It's pretty much a self-explanatory sport. I mean, you can't really dictate where the ball will travel after it's struck. I can see children being taught the sport (all the funamentals) but on a professional level, it seems pointless. Manager = coach, basically. Prime example Joe Torre is getting all this crap and blame for these grown men. You feel where im going with this?

10/17/2007 1:30:23 AM

what is with all the terrible threads in ST lately?

10/17/2007 1:33:21 AM

/message_topic.aspx?topic=400622

10/17/2007 1:33:43 AM

^^I'm experimenting with Laissez-faire.

It does not appear to be going well.

10/17/2007 1:36:25 AM

Just a simple but rather philosophical question my main man. Chill out. In all seriousness, hence

football, there are plays to be coached.
basketball " " "
soccer " " "

But baseball, you just hit the ball. Why the need for extensive coaching? Do all grown men require leaders or teams will resort to totall complete anarchy? In baseball the manager basically babysits.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:39 AM. Reason : .]

10/17/2007 1:36:50 AM

Nothing can save you now

10/17/2007 1:37:41 AM

you have to manage the pitching rotation, etc

come on

10/17/2007 1:38:08 AM

If thats it then, that isn't necessarily managing. And he's not really needed.

10/17/2007 1:40:58 AM

Man, you guys are dense. Im not attempting to "bash" your sport alright. Just wanted to engage in a rational conversational. But it appears noone here has the brain cells to do so.

10/17/2007 1:45:54 AM

originated as the sport got bigger out of the player-manager, you do need to have someone to manage the lineup, rotation, make various strategic decisions (call in a steal, bunt, etc) and just as there was more money, attention, and such this became a full position as opposed to just a team captain type setup

10/17/2007 1:53:48 AM

yea i mean wutz with that coach that just standz there on 3rd base and does all these goofy things with his hayundz...i think he is ocd or sumthin

10/17/2007 2:15:21 AM

Quote :

"But baseball, you just hit the ball."

no, no you don't.

you can bunt. you can attempt to hit a certain side of the field, pop, chop, homerun, base hit etc

and on defense you caoch the infield on what to expect based on what the hitter might want to do and what the pitcher might give up.

roations? batting order? when to take the ball from a pitcher? when to send in the closer? when to pinch hit? who to pinch hit? what to tell a pitcher if you need to meet at the mound. arguing calls.

what creeps me out about baseball is that its the only "team" sport that is constantly one on one. 90% of the game is between the pitcher and the guy at bat wheras in basketball hockey and soccer there are constatnly 10-22 guys going at it at the same time.

Quote :

"you have to manage "

joe torre couldn't amanage to remove my cock from his mouth

10/17/2007 2:24:18 AM

Quote :

"I'm experimenting with Laissez-faire. It does not appear to be going well."

not at all, sir.

10/17/2007 7:08:59 AM

I think managers/coaches are overrated in every sport, it's up to the players on the field to produce.

10/17/2007 7:46:35 AM

Honestly, baseball is probably the second most strategy driven sport out there, behind football. AL ball is mindnumbing sometimes but real baseball, like they play in the NL is amazing to watch if you understand it.

Not only do you have to set the lineup versus different type pitchers differently everyday, you have to make moves based on both numbers and feeling all the time (bullpen usage). Then comes the every play decisions of when to hit and run, when to steal, when to give the take/hit sign, defensive positioning that affects games all the time, double switches, defensive substitions, sac bunts, squeeze plays... the list goes on and on. It's a heck of a lot harder than deciding to switch from zone to man to man..

I never really got why people feel the need to bash something they don't understand. I don't understand Aussie Rules Football... so therefore I don't make ignorant comments and ask dumb questions about it...

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 11:22 AM. Reason : x]

10/17/2007 11:19:48 AM

Quote :

"what creeps me out about baseball is that its the only "team" sport that is constantly one on one"

defintely incorrect depending on your definition of a team sport. Wrestling meets are team vs team and the team scores are decided by 14(more or less depending on state if HS or college level etc) completely individual matches.

10/17/2007 11:28:33 AM

why is everyone letting this alias troll them?

10/17/2007 11:30:41 AM

so this guy is trying to argue that a baseball team under no management would be successful in MLB? What a joke. You must have never played baseball? In fact, you must have never seen a baseball game.

10/17/2007 11:59:10 AM

um Walter who in the HELL are you? You have the audacity to talk alias.

Quote :

"so this guy is trying to argue that a baseball team under no management would be successful in MLB?"

Yeah, basically. What im doing here is "degrading" the role of a manager. I just don't think his role is really "all that" important. After he lines the guys up, rotations etc, his job is done. Normally the players decide if they want to steal a base or not. And every player that comes to bat tries his hardest to knock a homer.

my point; this sport requiret the least amount of "coaching" when compared to other team sports. So why do people make big deals about these defenseless managers? There is not that much stratagey in baseball. One guy tries to hit the ball, the other guy tries to strike you out.

10/17/2007 12:43:31 PM

Quote :

"Normally the players decide if they want to steal a base or not."

False assumption.

Quote :

"And every player that comes to bat tries his hardest to knock a homer."

False assumption.

Quote :

"There is not that much stratagey in baseball. One guy tries to hit the ball, the other guy tries to strike you out."

False assumption.

Jesus. Let me guess. The only teams you've ever watched play are the Yankees and Red Sox.

Tom Seaver and Jerry Koosman used to have $$$ contests. Not on how many strike outs they could get, but rather on how few pitches they could throw in an inning. Koosman would throw 4 pitches in an inning one game. Then the next, Seaver would throw 3. It's about getting outs for pitchers, not striking out batters. There are dozens of different situations that come up in which a batter is not trying to hit homeruns.

You have such a fundamental lack of knowledge about the sport that I find it laughable you are even trying to engage in a conversation about it.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:02 PM. Reason : x]

10/17/2007 1:00:06 PM

Quote :

"this sport requiret the least amount of "coaching" when compared to other team sports."

I challenge you to go to an NC State practice at Doak.

Quote :

"There is not that much stratagey in baseball"

I also challenge you to watch a single at-bat in a game. Don't go spouting that there is no strategy in baseball if you don't understand it.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:07 PM. Reason : a]

10/17/2007 1:05:25 PM

Quote :

"It's pretty much a self-explanatory sport. I mean, you can't really dictate where the ball will travel after it's struck. I can see children being taught the sport (all the funamentals) but on a professional level, it seems pointless. Manager = coach, basically. Prime example Joe Torre is getting all this crap and blame for these grown men. You feel where im going with this?"

this is why dumb people hate baseball



read these

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:10 PM. Reason : ]

10/17/2007 1:10:06 PM

Quote :

"but on a professional level, it seems pointless"

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 2004 27 ATL NL 154  570   85  149  34  4  29   91   6  6  71 147  .261  .345  .488  113  278   0   2   9   3  24
 2005 28 ATL NL 160  586   95  154  24  3  51  128   5  3  64 112  .263  .347  .575  133  337   0   7  13  15  19

10/17/2007 1:13:03 PM

so what the fuck happened to him this year?

10/17/2007 1:16:06 PM

regression toward the mean

--

for actual intellectual discussion (not message board trolling) about the role of managers and coaches in baseball, read these

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2007/03/quantifying_coa.php
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2007/03/quantifying_coa_1.php
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/03/the_mazzone_eff_1.php

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:22 PM. Reason : ]

10/17/2007 1:17:18 PM

Quote :

"And every player that comes to bat tries his hardest to knock a homer.""

How is this a false assumption? less than 15% batters actually bunt balls. Other than that, you try and knock the crap out of it to increase rbi.

Quote :

"There are dozens of different situations that come up in which a batter is not trying to hit homeruns. "

List me 5 situations if there are dozens. Hot shot, c'mon lets see what you guy. Guru.

10/17/2007 1:43:05 PM

no batter in the history of baseball can hit a homerun at will in a game situation

nine times out of ten, swinging for the fences is going to result in a pop up or a strikeout (re: ryan howard)

with men in scoring position, no batter in their right mind is trying to hit a home run

10/17/2007 1:46:37 PM

they are not coaches

they are managers

therefore, them managing the game is appropriate, and this thread is dumb.

10/17/2007 1:47:48 PM

Runner on 1st, no outs:

A) either take pitches to allow for a stolen base.
B) hit behind runner to move to second base.
C) sac bunt to move runner to second base.
D) if count allows, hit and run to try and get runner to third base.
E) if power hitter, try and hit into gap or out of park for RBI

There is 5 for only one situation. Hot shot.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:48 PM. Reason : x]

10/17/2007 1:48:10 PM

responding to this guy is as pointless as responding to Amsterdam or Salisburyboy

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:49 PM. Reason : s]

10/17/2007 1:48:49 PM

batting coach, pitching coach, bench coach, third base coach, etc

10/17/2007 1:49:07 PM

^^^yea...i just don't find that interesting at all

10/17/2007 2:04:03 PM

Ok... so?

10/17/2007 2:17:14 PM

Howard... the best GM in baseball (Billy Beane) agrees with you (and so do I)... don't let these asshats feed you a bunch of BS about hitting and pitching coaches.

I feel that managers really don't have a lot of responsibility. I mean these are professional players, they know how to hit, study their swing, etc. At this level a manager isn't going to make a huge difference. It is more about maximizing their talents by keeping everyone happy, adjusting very minor things, etc.

10/17/2007 2:36:11 PM

the best GM in baseball or the one with the most famous book?

how many world series trophies are in beane's office?

10/17/2007 3:24:27 PM

I used to think just like this guy. Then I watched a couple games. I suggest he does the same.

10/17/2007 3:37:19 PM

Walt...if you actually read the book you are referring to you will see that you are flat out wrong about Beane agreeing with this guy.

10/17/2007 3:43:55 PM

Yep.

Beane's theory is nearly 100% strategy based. It's just a different type of strategy from the mainstream. Though he does think managers are interchangable.

I don't think he ever states an opinion on guys who most think tend to overmanage, like Tony LaRussa...

10/17/2007 3:52:29 PM

Howard, you're an idiot. Go watch some soccer

10/17/2007 3:57:13 PM

I think the question is:

How can you post in Sports Talk?

10/17/2007 4:14:50 PM

for my money, baseball is THE MOST strategy driven game in sports unless you want to count chess as a sport.

as NyM410 pointed out, there are literally dozens of options to weigh for any number of situations which occur during a game(hundreds of situations can arise)

the manager and coaches are in charge of analyzing all of these options and relaying to the players on the field the best course of action. (you know, like most other sports). so to say managers are worthless is awfully dense. you definitely don't know much about the game

and this whole post goes down as one of the absolute dumbest in sports talk history:

Quote :

"Yeah, basically. What im doing here is "degrading" the role of a manager. I just don't think his role is really "all that" important. After he lines the guys up, rotations etc, his job is done. Normally the players decide if they want to steal a base or not. And every player that comes to bat tries his hardest to knock a homer. my point; this sport requiret the least amount of "coaching" when compared to other team sports. So why do people make big deals about these defenseless managers? There is not that much stratagey in baseball. One guy tries to hit the ball, the other guy tries to strike you out."

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

10/17/2007 4:41:31 PM

Quote :

"I mean these are professional players, they know how to hit, study their swing, etc. At this level a manager isn't going to make a huge difference. It is more about maximizing their talents by keeping everyone happy, adjusting very minor things, etc."

If this is correct, we're to assume that Leo Mazzone is a man of great luck who happens into coincidences a lot when it comes to improved pitching staffs?

Don't forget that those very minor things you speak of can make a major impact in crucial situations.

10/17/2007 4:50:14 PM

im not talking down on baseball and i agree it has a lot of strategy...but I dont think it is far and away the one that involves the most...I think it seems that way because the game pace is slower and there is MORE TIME to think about the different situations from both a player's and coache's standpoint.

I think if you look at something that football or soccer or lacrosse or basketball etc. there are just as many strategic moves made but many of them are made on the fly mid action or at a much quicker pace IE a quarterback makes SEVERAL strategic decisions and moves within a matter of seconds combined with each of his receivers, backs, etc.

10/17/2007 4:51:33 PM

Quote :

"Walt...if you actually read the book you are referring to you will see that you are flat out wrong about Beane agreeing with this guy."

Sorry, but you are wrong. I believe the exact quote called Art Howe a "middle-manager." That is why Beane let Art Howe go when he asked for a bigger contract, only to be picked up by the Mets. That is why Beane let Ken Macha go.

Look, my father coaches baseball. I've coached baseball. I played for a looooong time, I would wager more games than 99% of the people on this board. At the major league level, coaching, I would say, accounts for maybe like 5-10% a teams wins. Talent is everything. There isn't much difference between the worst manager in the league and the best.

Just an example: for the longest time Phil Gardner was considered to be a terrible manager (he was with the Brewer's) he takes over in Houston... TA-DA! The man is brilliant! Bruce Bochy, considered to be a great manager, takes over in SF and... trainwreck. There is no real consistency that a manager brings to a team's wins. The talent dictates the manager's wins.

There are only a handful of things that a manager has to do during a game:

1. When to bunt (pretty obvious, the other team usually even knows when it is coming)
2. When to steal/hit and run (your personnel pretty much determines this, most speedsters have the green light anyway)
3. When to pull a pitcher (probably the most important responsibility, but not too difficult)
4. When to pinch hit (lefty-righty is again, pretty easy to figure out)

Now, pitching coaches can be different, but again, you are talking about maximizing the talent you already have. Yeah, Mazzone was considered a top notch pitching coach, but he had loads of talent in Atlanta to work with, it isn't like he just turned Glavine into a super-star all by himself. (see Orioles).

10/17/2007 5:14:52 PM

there is the first e-peen sighting of this thread

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 5:22 PM. Reason : oh well]

10/17/2007 5:21:04 PM

Notice how I NEVER said that this sport didn't involve any strategy. Ofcourse, the pitcher's going to switch up the throws to strike the guy out ultimately. That's his only option (task). Minimal strategy whatsoever.

Quote :

" Runner on 1st, no outs: A) either take pitches to allow for a stolen base. B) hit behind runner to move to second base. C) sac bunt to move runner to second base. D) if count allows, hit and run to try and get runner to third base. E) if power hitter, try and hit into gap or out of park for RBI "

Hitting a homerun debunks this anyday. Bunts really don't work. Just allows for the double play in your (c) situation.

Quote :

"I feel that managers really don't have a lot of responsibility. "

Exactly, and everyone here wants to cry and immediately slam me for saying this. At the pro level, everyone is just about equally talented. Its just matter of who's "on" for that night. Some teams have more talent than others, but apparently that doesn't do much (yanks).

Quote :

"Howard, you're an idiot. Go watch some soccer"

And you need to learn how to have a discussion with people. Getting upset and bashing people is the easy way out when you don't agree with someone. Its okay to disagree, but do it with intelligence atleast.

Quote :

"for my money, baseball is THE MOST strategy driven game in sports unless you want to count chess as a sport. "

okay, good claim. But you backed it up with jack!! You made a very very very broad claim and scurried away from backing it up, like a jackass. I can do the same thing " hey guys, extreme ironing is the most strategy driven sport known to man"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olU947pcHeE

10/17/2007 5:23:14 PM

he's right ^

Baseball's pace highlights the situations more. there are many situations which call for strategic decisions. But there are also many at bats in a game where there a batter is swinging away, where most strategic decisions cuh as hitting backside or laying off a pitch are made by the individual player. Every Football play is highly coached. Just about every basketball play is called by a coach.

I do think that the decisions made in these siutations in baseball games usually have a bigger impact on the game....But I think is because there are less of them.

10/17/2007 5:24:30 PM

Quote :

"Bunts really don't work. Just allows for the double play in your (c) situation."

my god man you really haven't watched a game of baseball have you?

10/17/2007 5:30:35 PM

Give me the stats on bunting. The success rate. This is ashame, I gotta tell YOU how to argue against ME. When you know we're right. Most of you are in denail. Few see the light.


[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 5:34 PM. Reason : ^sounds like another dumb "right winger"]

10/17/2007 5:31:36 PM

^ Bunts work. Sorry, but they do two very important things:

Keeps you out of the double play.

Advances the runner to scoring position.

10/17/2007 5:34:38 PM