....that have no idea what they want.




I want to slam my head against the wall. This project should have been better planned.



The navigation and site design has changed three times. It always seems to need to morph into something new as soon as I get it functional and mostly smoothed out.

10/10/2007 2:01:01 PM

mhum.... they don't know what they want, but they sure know what they don't want, when they see it.

10/10/2007 2:03:12 PM

its for my job.



so im not even getting paid extra.



and it's putting me behind schedule on shop work.



he came to me after spending two nights fucking around with PUBLISHER. HE WAS GOING TO USE MICROSOFT PUBLISHER TO CREATE A WEBSITE.


it made my eyes bleed.

[Edited on October 10, 2007 at 2:09 PM. Reason : OFFICE 97]

10/10/2007 2:06:59 PM

Quote :

"that have no idea what they want."

that's why I quit doing webpages for other people about 8 years ago.

10/10/2007 2:09:27 PM

i've also got 3 other people putting their "opinions" in.

10/10/2007 2:10:45 PM

If they're serious about it tell them to hire a professional and stop kidding around (not to slight any skills you may or may not have, but it doesn't sound like your primary function). This is one of those fields where you usually get what you pay for.

10/10/2007 2:26:15 PM

he's cheap.


It's a relatively simple design.


I've already demonstrated the ability.

10/10/2007 2:34:13 PM

You are experiencing back seat designing and scope creep.

Both things are YOUR fault, not theirs.

Your primary responsibility as a designer is to find the needs of your client (in this case your boss and company) and translate those needs into informed plans for implementation.

YOU need to determine why the company even needs a website, what it needs to be able to do and WHY. You should have verifiable answers for any and every difference of opinion you have both in visual design and organization as well as functionality and implementation.

Back Seat design happens when the client doesn't have faith in, or understand the decisions of the designer.

Scope creep happens when the designer didn't put in his work before he put pencil to paper.

The fact he was using Publisher to create the site is irrelevant. At the end of the day it may not even matter what the site looks like so long as it does what it needs to do in order to further the business.

[Edited on October 10, 2007 at 2:59 PM. Reason : .]

10/10/2007 2:57:40 PM

I think he's just picky as hell.



the three designs have accomplished the same things, in almost identical ways.

10/10/2007 3:13:53 PM

Quote :

"HE WAS GOING TO USE MICROSOFT PUBLISHER TO CREATE A WEBSITE. "

ahahaha this makes me lose all hope for humanity

10/10/2007 3:30:45 PM

I said Dreamweaver + Notepad




he said huh? frontpage?

10/10/2007 3:35:08 PM

only things i ever have used and ever will use are notepad and photoshop

that's it

10/10/2007 3:58:58 PM

Quote :

"I think he's just picky as hell. the three designs have accomplished the same things, in almost identical ways."

That's his job.

If you can justify your decisions, why shouldn't he pick them apart?

And what's the point in doing three designs if they all do the same things in the same ways? By the time you get to finished designs, there should major discernible design directions for each one. You seem to be confusing styling, design, and functionality as all being the same thing.

10/10/2007 4:00:12 PM

Quote :

" If you can justify your decisions, why shouldn't he pick them apart?"

?

10/10/2007 4:14:14 PM

why would you use dreamweaver and notepad? its like using photoshop and MS paint lol.

10/10/2007 4:42:36 PM

notepad for quick edits


and on systems that dont have dreamweaver installed.



i just like the code-view in dreamweaver. pretty colors. I could get the same effect from 1029381 different programs, im sure.

10/10/2007 4:45:16 PM

dreamweaver has a lot of great useful features that other programs have also but its more than pretty colors. Site management and testing servers etc....

10/10/2007 5:03:53 PM

honestly



i don't use most of the features that dreamweaver offers. I'm a control freak, so i like to upload the files myself.

10/10/2007 5:05:14 PM

If you can't justify your decisions, why shouldn't he pick them apart?

Oops, missed the 't. Good catch

Being a control freak costs a lot of time and money. Tools are there for a reason and generally it's to make your life easier.

10/10/2007 5:10:33 PM

Probably true.



I've noticed that he and I differ on the subject. What I know doesn't matter.



So I've given in and started to create the website as he wants. Nice and obscure.

10/10/2007 5:16:05 PM

I begrudgingly agreed to redo the website of a friend's father's business. It's a childhood friend, and I kind of know his father too. He's had the same website since 1996, back when his business was more research, now he's trying to turn it into an actual commercial business.

Problem is, the guy actually likes his current website and thinks it's pretty great. it was my friend who convinced his dad that it's really no good and he needs to get it updated. I agreed to give it a shot, but I knew from the first time I talked to him that it was going to be difficult.

Check out the site that he thinks is "quite good" and "as good or better than his competitors". (i've blurred out identifying text to try not to insult anyone)




..... seriously. he actually likes this website. Once you drill down into the so-called navigation, it gets even worse - harder to read and nearly impossible to navigate.

i gave it a look and talked him through several things I'd like to do with it to make the look a lot more friendly and easy on the eyes, and vastly improve the organization. He just kind of grunted, and his only input was "well... i really like the logo. do you think you could make it animated, so the cart moves across the top of the screen and the guy is shoveling the shit out of it as he moves?" (this is a compost company, btw). I said "ummmm, ok.... i'll see what i can do with that"

anyway, i came back with 2 quite good designs pototypes, 1000% better than the existing one, and still managed to keep that f'ing shit-shoveler logo somewhat incorporated (although not animated, of course), and the feed back was:
"hmmm, yeah..... here's more of what I was thinking. Couldn't you just take the current website, and, maybe just change the font?"

oh well.... it's an informal relationship, and I agreed to do it for an otherwise embarrassingly low amount of money. Then I found out that the only way he agreed to change the site at all was if his son (my long-time friend) paid for half of it. So once I found that out, I told my friend there is no way I'm taking money from him to update his dad's shitty website. I still haven't figured out what to do with it. been kind of avoiding it for a couple weeks. I will probably come back with an ultimatum: If I agree to overhaul the site, then I have to have creative control over it. I will gladly take feedback and criticism, but you have to trust me for the overall design and structure. I'm not going to put my name on something that looks like shit just because you have a shitty eye for web design. I'll even do it for 1/2 the original amount, because it will give me more experience, and it will be worth it to take the existing POS website off the internet forever.

[Edited on October 10, 2007 at 5:54 PM. Reason : .]

10/10/2007 5:46:47 PM

Quote :

"So I've given in and started to create the website as he wants. Nice and obscure."

btw - if you read some Andy Rutledge columns you can get some ideas for how to talk to clients.
He's a professional designer and is quite confident (i.e. cocky) with his design skills, so he is able to tell his clients "look - trust me. i'm good at design. you're not. you're good at making widgets. i'm good at making websites. So you keep making your widgets, we'll talk, then I'll make you a website. I don't need your assistance for designing the website."
http://www.andyrutledge.com/

doing that takes a lot of confidence (and real, actual skill, of course). I get stuck in the rut of telling people I make sites for (as a hobby, not even close to professionally) "i'll do whatever you want, it's your site", even if that ends up harming the site in the end.

10/10/2007 5:52:05 PM

Quote :

"If I agree to overhaul the site, then I have to have creative control over it. I will gladly take feedback and criticism, but you have to trust me for the overall design and structure. I'm not going to put my name on something that looks like shit just because you have a shitty eye for web design. I'll even do it for 1/2 the original amount, because it will give me more experience, and it will be worth it to take the existing POS website off the internet forever."

This is the right thing to do. I dont know about the 1/2 the money part, but that's on you.

^He is RIGHT ON.

If a client tries to refute my design decisions, I calmly give them my own version of the "you make things, I design things" argument. I've walked away from MANY projects because of this. And a not insignificant number of clients have come back to me later and given me the trust and decision making ability I should have had in the first place.

As a consultant in ANY industry, the consultant needs to have control of their element. As soon as a client asserts dominance over a consultant, you need to get out, because nothing good is going to come of it. It's unfortunate that web design has become this hobbyist industry with so many unqualified and incapable people trying to do the work.

10/10/2007 6:14:40 PM