Why do they assume everything in the market is a function of supply and demand except labor?

6/6/2007 3:50:28 PM

I think its more like "jobs American employers don't want to paying a living wage for"

6/6/2007 3:53:49 PM

agreed.

minimum wage should gradually be raised to $15 per hour or so.

that way, everyone will be able to afford life.

6/6/2007 3:59:08 PM

^ Holy crap... $15/hour... there goes my college degree.

6/6/2007 4:05:06 PM

Now i'm really worried if $15/hour wasn't high enough to be obvious hyperbole....

6/6/2007 4:14:58 PM

lol

6/6/2007 4:20:10 PM

It is keeping wages artificially low. Much like slave labor in the Old South. This actually stifled economic development, because instead of relying on innovation/industrialization and increased efficiency, they could use cheap manual labor.

6/6/2007 5:35:41 PM

Get rid of government handouts and you'll see how quickly Americans will take those jobs.

6/6/2007 5:43:38 PM

Quote :

"It is keeping wages artificially low. Much like slave labor in the Old South. This actually stifled economic development, because instead of relying on innovation/industrialization and increased efficiency, they could use cheap manual labor. "

There's nothing artificial about people selling their labor at a lower cost than you, and employers buying labor at a lower cost than yours. The only thing artificial is the minimum wage.

Quote :

"Why do they assume everything in the market is a function of supply and demand except labor?"

Why do you say they aren't assuming labor is supply and demand? The implied rest of the phrase is:

"jobs that americans don't want at the wages that employers are willing to offer or that americans can't take because of the laws forbidding them to sell their labor at the prices employers are willing to offer."

it just doesn't roll of the tounge so well.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 5:51 PM. Reason : sdf]

6/6/2007 5:49:13 PM

minimum wage laws keep wages artificially high

6/6/2007 5:55:19 PM

Quote :

"Get rid of government handouts and you'll see how quickly Americans will take those jobs."

ding ding ding, we have a winner.

why work on a farm for $6 an hour when the government will pay for everything instead?

6/6/2007 10:31:36 PM

um, because $6 a hour isn't enough to live on and those types of jobs don't provide benefits?

6/7/2007 12:31:42 PM

its enough for high school and college kids with summer jobs to live on in that stage of their lives

you know, the people who used to work all these jobs that "Americans don't want"

6/7/2007 12:36:00 PM

There's millions of people in the US who make minimum wage and don't have their parents paying their rent, tuition, paying their insurance, putting gas in their car or giving them a little extra on the side. I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert how they are some sort of poster child for free market success when they don't even participate in the market.

6/7/2007 12:46:48 PM

uh what?

6/7/2007 12:50:09 PM

I always hear people talk about government handouts, but isn't there something to be said for government supporting poor people? I mean, if we look back to the Great Depression, pre-welfare, weren't there a lot of folks just dying and doing even worse?

I don't think that the government should provide endless supports for people, but a safety net for those who falter is important. I do have some issues with unemployment and welfare, but I don't think nearly as many people are just sitting back collecting a check as everyone thinks.

I don't think I could ever collect welfare or unemployment. I just have to know that I have earned what I have in some way.

6/7/2007 12:51:53 PM

Quote :

"There's millions of people in the US who make minimum wage and don't have their parents paying their rent, tuition, paying their insurance, putting gas in their car or giving them a little extra on the side."

Considering that less than 2 million people make minimum wage in this country, I call bullshit on your "millions of people".

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm#2

Quote :

"I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert how they are some sort of poster child for free market success when they don't even participate in the market."

Shut the fuck up. You don't know shit about me.

[Edited on June 7, 2007 at 1:01 PM. Reason : 2]

6/7/2007 12:54:54 PM

or me or anyone else on here

6/7/2007 1:11:58 PM

Quote :

"There's millions of people in the US who make minimum wage and don't have their parents paying their rent, tuition, paying their insurance, putting gas in their car or giving them a little extra on the side. I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert how they are some sort of poster child for free market success when they don't even participate in the market."

And then there are those of us who have supported themselves and another person on an $8 / hour 20 hours a week job. Incase you're mathematically impaired, that's less than a full time minimum wage job. I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert that no one else on TWW could possibly know what being poor is like.

6/7/2007 1:12:45 PM

Quote :

"There's millions of people in the US who make minimum wage and don't have their parents paying their rent, tuition, paying their insurance, putting gas in their car or giving them a little extra on the side. I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert how they are some sort of poster child for free market success when they don't even participate in the market."

I love how idiots like you just make shit up.

6/7/2007 1:17:16 PM

Quote :

"I don't think I could ever collect welfare or unemployment. I just have to know that I have earned what I have in some way."

what, paying into the system your whole working life isn't enough?

6/7/2007 2:17:25 PM

Quote :

"There's millions of people in the US who make minimum wage and don't have their parents paying their rent, tuition, paying their insurance, putting gas in their car or giving them a little extra on the side. I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert how they are some sort of poster child for free market success when they don't even participate in the market. "

I would like to specifically cite Mr. Joshua

6/7/2007 2:32:17 PM

Quote :

"Considering that less than 2 million people make minimum wage in this country, I call bullshit on your "millions of people"."

i'm making above minimum wage for my summer job right now ($6.50/hr) and that's still not very liveable. i'm more or less skating by on savings. i'm assuming that anyone making under $8/hr is struggling to get by.

Quote :

"And then there are those of us who have supported themselves and another person on an $8 / hour 20 hours a week job."

i'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this situation didn't go on very long.

6/8/2007 12:06:21 AM

I remember the last time I was paid minimum wage...

...over a decade ago, at my very first job working fast food, for all of about 2 weeks before I got a raise.

and this:

Quote :

"Scuba Steve: I love how idiot TWWers who have never been poor a day in their lives try to assert how they are some sort of poster child for free market success when they don't even participate in the market."

wow. just... wow. 

6/8/2007 12:22:11 AM

Quote :

"Get rid of government handouts and you'll see how quickly Americans will take those jobs."

It's all a part of living within your means. If you can't afford certain extras while on a particular budget, then live without them until you can.

6/8/2007 12:31:11 AM

Quote :

"its enough for high school and college kids with summer jobs to live on in that stage of their lives you know, the people who used to work all these jobs that "Americans don't want""

THIS is a very important assessment because it goes hand in hand with how americans have been raised by the fucking baby boomer generation

"you're special" "you can do anything you want" " you you you"

our generation hasn't been taught how to be part of something, we've only been taught how to look out for ourselves. so with that mindset we say fuck workin in a field PART TIME for extra cash, i'm gonna let mommy and daddy pay for everything for me

freshmen year, dorm? fuck that, i want off campus private apartments. i'm too good to share a bathroom

yes that's a rant, thank you treetwista for making that point

6/8/2007 12:38:59 AM

^^ fairly easy to do until you have to go to the hospital

6/8/2007 12:44:42 AM

^

6/8/2007 12:45:05 AM

^^

6/8/2007 12:47:54 AM

^^^
The truth


^^^^
For the record, many apartments can be found in the campus area that are cheaper than dorms...

6/8/2007 2:00:07 AM

Quote :

"Crooden: ^^ fairly easy to do until you have to go to the hospital"

It's easier than you think. For people w/o health insurance many hospitals will substantially reduce your bill, as will their surgical folks, and many EMS companies will waive charges entirely.

Not saying it's necessarily a wise idea to be walking around w/o health insurance, but I've been there and it wasn't/isn't that big of a deal unless you're having a series of über-expensive surgeries.

6/8/2007 7:09:19 AM

after reading through the posts here I'm trying to decide if it's even worth diving into...

right now I'm thinking no..

I'll brave the headache after I get out of class

6/8/2007 7:33:58 AM

There have been studies focused on people who repeatedly go on and off of welfare, and they have found that the people are usually happy to have a low wage job w/o benefits, until someone in their family gets sick.

6/8/2007 9:12:39 AM

^ That's why providing stipends and passing tax breaks for the purchase of private insurance is a talking point.

All nationalized health insurance will do is bring the level of care down for everyone.


PS -

Don't have babies if you can't afford diapers.

I shouldn't be forced to pay for everybody else just because I worked hard and succeeded in life.

Some people would rather have that pack of smokes per day instead of insurance, so in their case, I don't have any pity.

PSS -

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5215724,00.html

[Edited on June 8, 2007 at 9:37 AM. Reason : .]

6/8/2007 9:20:17 AM

Quote :

"All nationalized health insurance will do is bring the level of care down for everyone."

I'm sure that the rich will continue to use private means to get the best care available.

Quote :

"I shouldn't be forced to pay for everybody else just because I worked hard and succeeded in life."

I think most people would say that exact same thing about the state subsidizing the bulk of your college tuition (if you are in state), but I don't hear you decrying that.

And you speak like you have "worked" so hard in your career...how old are you? Early to Mid 20's? You speak like you are retiring or something.

6/8/2007 10:12:33 AM

Quote :

"All nationalized health insurance will do is bring the level of care down for everyone... who already has health insurance."

fixed that for you

If you don't have/can't afford health coverage then something is better than nothing. So no, it won't bring the level quality of health care down for everyone.. just most of us.

6/8/2007 10:16:54 AM

Quote :

"And then there are those of us who have supported themselves and another person on an $8 / hour 20 hours a week job."

Two people able to live on $160 a week? Surely you jest.

6/8/2007 10:22:30 AM

Quote :

"^^ fairly easy to do until you have to go to the hospital "

My point being is that many people complain and complain about the current living wage, when what they don't realize is that they have a lot of things that arent vital ot their "living" that they are paying for. Obviously there are people who absolutely cant have these things and dont, but there are plenty others (possibly more of the lower-middle class) that are in debt up to their ears because they try to "keep up". Certainly an unexpected hospital or medical expense can be troublesome for anyone, but like TGD said, it's not impossible.

6/8/2007 10:37:53 AM

most people declare bankruptcy because of medical bills, not tv payments.

6/8/2007 10:41:47 AM

^

b/c they order the digital cable, 2 packs of smokes a day, buying diapers for the baby they had when they were 16, they pimp their ride, etc....when they should be saving for an emergency or buying health insurance

6/8/2007 10:58:12 AM

Quote :

"most people declare bankruptcy because of medical bills, not tv payments."

Medical bills are high on the list, but a little Googling will give the breakdown closer to:

1. Eliminate the Legal Obligation to Pay Many of Your Debts.
2. Stop Foreclosure on Your House and Allow You to Effectively Make Payments to Catch up on Missed Payments of Your Mortgage.
3. Prevent Your Car or Other Property From Being Repossessed.
4. Reduce or Even Eliminate High Medical Bills.
5. Recent Loss of Employment.
6. Stop Harassing Behavior From Creditors.
7. Restore or Prevent Your Utilities From Being Shut Off.
8. Provide Help For Large Amounts Of Student Loan Debt.
9. End Wage Garnishments.
10. Challenge Certain Claims of Fraudulent Creditors.

Taken from:
http://www.bankruptcyhome.com/top10reasons.htm

So that puts 3 other reasons ahead of high medical bills... and all 3 of those could be either eliminated or mitigated if said persons were living at or below their means. (What's more disconcerting here is that there is little discussion about the unfair lending practices going on by the credit card companies)

6/8/2007 10:59:34 AM

Quote :

"most people declare bankruptcy because of medical bills, not tv payments."

assuming that were true... is there some inalienable right to a good credit score?

For those that are uninsured, they will not be denied medical care in the event of a car accident or other life threatening emergency, but maybe they'll have to declare bankruptcy if they can't pay for it, and even then only if it's a hospital that pursues it to that level. Community hospitals like WakeMed are subsidized in part by tax dollars, so in a roundabout way, socialized medicine is already here.

I don't agree with a government sponsored medical, dental, vision plan for all. it's simply not scalable.

6/8/2007 11:06:54 AM

Quote :

"i'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this situation didn't go on very long."

About 10 months or so, some months having more pay than others (seasonal times boost hours a bit).

Quote :

"^^ fairly easy to do until you have to go to the hospital"

Depends on how badly off you are, and what resources you avail yourself of. The person I was caring for has a medical condition that requires pretty much yearly visits to a specialist. That's about $300 or so for just the office visit. Each time because we had no insurance and no real income, we paid nothing or a very small amount. The few times we had to pay medical bills it was pretty much a no intrest pay what you can when you can loan.

To add to that, the monthly dose of medication suggested by the doctor would face value without insurance be ~$1000 / month. Via a private charity and contacting the manufacturer directly, it was possible for us to obtain the monthly medications for about $7 / month, all because of the generosity of the big bad evil pharma company with deep pockets so they could afford to give us the medicine at highly discounted rates.

Quote :

"Two people able to live on $160 a week? Surely you jest."

Cut out your cable, internet and cut down on your electricity use and your bills are fairly minimal. Find a job you can walk to and your car expenses are almost non existent, especialy if you get minimum insurance and have a clean driving record. Give up on the cell phone, and find a roommate to split the remaining costs of living and it's quite doable. Sure it's not the best life in the world, but life isn't about having the best now, it's about surviving now to have the best later.

When you're poor and down and out, you can't live like a rich person or even a middle class person. To try and do so will put you into serious debt (been there done that as well, still paying it off). Learn to budget and learn to budget well and you would be suprised at just how cheaply you can live.

6/8/2007 11:26:49 AM

^

6/8/2007 11:43:35 AM

Depends on where you live, too. You can live alot cheaper in Eastern NC or western Kansas than you can somewhere like NYC, DC, or even Raleigh...but don't act like you are doing it all without anyone's help when you are paying minimal taxes (EVERYONE uses some public services/assets) and would be bailed out by the general public directly or indirectly in a medical catastrophe.

[Edited on June 8, 2007 at 11:54 AM. Reason : .]

6/8/2007 11:50:56 AM

^^^ good points.

and i'll concede that there's very little incentive for people to change their excessive habits when they can receive so many free handouts. my dad once told me about how when he and my mom first got married, they'd be clipping coupons and getting by on boxes of hamburger helper while people with ebt cards would be coming to the check-out counter with steaks.

but my points are addressing more the liveable wage. surely, raising the minimum wage to $7.15 an hour will help, and with a little foresight, anyone can budget according to their income. but a couple of emergency room visits or unexpected bills can knock you out if you don't have insurance or savings.


i don't have the answers: i don't think putting too much money in the hands of irresponsible consumers would be any wiser than overly restricting free enterprise. but for god's sake, people are going to have children, they are going to hook up, have sex, and form families regardless of their income level. this bottom-of-the-barrel lifestyle that some of you are describing can work for single 20-somethings (i've been there myself), but realistically, it doesn't work for everyone.

6/8/2007 12:23:34 PM

Quote :

"surely, raising the minimum wage to $7.15 an hour will help"

Help who? The teenagers, immigrants, and poor blacks that are made unemployable? Evidently you feel that $5.15 is so impossible to budget on, might as well make it $0.00 an hour.

[Edited on June 8, 2007 at 12:42 PM. Reason : sp]

6/8/2007 12:41:17 PM

no. actually i was thinking about myself:

(from above)

Quote :

"i'm making above minimum wage for my summer job right now ($6.50/hr) and that's still not very liveable. i'm more or less skating by on savings. i'm assuming that anyone making under $8/hr is struggling to get by."

if businesses have to chip in an extra $2 an hour, they'll adjust, just like minimum wagers have been adjusting to inflation since the last increase.

6/8/2007 12:48:50 PM

Quote :

", and find a roommate to split the remaining costs of living and it's quite doable. Sure it's not the best life in the world, but life isn't about having the best now, it's about surviving now to have the best later."

I was just curious if you did this in Raleigh on $640 month. $300 for rent (how much are utilities?) if you split leaves $6 a day to live on.

Thats pretty hardcore though if you managed that for 10 months.

6/8/2007 12:53:17 PM

Quote :

"Two people able to live on $160 a week? Surely you jest"

This is not terribly difficult if you don't have children. Children are tough because they consume lots of clothes, and are more sensitive to lack of food and tempeture regulation.

When I lived on less than that rent was the big expense. Most of the rest went to food. Bills are really tiny if you don't have a car, television, computer, and don't use lights during the day. Its really not that bad.

The major problem is that being poor hurts your game. With good reason of course since the evolutionary purpose of sex is to reproduce and you are in no position to support kids.

6/8/2007 1:01:14 PM