCH MUCH better fit there than in the Democratic Party.

5/18/2007 12:27:06 PM

He isn't a good fit for anyone. He stands by the constitution...there currently is no party that even cares about the constitution. Well, except for consitutionalists.

5/18/2007 12:30:49 PM

i thought that what he said about us inviting 9/11 was fucking ridiculous.

5/18/2007 12:32:09 PM

why? is it not entirely plausible that because of our actions in world politics that we've garnered some interesting enemies?

patriotism isn't just blind arrogance, patriotism is having the tact and humility to admit that it's possible you aren't always correct in what you do and then working to change

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 12:34 PM. Reason : jank]

5/18/2007 12:34:03 PM

I thought is was some common sense for once and a welcome change from the fear-mongering we hear all too often.

5/18/2007 12:34:22 PM

This was posted in the Ron Paul thread.

5/18/2007 12:35:31 PM

ok?

5/18/2007 12:38:06 PM

it's amazing how many "republicans" don't like Paul


I guess if he shoved jesus down our throats it would be ok

5/18/2007 12:43:55 PM

Quote :

"why? is it not entirely plausible that because of our actions in world politics that we've garnered some interesting enemies?"

Not only is it plausible, but Osama bin Laden himself has said that the reason for 9/11 was America's interference with Middle Eastern politics.

5/18/2007 12:45:54 PM

Quote :

"I guess if he shoved jesus down our throats it would be ok"

5/18/2007 12:46:51 PM

^^bin Ladin is a sane man and reasons he gives are certainly always spot-on

like the reasons he gives for convincing people to fly planes into buildings...clearly a rational guy

5/18/2007 12:51:47 PM

look

Paul isn't saying that our enemies aren't the bad guys, or that we got what we deserved, or anything like that. He's just saying that we do some dumb things in terms of foreign policy, and have made a habit of doing so for a long time, and we would be better served by not fucking with everyone all the time.

5/18/2007 12:53:57 PM

^^
i think he gives the same reason to those people flying the planes

his justification is irrational, but hell all religion is irrational so until the christians understand that they can't say shit about his religion

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."
-Oscar Wilde


[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 12:55 PM. Reason : asdf]

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 12:56 PM. Reason : jank]

5/18/2007 12:55:14 PM

religions are irrational

radical islam is very irrational

what is rational is creating and supporting a democracy in that fucked up region of the world, and helping afghanistan when russia is our enemy and helping kuwait when they ask us for help, etc

or we can suicide bomb mexico since 12 million mexicans are occupying our land

5/18/2007 12:57:22 PM

i'm not sure how function it is to expect iraq to function as a democracy. i'm not convinced at all that it's the best way to govern that country.

5/18/2007 12:58:56 PM

i was referring to israel

5/18/2007 12:59:20 PM

Quote :

"religions are irrational very irrational radical islam is very irrational"

what's rational is letting people live how they want, such that it doesn't interfere with us (and yes, if we had long ago left them to their own they would not be currently interfering with us, or at least it would be much less likely.) just like republicans want government out of the lives of americans, why not leave our government out of the lives of people who aren't americans.

5/18/2007 1:01:52 PM

Quote :

"^^bin Ladin is a sane man and reasons he gives are certainly always spot-on like the reasons he gives for convincing people to fly planes into buildings...clearly a rational guy "

Call him what you will, but he is sane enough to start and lead a very powerful terrorist organization, orchestrate many terrorist attacks, including an elaborate one that killed 3,000 Americans, and evade capture for almost 6 years now and counting. He may have extreme ideas, but he's certainly sane enough to be a threat to much of the world. And Ron Paul had a point, you don't see Al Quaida attacking Switzerland or Iceland, do you? Or do you actually believe that drivel that Bush spewed about how "they hate us for our freedom"?

5/18/2007 1:02:34 PM

^ They bombed Bali, Indonesia. WTF, did Indonesia do? Mother fuckers take everything out of context and want everyone to believe that America is the Great Satan that they say we are.


You give them credence when you say that we invited 9/11. Have you ever thought about the fact that the Koran instructs them to do these things as a reason for 9/11?

A blind ignorance to the Koran is just as damning as your so called blind patriotism.

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:04 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 1:04:07 PM

what is truly amazing is that i always thought republicans were the realists and democrats were the idealists. yet when it comes to admitting mistakes, and when it comes to the state of the middle east and america's role in the world, it is the republicans who are idealists and the democrats who are realists

^i think you may have misunderstood but that could have been my fault in my explanation regardless, people keep misrepresenting this "inviting 9/11" thing as if we attacked them and said "whatcha gon do yo" (though bush saying "bring em on" may have incited this haha)

anyway actions are the results of other actions. a lot of our actions built up to 9/11. in that way, we are partly to blame. just like when you tease a kid at school for 4 years and he goes postal

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:07 PM. Reason : jank]

5/18/2007 1:04:35 PM

Quote :

"what's rational is letting people live how they want"

but when iraq doesnt let kuwait live how they want, do we just say "oh well tough luck"? seems to me the bottom line is something to the effect of

A: whats up with that guy?
B: yeah that guy is a psycho...if you look at him wrong he will cut your throat
A: he'll cut my throat just for looking at him? thats crazy
B: yeah, so you shouldnt look at him because he'll cut your throat
A: seems pretty irrational
B: yeah but if you get your throat cut you'll know why...maybe you shouldnt look at people
A: but

Quote :

"Or do you actually believe that drivel that Bush spewed about how "they hate us for our freedom"?"

no i believe they hate any non muslims who dont want to live by islamic law

Quote :

"in that way, we are partly to blame. just like when you tease a kid at school for 4 years and he goes postal "

i couldnt agree less

EVERYBODY GETS TEASED AT SCHOOL...only the fucking unexcusable crazies go postal...fuck that bullshit excuse

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:08 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 1:05:33 PM

Quote :

"no i believe they hate any non muslims who dont want to live by islamic law"

i tend to agree with this but it's the same with any other religion when it comes down to it. they just go about it in a different, possibly more violent way.

Quote :

"but when iraq doesnt let kuwait live how they want, do we just say "oh well tough luck"? seems to me the bottom line is something to the effect of"

coming to the defense of a country is different than imposing your will/government on another

5/18/2007 1:08:32 PM

^^ yep... there is no excuse for V-Tech as is there is no excuse for 9/11.


But if you actually read the Koran, you'll see plenty of excuses for 9/11. But fools like you want to shut your mind to what's actually in that book.


^ No, Jesus Christ did not tell me to kill Muslims. Mohammad told his people to kill Christians and Jews. Again, the philosophical differences between these two men are night and day.

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:10 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 1:09:11 PM

Quote :

"it's the same with any other religion when it comes down to it"

not at all...i dont see christians trying to kill anyone who doesnt want to convert...sure maybe they'll go on missions to try and spread their religion...but they dont murder people who refuse to convert...not lately anyway...and if they did, they would be just as bad

Quote :

"coming to the defense of a country is different than imposing your will/government on another "

but again...they equate coming to the aid of kuwait is invading their holy land...if we landed in afghanistan for 1 hour and distributed food and water to everyone, they would think its infidels trying to take over their holy land

5/18/2007 1:11:06 PM

^^....i'm atheist. i detest all religion....

^

Quote :

"EVERYBODY GETS TEASED AT SCHOOL...only the fucking unexcusable crazies go postal...fuck that bullshit excuse"

yes, the crazies take it that far, BUT, had that person not been teased, then what do you think would NOT have happened?

that's all i'm saying, admit the role of all parties, however small, or stupid they may seem/are

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:11 PM. Reason : asdf]

have you people ever heard of the crusades????

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:12 PM. Reason : jank]

5/18/2007 1:11:15 PM

Quote :

"if we landed in afghanistan for 1 hour and distributed food and water to everyone, they would think its infidels trying to take over their holy land"

point

5/18/2007 1:12:34 PM

^^ Oh my God are you retarded? I'm not preaching to you, I'm telling you why they attack us. And if you don't believe that and if your atheism deters you from reading a Bible or a Koran, then you're an idiot.


If you read, you would understand, but no, you sympathize. That is so very typical of a fucking liberal.

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:12 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 1:12:37 PM

Quote :

"had that person not been teased, then what do you think would NOT have happened?"

you're trying to rationalize what a completely irrational person does...you wont find a rational answer

and im agnostic...like i said, if the christians were killing non converters they would be just as bad...but they're not doing that nowadays...radical muslims are though

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:14 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 1:13:32 PM

Quote :

"but they're not doing that nowadays"

but they did, and it is more than likely in the future, as evolution continues, that muslims will turn out the same way

5/18/2007 1:15:40 PM

thats fine

the crusades are just as bad as what modern day muslims are doing...thats fine

but i'm more worried about who is doing it nowadays

and whoever is doing it nowadays...muslims, christians, atheists, buddhists...is fucked up in the head

you cannot logically and rationally understand someone who doesnt use logic and rationale to make decisions

Quote :

"he is sane enough to start and lead a very powerful terrorist organization, orchestrate many terrorist attacks, including an elaborate one that killed 3,000 Americans, and evade capture for almost 6 years now and counting. "

he might be smart...but he sure as hell isnt sane

5/18/2007 1:19:00 PM

Quote :

"If you read, you would understand, but no, you sympathize. That is so very typical of a fucking liberal. "

so sympathizing is bad? better stop sympathizing when an idiot kid wanders away from his family in the woods and not send in a rescue team.

Quote :

"but i'm more worried about who is doing it nowadays"

i completely respect that. but it is important to understand the reasons behind why they are doing such things and part of those reasons include our foreign policy over there.

and on a broad note, our policy over there reflects the current administration's way of handling iraq. if you're going to take over a country, send in a shock force, PLENTY of troops to do it. if you're going to convert the middle east, do it with force, not with small little peace envoys, and little brigades of soldiers, and shit like that

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:21 PM. Reason : jank]

5/18/2007 1:19:06 PM

sympathizing with aa kid lost from his parents is humane

sympathizing with a madman like bin Ladin or Cho is bad

Quote :

"but it is important to understand the reasons behind why they are doing such things and part of those reasons include our foreign policy over there. "

i just still have a problem with this approach...it seems to me this same way of thinking would allow some white guy who just got their ass beaten by some black guys to be viewed as "well the reason was probably slavery...if there hadnt been slavery this wouldnt have happened"

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 1:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2007 1:21:33 PM

um... wow, a kid in the woods... to a multi-national terror organization responsible for killing a hell of a lot of people. THIS is PRECISELY the type of sympathizing that is not good.

5/18/2007 1:22:18 PM

we're not sympathizing with bin laden, we are simply recognizing some of his reasoning, however irrational it may be and that is the key to understanding the big picture

5/18/2007 1:22:37 PM

i guess our opinions are at a stalemate

5/18/2007 1:24:16 PM

I think you're in denial. Comparing bin laden to the kid in the woods is sympathizing. Unless you want to go back on those words, you're in complete denial about your stance on bin laden.

5/18/2007 1:30:42 PM

OK, let's say those of you who say that attacked us because they hate all non-Muslims are right. Why then, did the U.S. suffer repeated attacks by Al Quaida (9/11, the WTC attack back in the 90's, the attack on the U.S. Embassy in one of the countries in Africa -- I forget which one) while other non-Muslim countries had none? And how come you never hear an Al Quaida member calling, say, Finland "The Great Satan"? Maybe the reason they hate us so much does have something to do with our actions, especially considering that the leader of Al Quiada said it himself?

Also, if the Koran command Muslims to kill all non-believers, why do so many Muslims come to the U.S. and live normal, productive, crime free lives without killing anyone? Maybe it's not what the Koran says but how certain people interpret it, much like Christians in the past have interpreted the Bible as commanding them to actions such as Crusades, Inquisition, religious wars following the Protestant Revolution, etc.

5/18/2007 1:45:23 PM

^ Because they do not practice Islam. They practice a "christianized" form of Islam.

The Koran is a lot like the Bible in that there are parts of it that are contradictory. We solve this problem by saying the new covenant and the death and resurrection of Christ is the new system of laws, not the old Mosaic Law where there was a barrier between man and God. So the "love your neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" philosophy (the new Testament) is the law which guides Christians as opposed to the old stoning rituals.

The Koran is the same way. EXCEPT... Mohammad started in much of the same way as Christ. He preached love and kindness. But once he gained more and more momentum throughout the region, he became a warrior and conquered numerous villages and cities, taking from the city what he needed to fund his army. His philosophy also changed from the love he spoke of earlier to the "kill the Christian and the Jews if they refuse to pay a tax." Islamic scholars place more weight on the later teachings of Mohammad.

The true Muslims will kill Christians and Jews as Mohammad instructed them to do.

Quote :

"Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them... -Mohmmad, Surah 4:89"

Quote :

"If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. - Jesus, Luke 6:29"

5/18/2007 2:06:11 PM

^^

[Edited on May 18, 2007 at 2:07 PM. Reason : asdf]

5/18/2007 2:07:04 PM

^^

5/18/2007 2:07:39 PM

lol, the ^^ i'm referring to is from his first half

5/18/2007 2:07:52 PM

Quote :

"while other non-Muslim countries had none?"

Spain, Denmark, Britain, Us, Australia, Indonesia...

5/18/2007 2:09:10 PM

Quote :

"^ They bombed Bali, Indonesia. WTF, did Indonesia do?"

Specifically, the words largest concentration of Muslims are located here and Indonesia was supporting the US war on terror.

And you are surprised an Islamic extremist might want to bomb some shit because of this?

5/18/2007 2:09:57 PM