A lot has been said on whether Islam is a religion of violence. I decided to get some background on it. We would all do ourselves afavor by getting more educated on this subject, since it's discused so often.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Quote :

"According to most sources, approximately 85% of the world's Muslims are Sunni and approximately 15% are Shi'a, with a small minority who are members of other Islamic sects.[103]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Five_Pillars

^ Islam is broadly based upon Five Pillars of Islam. The Shia follow three additional pillars one of which is jihad. The Sunnis have an unofficial 6th pillar of Islam which refers to jihad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_pillar_of_Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad


There's a lot to read, but generally jihad is broken down into 2 parts - Greater and Lesser jihad. The Lesser refers to broadly to warfare, protecting oneself and family, and for expanding Islam. There's plenty of room for interpretation through which you can justify war with non-islamic people.

Yeah, it's a broad jumping off point, but my lunch break is over. Discuss.

9/17/2007 1:00:04 PM

Depends on the muslim.

Making a generalization about over one billion people is a stretch. You could really make a very similar argument for any major religion (except for those pussy Buddhists).

9/17/2007 1:07:17 PM

This could equally be posited as:

"Religion - A medium of violence or peace?"
"Humans - A species of violence or peace?"

This thread could go two directions . . . though I'm quite confident that it won't take long to go the negative one on TWW.

9/17/2007 1:09:47 PM

From what I've studied on the religion (being brought up Catholic, and going to Catholic schools my entire life, we had to study other religions) the basic tenants of Islam are basically good. It's the interpretation of the Qu'ran by humans that tends to cause the problem.

That being said...

I'd have to agree with

Quote :

""Humans - A species of violence or peace?""

9/17/2007 1:56:50 PM

where is marko when you need him?

9/17/2007 2:01:48 PM

all three Abrahamic faiths are based on the facist doctrine that when the king's conscriptors come knocking at your door, you send your son to take up arms for his war.

if you want religions of peace, you want religions based on karma. those start east of the Indus river valley. however, the Bhagvad Gita is pretty facist too.

i don't know if you've all realised this yet, but the crusades were about capturing the silk road more than anything.

Marc Antony didn't go to Egypt because he loved Cleopatra. he went to ensure grain shipments made it to the Aventine.

and it is absolutely no coincidence that Pontius Pilate needed "Judas" in order to get the man he was after. yeah, clever name. everyone since then has been paying with blood for the cleverness of Roman public policy.

would there be chaos in Bactria and Sogdia without centuries of opium wars? possibly, but its hard to know.

after Petrochina's big oil find last month, the next biggest oil field may be in southern Sudan. bet you didn't know that either.

i'm willing to bet the change in my pocket that if an invasion of Troy occured, it wasn't because of Helen.

its a thematic variation on what Thucydides said about Athens vs. Sparta.

its no grand conspiracy by anyone. its about resource acquisition. the plebeians are always the last to know, and the first to bleed.

i don't even know where to begin, maybe here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2170660,00.html


its not hopeless though. the progressives of the world are fighting the good fight. just Friday Vinod Khosla was on CNBC talking about how we need to quit lollygagging and just tap into the sun. he said something to the extent of "we're 25 years from reaching efficient methods of making solar energy usable (and his fund Khosla Ventures is making huge bets on it).

i love solar power -- i pray to the sun god you know.

ok, that's enough ranting for a Monday.


one more thing...i think oil barrel will approach $100 by the end of the year, followed by the steady increase of Saudi output (which has already begun) bringing prices al the way back down to $50 -- just in time for golbal growth to enter a cooling phase, and the 2008 Beijing olympics to pass...in the meantime, gold will test $1000 and the dollar will stabilize.




[Edited on September 17, 2007 at 2:12 PM. Reason : btw, BIDU is a crowded trade...]

9/17/2007 2:06:52 PM

Don't worry, once we solve the entire oil problem, I have no doubt that humanity will find another commodity to wage war over. Clean water for example, or perhaps iron, agricultural land, or fishing grounds. Plenty of opportunities and excuses to kill each other especially as the population grows.

I guess cynicism has made me a believer that warfare, along with famine and disease, are the natural means by which humans trim their numbers to fit the limited number of resources available to us.

9/17/2007 3:03:02 PM

^^ wait, what? I though I was reading a Dr. Bronner's bottle there.

Quote :

"its not hopeless though. the progressives of the world are fighting the good fight"

I'd consider myself an agnostic, at best, so I'm not supporting religion here in particular, but I have little confidence in humanity's ability to function any better or worse under a materalistic atheistic doctrine than a theistic one.

9/17/2007 3:44:13 PM

Quote :

"i'm willing to bet the change in my pocket that if an invasion of Troy occured, it wasn't because of Helen."

Everyone who has watched the movie Troy knows that DUrr...
High King Agamemnon did not give a fuck up about Menelaus's whore of a wife. That is like saying we went to Iraq "to free the iraqi's"

My high school 10th grade World History teacher even taught us that 95% of wars are based on some economic reason which the leaders disguise using various other motives religion, national security, cultural superiority, etc...

Look at the 1st Gulf War. We did not save Kuwait's ass just because we wanted to do the right thing and help our buddies in the persian gulf


I am not even arguing that some wars for economic benefit are always bad. People just need to wake up and understand how the world really works and see the whole picture not just a bunch of propaganda that governments pump out. I am sure the average german thought they were doing right to invade Poland who "attacked" them at the start of WW2



[Edited on September 17, 2007 at 4:27 PM. Reason : l]

9/17/2007 4:21:04 PM

Quote :

"if you want religions of peace, you want religions based on karma. those start east of the Indus river valley."

Buddhist monks were known to be cruel, greedy, capricious power-seekers during the reign of the Khans 13th and 14th centuries, waging wars against political opponents, palace intrigues, assassination attempts, etc., etc.

at least equal to the level of their Hindu/Muslim/Christian/Confucian contemporaries -- and perhaps moreso, since the Lama-led Tibetean Buddhists were favored by the nomadic Mongols.

modern Buddhism is regularly (and appropriately, IMO) criticised for doing little to nothing to help victims of tragedies and other people suffering throughout the world, preferring instead to turn their thoughts and efforts toward the next plane of existence.




[Edited on September 17, 2007 at 5:54 PM. Reason : ]

9/17/2007 5:49:40 PM

Quote :

"modern Buddhism is regularly (and appropriately, IMO) criticised for doing little to nothing to help victims of tragedies and other people suffering throughout the world, preferring instead to turn their thoughts and efforts toward the next plane of existence."

Modern Buddhism has its monks spilling out into massive three way street battles between two rival factions and riot police as they battle for control over an enriched monastery or a Buddhist governments waging violent wars, coups, and persecution against non-Buddhist minorities. joe_schmoe is right, one simply needs to look at Eastern Asian history to see the pain and suffering caused by Buddhist factions.

9/18/2007 2:53:48 AM

Once again, as JCASHFAN so insightfully mentioned, it all really comes down to the bigger question.

"Humans - A species of violence or peace?"

When we look for the answer, we quickly realize that we're pretty much fucked.

9/18/2007 5:59:35 AM

^^ while i appreciate clever sarcasm as much as anyone... yours is not particularly clever as much as it's wrong.

is this merely ignorance because you are completely unable to understand what I wrote?

or is it an attempt to deceive because i have hit too close to your sacred cow?

9/18/2007 12:55:45 PM

Who says I was being sarcastic? I was being dead serious with my comments. Coming from an Eastern Asian background, it always bewildered me how some in this country seem to have elevated Buddhism to this higher plateau as having a historical track record of being morally superior to compared to the corruption in the Catholic church or the violent tendencies of the modern Islamic radicals. Buddhists are no better. Unless I misread your comments, and you were being sarcastic I was in agreement with you.

Quote :

"monks spilling out into massive three way street battles between two rival factions and riot police"

Happened in the late 1990s in South Korea as two factions battled over who was the legitimate successor. It made international news wires because of how bizarre the incident was.

Quote :

"Buddhist governments waging violent wars, coups, and persecution against non-Buddhist minorities"

The Buddhist Sri Lankan government has killed who knows how many in their never ending war against the Tamil Tigers. Thailand, a devout Buddhist nation with a Buddhist monarchy, experiences regular military coups, calls by their monks to declare a theocratic state, and are recklessly killing Muslim civilians in their attempt to pacify the minorities in their southern provinces.

Just from Korean history alone, one of the previous dynasties was toppled in large part because their patronage of Buddhist monks and temples led to rampant corruption and opulence at the expense of the local populace. Their meddling and corruption in national politics was so bad that the next dynasty came in and suppressed them aggressively to prevent a repeat, breaking up entire orders and driving them into seclusion in the mountains.

This is not to say that Buddhism is inherently evil or something as their faith has contributed a lot to the rich fabric of Asian cultures and also teaches about peace and harmony. However, as stated before, they're no better or worse than other religions. That, and as JCASHFAN put it, "Humans - A species of violence or peace?"

[Edited on September 18, 2007 at 2:26 PM. Reason : stupid commas.]

9/18/2007 2:25:51 PM

oh, wow. sorry, man

i thought you were being sarcastic, as if implying that Buddhism was free of conflict -- which explains why i totally didnt get what you were saying

truthfully, i didn't know about those specific examples you cited... I guess it's even worse than I thought.

how about i shut up for a bit now. its hard to talk with this foot in my mouth anyways...






[Edited on September 18, 2007 at 4:16 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2007 4:11:22 PM

theres nothing wrong with discussing Islam, but the title of this thread is pure stupidity.

for someone talking about "getting educated" in the first post, i would hope you could do a bit better on the title than that.

9/19/2007 1:14:42 PM

I thought about making a thread about how Jews are taking over the world economy.

but then i decided not to.

9/19/2007 1:19:09 PM

Here's the problem - The US military is in Iraq on the basis of false accusations. This means a foreign power is unjustly occupying muslim land and trying to install a secular government. This seems like a recipe for disaster.

Good take on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_WgqUb8X6AA

A reminder of the consequences of going into Iraq.

9/20/2007 6:17:28 PM

"Muslims. Double Muslims, them's the ones you don't want to f*** with—dem double Muslims. 'Cause them motherf***ers can't wait to get to Allah. And want to take eight or nine motherf***ers with 'em." - Richard Pryor,

9/20/2007 9:11:12 PM

How many wars have been waged in the name of Jesus Christ? To pose the question to be specific to one viewpoint and not to another, very similar (religions that people would die or kill for) one is asinine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

As people already brought up here, there is plenty of violence in Buddhism. There were (and I believe still are to some degree) various conflicts between the Hindus and Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence - Mormons are fucking crazy.

There is violence present in a lot of religions. Read the Torah/Old Testament. God was all about telling people to kill or wage wars or whatever. I imagine Muslims are so hostile towards the western world because all we do is rape them of their lands and cultural identity. The Middle East lacked real borders (for the most part) until the 20th century, and now wars over land are fought. We're fighting a war over there that we don't have any right in fighting and we wonder why they're violent towards us?

9/21/2007 1:29:05 AM

if you're trying to have a serious discussion about legitimate mainstream religions, you can't bring Mormonism in as an example.

i mean, you might as well point to Scientology and Branch Davidians while you're at it.



[Edited on September 21, 2007 at 3:12 AM. Reason : ]

9/21/2007 3:09:32 AM

Quote :

"We're fighting a war over there that we don't have any right in fighting "

do you want to pay $9 a gallon?

9/21/2007 10:15:44 AM

^ Whoa, so you're saying that going to war with another country for no reason other than not having to pay $9 a gallon is a war worth fighting.

I highly doubt that any family who has lost a loved one in this war would say that their life was worth losing so that they didnt have to pay too much in gas....

9/21/2007 10:29:04 AM

i had a cousin over there with the Marines. fortunately he came back in one piece.

and no i don't think its worth fighting over. the sooner we bite the bullet in our petrodollar dependant economy, the sooner we can move to solar energy.

it just took me a shamefully long time to admit to myself what this war was about. the writing's always been on the wall.

9/21/2007 10:49:40 AM

Quote :

"There's a lot to read, but generally jihad is broken down into 2 parts - Greater and Lesser jihad. The Lesser refers to broadly to warfare, protecting oneself and family, and for expanding Islam."

What I've bolded will tell you all that you need to know about Islam and why it needs to fucking go. Religion can be a great thing. It has the capacity to change lives and entire societies for the better. However, any religion that has converting others at the point of a sword as a main principle need to go.

9/21/2007 10:53:22 AM

Quote :

"do you want to pay $9 a gallon?"

Did u pull this figure out of your ass. If anything the Iraq War has increased gas prices by..

a. Increase in demand for fuel to power all the tanks, transport vehicles, helicopters, etc to fight the war in Iraq

b. The disruption of Iraq's oil productions due to all the civil trife

9/21/2007 11:22:21 AM

Islam often gets painted with a broad and largely unfair brush, however, that is due to their own doing. 2 things:

1. the lack of a united, moderate Muslim voice (culture) that does anything to combat the radical sect physically and in the media.

2. the use of barborous and humilitating policies and punishments against their own.

These two things add up to the view that Islam is a religion of violence, regardless of the intent of its founders.

9/21/2007 11:50:56 AM

next time you go to spell

Quote :

"barborous"

i want you to think of Jane Fonda's pointy space bra.

9/21/2007 6:44:35 PM

thanks

9/21/2007 7:09:38 PM

damn image protecting whores.

9/21/2007 7:51:36 PM

wow, who'd a thought a thread on the violence in Islam would bring up Barbarella.

I'll say this much, Islam is as intrinsically peaceful as Barbarella is dignified.

9/22/2007 12:27:52 PM

Quote :

"Whoa, so you're saying that going to war with another country for no reason other than not having to pay $9 a gallon is a war worth fighting."

At the $9 mark, you're approaching (if not past) a point where the American economy would start to collapse, so maybe.

Quote :

"If anything the Iraq War has increased gas prices"

yes, with the caviat that the rise in gas is also attributable to the larger increase in consumption of petroleum products by China and India.

9/24/2007 2:58:14 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/16/artist.controversy/index.html


I love how peaceful Muslims everywhere threaten to end someones life over a CARTOON, again.

I think every newspaper in the democratic world should run full, front page cartoons of the prophet as a dog or a pig or a bomb or whatever and see what happens.

10/16/2007 1:47:29 PM

^ But it's not all muslims - or even a majority.

Thats like me bitching about how peaceful Christians everywhere blow up abortion clinics.

10/16/2007 1:51:17 PM

^ yes, whatever happened to the freedom of speech.. isn't it >>> religion?

10/16/2007 1:52:58 PM

Except that I never said all Muslims.

Either way, this shit is ridiculous.


I WILL KILL YOU BUGS BUNNY FOR OFFENDING MY SENSE OF NATURE!!

10/16/2007 1:57:01 PM

Yea, it's primarily al quaeda that's out to kill this guy, not the general muslim population.


I'm sure the general population agrees it was poor taste to do that, but I'm sure they'd agree that 'piss christ' or whatever was pretty tasteless as well.

10/16/2007 1:57:45 PM

^^^ I never said anything about freedom of speech. Maybe I'm just missing your point.

Just for fun here's a website full of pissed off bible loving white people wanting to kill judges who don't persecute illegal immigrants:

http://www.halturnershow.com/

10/16/2007 2:14:17 PM

Not that they aren't equally as crazy, they are pissed because of an action and not because of a CARTOON.

10/16/2007 2:18:50 PM

^^ sorry was referring to the post above yours

10/16/2007 4:49:39 PM

Quote :

"Islam Religion - A religion philosophy of violence or peace?"

10/16/2007 10:43:24 PM

Quote :

"where is marko when you need him?"

nastoute

Since he's not here, I'll post this on his behalf.

10/17/2007 1:10:24 AM