http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/10/08/story2.html?b=1191816000^1530927

Quote :

"The average SAT score for students entering NCSU this fall is 1174. That is three points fewer than last year's average of 1177, and it marks the lowest average SAT score for an entering freshman class at the school since 1998. On the other side of the Triangle in Chapel Hill, SAT scores continue to climb, although the University of North Carolina has not seen the same pace of enrollment growth as NCSU. The 2007 freshman class entering UNC registered an average SAT score of 1302, the best in the school's history. "

Is expansion more important than quality?

Is the university operating too much like a corporation instead of a facility of public education?

10/8/2007 10:37:40 AM

umm, its NCstate. we will not be in the same class at UNC anytime soon.

live with it.

10/8/2007 10:41:07 AM

I wasn't making the comparison between NCSU and UNC, the Triangle Business Journal was. Furthermore, it should be marginally alarming for any NCSU degree holder to read this article.

It is somewhat akin to watching your stock drop.

10/8/2007 10:42:53 AM

Maybe the university looks at other qualities in the incoming freshman class besides a stupid relatively arbitrary test score.

SAT scores for entering college should be viewed like a college GPA for interviewing graduates. As long as you are not a moron with a shitty score then other criteria should be weighed more heavily.

I would rather a university enroll a kid with a 1050 SAT score but still graduated in the top 50 of their class, lettered in a varsity sport, was involved in community service, etc

then a geek with a 1400, that did nothing but play video games and study throughout highschool.

Of course when you get an exceptional student that got like a 1580 or a perfect score then the SAT should be recognized as a sign of achievement and high student aplitude

Quote :

"It is somewhat akin to watching your stock drop. "

I do not buy this bullshit and that attitude is very arrogant. Someone with a 700 SAT score can attend community college and if they have decent grades after 30 hours; transfer to NCSU and get the same certificate (likely different major) as you are getting. Unless NCSU started letting in students first year who substantially inferior high school resume's (not just SAT scores) and they lossened the academic standards and difficulty of courses within the university then I do not see your "stock" dropping.

I have known kids who had great academics in high school. Came to NCSU with a big head about being smart shit, barely putting any effort into college school work, then going home for good following their first year. Alternatively, I know kids who either b.c they were too busy with sports or did not put much attention into school were average high school students. They either squeezed into NCSU or transferred from a community college. Knowing they need to get their shit together worked hard and excelled in college.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 10:50 AM. Reason : l]

10/8/2007 10:44:04 AM

Comparing NCSU and UNC is completely idiotic. You need to compare State to nationwide trends for Science & Engineering Schools.

State also has a lower graduation rate compared to UNC. But, when you compare UNC to universities with a humanities focus and you compare State to schools with a tech focus, you will see that both schools hold their own against their peers.

10/8/2007 10:46:22 AM

Quote :

"Maybe the university looks at other qualities in the incoming freshman class besides a stupid relatively arbitrary test score."

10/8/2007 10:46:35 AM

NCSU will also turn away people who apply scoring real high on the SATs because why waste enrollment one someone who puts NCSU as a school of choice with a SAT that high, knowing that most likely they will not get in.

so if we actually did accept those people, and they did come here, then maybe the average will climb a bit

10/8/2007 10:47:18 AM

No definitions were found for aplitude.

10/8/2007 10:49:33 AM

The article indicates that NCSU does indeed look at other factors like GPA and class rank; however, the median SAT score is still seen by most people are a good indicator of class quality.


I understand that some people have trouble with certain forms of testing, but the question to me is why do we have to continue to let record numbers of freshmen begin each year if that is effectively reducing the value of the degree?

10/8/2007 10:49:58 AM

Quote :

" I would rather a university enroll a kid with a 1050 SAT score but still graduated in the top 50 of their class, lettered in a varsity sport, was involved in community service, etc then a geek with a 1400, that did nothing but play video games and study throughout highschool."

blah blah blah. keep telling yourself that.

people who use the "stupid arbitrary test score" excuse are just pissed because their own score sucked. like it or not, SAT score is a good indicator of good students, and I'm willing to bet that high SAT scores are also indicative of good all-around students and citizens, rather than the stereotypical videogame geek.

It is not a good sign that NCSU's average SAT score is declining while its enrollment is accelerating. NC State should almost certainly attempt to be more selective in their admissions in order to maintain a high concentration of smart and good students.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 10:54 AM. Reason : .]

10/8/2007 10:51:48 AM

Quote :

"I understand that some people have trouble with certain forms of testing, but the question to me is why do we have to continue to let record numbers of freshmen begin each year if that is effectively reducing the value of the degree?"

No No No. read my edit above. you are applying skewed logic. SAT scores can be correlated into doing "well" in college. There are too many other variables though to say a decrease in incoming class SAT scores devalues your degree. If the internal academic difficulty of NCSU degrees stay the same then any "dumb" kids who have lesser SAT scores and can not handle the college level of difficulty will be eliminated from the system.

10/8/2007 10:55:02 AM

and really.... 1170 is embarrassingly low for a tier 1 college.
I would like to see what the average is for those coming into the Engineering College.

10/8/2007 10:57:23 AM

Quote :

"it marks the lowest average SAT score for an entering freshman class at the school since 1998."

<--- '98 freshman class!

10/8/2007 11:00:31 AM

Quote :

"people who use the "stupid arbitrary test score" excuse are just pissed because their own score sucked. like it or not,"

I got a 1300 on the SAT so do not feed me the "only ugly girls say beauty in on the inside" crap. I had a friend who got a perfect Math and 1490 SAT and after being at NCSU for 2 years and is not sitting in a jail cell for drug dealing.

NCSU also has a large AGR program including a 2-year technical degree; as well as the design school. I am not saying that these kids are dumb. However, I imagine their avg SAT school is lower then the average kid applying for NCSU COE or UNC Pre-Law program.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 11:03 AM. Reason : l]

10/8/2007 11:01:53 AM

there are so many problems with the SAT

its really not a good gauge of potential performance

10/8/2007 11:03:28 AM

it would be better to see the scores after they break them up in math and english

10/8/2007 11:08:35 AM

Quote :

"I would like to see what the average is for those coming into the Engineering College."

It would be interesting to see the breakdown by college.

10/8/2007 11:09:33 AM

problems with the SAT or not, in the end, smart people will do well on it.

here are stats from 2006
http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/admissions/sat/advhandbook_table2.htm
It looks like only the colleges of Engineering, Design and Math are above the average.

10/8/2007 11:13:53 AM

Quote :

"NCSU will also turn away people who apply scoring real high on the SATs because why waste enrollment one someone who puts NCSU as a school of choice with a SAT that high, knowing that most likely they will not get in. so if we actually did accept those people, and they did come here, then maybe the average will climb a bit"

Say what? You're saying that NCSU would deny someone admission because their SAT is too high? I think that's a little unlikely...really. The argument that someone wouldn't consider NCSU because they could get into a "better" school doesn't really hold water. There are more factors than just the best school someone can possibly get into...availability of scholarships, location, price, desired major...I know a large number of people who came here with SAT scores over 1500.

10/8/2007 11:14:48 AM

you do know there is a wide admission opening for agriculture right? you know, when just about anyone can get in... now if they manage to stay that's something else.

^^ CALS isn't even on there! (vet, bio, biochem etc)

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 11:16 AM. Reason : s]

10/8/2007 11:14:51 AM

Quote :

"SAT is a de facto IQ Test A Press release from the American Psychological Society: SAT measures more than student performance, research shows it is also a reliable measure of IQ Each year thousands of high school students take the Scholastic Assessment Test, or SAT, hoping to gain admission to the college of their choice. Colleges and universities use SAT scores to help project a prospective student's performance. But research shows there is more to the SAT, that it is really an intelligence test. Meredith C. Frey and Douglas K. Detterman, researchers at Case Western Reserve University, have shown that students' SAT test scores correlate as highly as, and sometimes higher than, IQ tests correlate with each other. This is strong evidence that the SAT is a de facto intelligence test. Their findings will be published in the June issue of Psychological Science, a journal of the American Psychological Society. While this finding may be surprising to many who take the test, it was no surprise to the researchers. The origins of the SAT can be traced back to intelligence tests that were originally given to screen entrants into the armed forces. Many who study intelligence had suspected that the SAT was an intelligence test though it seems no one had ever investigated the relationship. The Case investigators studied the SAT for two reasons. First, they were looking for an easy way to obtain a measure of IQ for students who participate in their experiments on more basic cognitive processes. Giving an IQ test can take 30 to 90 minutes, and with a correlation between IQ and SAT scores, researchers now have a fairly accurate estimate of an individual's IQ without the need to administer a lengthy test. Second, it is useful to know the relationship between the SAT and IQ so that SAT could be used as a measure of IQ in cases where patients' IQs decline due to head injury or diseases like Alzheimer's. It is often important to know what a person's level of intellectual functioning was before the onset of the decline and many people have taken the SAT. According to the researchers, for those who have never taken an IQ test, the SAT could be used as a substitute."

y'all dumb

10/8/2007 11:18:56 AM

here's the same chart as above broken down into Math and Verbal

10/8/2007 11:20:10 AM

in the end, though, employers look at the quality of the program and the quality of the student coming out of college. not the quality of the student going in to college.

i guarantee that there isn't a single employer out there that is going to bat an eyelash at a drop in average sat score by 3 points.

10/8/2007 11:21:44 AM

yeah, until employers start noticing that there are a lot of garbage engineers and programmers coming out of State.....

10/8/2007 11:22:54 AM

and that hasnt happened yet, so its a moot point.

10/8/2007 11:23:49 AM

we were mediocre before, we're mediocre now

10/8/2007 11:23:52 AM

Here is a little more fuel in case some of you didn't read the article:

Quote :

"The only UNC System school besides NCSU to see SAT scores fall each year between 2003 and 2006 is East Carolina University."

We are following some of the same trends as EZU.

Also, I am betting that a lot of people are batting eyelashes at this article. A large number of executives and underlings alike read the TBJ for local business news.

10/8/2007 11:26:14 AM

if an employer's opinion is indeed influenced by this article, they probably aren't worth working for in the first place.

10/8/2007 11:28:26 AM

Quote :

"yeah, until employers start noticing that there are a lot of garbage engineers and programmers coming out of State"

You are retarded their is a difference btw lowering incoming freshman standards and decreasing the difficulty and accreditation of our degree programs. If nothing else the school is pumping in some extra $$dough from students who might end up not cutting it and dropping out. Thus subsidizing costs for everyone. What matters is the quality/difficulty of the program and the students leaving the university.

10/8/2007 11:28:40 AM

on the radio this past week(I am in Texas) they talked about a student at NCSU that decided to keep growing his goatee and not even trim it or anything...said that 2 of his friends tried but shaved it, but he still is going strong....forgot the name....he was the radio stations douchebag of the day. The quoted him and everything.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 11:32 AM. Reason : w]

10/8/2007 11:31:51 AM

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105

for what it's worth, this is the only college ranking that i put any stock in--ncsu is conspicuously absent from the list

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 11:33 AM. Reason : &]

10/8/2007 11:32:29 AM

Quote :

"NCSU also has a large AGR program including a 2-year technical degree; as well as the design school. I am not saying that these kids are dumb. However, I imagine their avg SAT school is lower then the average kid applying for NCSU COE or UNC Pre-Law program."

You obviously have no idea how difficult it is to get into the College of Design.

I'm glad the graph cleared that up.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 11:42 AM. Reason : ha]

10/8/2007 11:37:32 AM

^^that looks like a fluff study. it ranks schools based on their desirability to students. i went to the school that fits me the best, not what fits everyone else the best. that sounds like nothing more then a popularity contest.

desirability to employers is far more important if you're using college as a means of obtaining a job.





[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 11:40 AM. Reason : f]

10/8/2007 11:37:42 AM

didn't SATs get bumped up to like 2100 or something

yall some DUMBASSES then

10/8/2007 11:44:00 AM

sober and HUR - you guys keep telling yourselves this stuff. whatever helps make you feel better.
Hell, if it makes you happy, you can say NCSU is as good as MIT or Stanford! SAT scores be damned!

10/8/2007 11:48:17 AM

^^^essentially, it says that NC State wasn't preferred by the 3,200 "high-achieving students" surveyed over any other college that was ranked--not the group as a whole, not among technical majors, not even for the southeast region...in other words, if it came down to a choice between NCSU and another school in the list, no one would ever pick NCSU...

to me, that makes a powerful statement about how people view the university

10/8/2007 11:52:45 AM

my girlfriend just graduated from UNC in may. she got a 1460 on her SAT. she doesn't know who Stephen hawking is or what a mole(chemistry) is.

10/8/2007 12:02:35 PM

ive never said we are as good as MIT or stanford.

im not saying that this doesnt matter to me....i want the best for my school. im just pointing out that from an employers perspective (atleast from what ive seen in my experiences with recruiting), this has very little impact. if this starts affecting the quality of student that comes out of the university, then things will change. but ive seen nothing that shows that yet.

Quote :

"in other words, if it came down to a choice between NCSU and another school in the list, no one would ever pick NCSU..."

so what? why should i care what they picked? again, im not concerned with what other students think...im more interested in an employers perspective, and that study doesnt take that into account.

Quote :

"to me, that makes a powerful statement about how people view the university"

no, thats a statement about how students view the university. i dont care about that.


[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 12:09 PM. Reason : ']

10/8/2007 12:04:34 PM

I took ENG101 with a Parks scholar who never had higher math than...trig, if I recall. It was a few years ago.

10/8/2007 12:04:51 PM

THIS ARTICLE IS BULLSHIT...ANYONE WHO THINKS THIS WILL HURT THE UNIVERSITY'S CREDIBILITY OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T KNOW SHIT...

10/8/2007 12:06:09 PM

Quote :

"sober and HUR - you guys keep telling yourselves this stuff. whatever helps make you feel better. Hell, if it makes you happy, you can say NCSU is as good as MIT or Stanford! SAT scores be damned!"

You are completely misinterpreting my argument. Yes SAT score does matter to a point. However, it is not and should not be the top criteria or one of the top 3 criteria for evaluating the quality of an incoming student. Someone getting a 1500 (on the old 1600 scale) does not mean they will show up all smiley faced ready to research, be a campus leader, and excel with a 4.0 in their field of study. On the other hand someone entering with a 1000 does not mean they are going to water down the education, fail out, and be shitty students.

Like for myself I think I could have done better than a 1300. However, I am not much of a morning person and know I was not running full steam showing up at 8 AM to take the SAT; nor am I good at focusing on filling in bubbles for a near continuous 3 hours.

10/8/2007 12:09:56 PM

Quote :

"so what? why should i care what they picked? again, im not concerned with what other students think...im more interested in an employers perspective, and that study doesnt take that into account"

college-bound seniors, particularly high-achieving students, don't simply pull a university out of a hat; they strive to get into the best university. and considering the time and attention they devote to it, i doubt there is any group of people better able to make that determination. if NCSU can't attract the best-qualified applicants, then neither will they have the best-qualified graduates--not simply because of the student themselves, but because there is a fundamental deficiency between NCSU and the rest of the scholastic world. it may not be obvious now, but it will become more apparent with time and the consequences will eventually propagate through the system.

10/8/2007 12:32:57 PM

Quote :

"Hippler said the Hillsborough Street location was the chain's biggest revenue source, selling more than 100,000 pizza pies a year."

Sanitation Grade 60.5

10/8/2007 12:37:34 PM

Quote :

" i doubt there is any group of people better able to make that determination. "

so a group of students with no college experience is the most qualified to choose which schools are the country's best? i think not. its nothing more then a popularity contest.

id much rather trust the opinion of an employer who's is putting their money and name on the line to hire an employee from a specific school.

Quote :

"if NCSU can't attract the best-qualified applicants, then neither will they have the best-qualified graduates"

thats not logically true. even if a school brings in the best high schoolers, if the program isnt good, they aren't going to produce the best graduates. having good students certainly helps, but you always have to have a good program. thats why (from an electrical/computer engineering degree standpoint) im not worried about this. i know ncsu's program is very good, and a 3 point drop in sat scores will have little impact on employer's opinions.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM. Reason : d]

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 12:46 PM. Reason : d]

10/8/2007 12:41:25 PM

^^ Looks like that NCSU education is rubbing off on local proprietors.

Take your number source of revenue and stupidly allow it to be degraded due to lack of almost any standards.

NCSU is following the Gumby's Business Model-->take your number one source of revenue (students) and allow the product they purchase to be degraded (the degree) due to a lack of higher standards (SAT)

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 12:42 PM. Reason : ^]

10/8/2007 12:42:04 PM

Quote :

"people who use the "stupid arbitrary test score" excuse are just pissed because their own score sucked. like it or not, SAT score is a good indicator of good students,"

You are fucking kidding.

Right?

I got a 1310, and while I consider that the lower end of mediocre, I know that most people don't.

And I do agree that the SAT rather sucks ass as any sort of indicator of a student's worth. In my case, simply having an excellent vocabulary, very basic math skills, and having read many, many books in my life resulted in a 1310. There's no reason that my score should be considered a 'good' one, but apparently, it is. (730 verbal, 580 math)

Quote :

"I would rather a university enroll a kid with a 1050 SAT score but still graduated in the top 50 of their class, lettered in a varsity sport, was involved in community service, etc then a geek with a 1400, that did nothing but play video games and study throughout highschool."

10/8/2007 12:46:16 PM

this thread is stupid

sat means something only once in your life, and thats to get you into college, after that its irrelevant

10/8/2007 12:52:56 PM

SAT only matters in undergrad.

But then your first job often depends on undergrad.

First job often sets the tone of your first salary upon which you have to build.

Lower tiered schools with lower tiered students have to spend years achieving the salary that other students from other more selective universities enjoy, all else being equal.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 12:58 PM. Reason : dsf]

10/8/2007 12:57:08 PM

hahaha

i absolutely love people just like you

10/8/2007 12:58:11 PM

Quote :

"I would rather a university enroll a kid with a 1050 SAT score but still graduated in the top 50 of their class, lettered in a varsity sport, was involved in community service, etc then a geek with a 1400, that did nothing but play video games and study throughout highschool"

i agree 100%
At least these kids have a balanced life and can juggle not only school but social and service activities as well.

Lettering in a varsity sport and participating also shows the potential for leadership

I think its clear that agentlion fits in the "a geek with a 1400, that did nothing but play video games and study throughout highschool" category

10/8/2007 12:58:15 PM