http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7343980?var=one&var=one&var=one&var=one

Quote :

"African-American football players caught up in the rebellion and buffoonery of hip hop culture have given NFL owners and coaches a justifiable reason to whiten their rosters. That will be the legacy left by Chad, Larry and Tank Johnson, Pacman Jones, Terrell Owens, Michael Vick and all the other football bojanglers."

Quote :

"It's already starting to happen. A little-publicized fact is that the Colts and the Patriots — the league's model franchises — are two of the whitest teams in the NFL. If you count rookie receiver Anthony Gonzalez, the Colts opened the season with an NFL-high 24 white players on their 53-man roster. Toss in linebacker Naivote Taulawakeiaho "Freddie" Keiaho and 47 percent of Tony Dungy's defending Super Bowl-champion roster is non-African-American. Bill Belichick's Patriots are nearly as white, boasting a 23-man non-African-American roster, counting linebacker Tiaina "Junior" Seau and backup quarterback Matt Gutierrez."

Some good points made here. I have to say that I agree. The NBA has suffered at the hands of the same 'culture.'

10/18/2007 5:00:06 PM

holy shit what a racist article

way to equate hip-hop culture with black people and turn it into a race battle right out of the gate instead of examining the socioeconomic conditions that create the avenues to pro sports versus other professions, i.e. exactly what happens in the NBA

10/18/2007 5:03:09 PM

Juan Williams writes for Fox Sports now?

Oh, it's Jason Whitlock. He will get criticized and ostracized by mainstream blacks.

10/18/2007 5:03:56 PM

Quote :

"bojanglers"

10/18/2007 5:06:48 PM

People from humble backgrounds get stupid when they strike it rich. This is nothing new and is not subject to any race barrier.

10/18/2007 5:09:20 PM

^^, ^^^^

you guys have never read or listened to whitlock eh?

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 5:14 PM. Reason : /]

10/18/2007 5:10:30 PM

^^ Agreed...and there are plenty of examples of African Americans that have been thrown into fame because of sports that have done pretty well with it (i.e. Donovan McNabb and Lebron James)

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 5:12 PM. Reason : im too slow]

10/18/2007 5:11:51 PM

^^^^^haha i thought it was wrote by him til i read your comment 3 times

Quote :

"way to equate hip-hop culture with black people and turn it into a race battle right out of the gate instead of examining the socioeconomic conditions that create the avenues to pro sports versus other professions"

is that when kids grow up idolizing the people they see on tv and music?

10/18/2007 5:13:15 PM

you thought it was wrote by who after reading what 3 times??

WHAT

10/18/2007 5:14:39 PM

Quote :

"way to equate hip-hop culture with black people"

i'm really tired of that argument. nobody is saying that:
All black people follow "hip-hop culture"
or
"hip-hop culture" is followed by black people exclusively

but really. You can't argue the fact that gangster/thug/hip-hop lifestyles are demonstrated and perpetuated on TV, in music, movies, and sports, largely by black people. Now why this is? I don't know, and it's certainly up for debate. But root causes or reasons aside, it's undeniable that hip-hop/rap/thug/gangster culture is perpetuated and followed more so (not exclusively or all inclusively, though) by blacks than whites or others.

-----
edit:
I should say, i don't really consider the "way to equate hip-hop culture with black people" statement an argument. It's more like, fake-offensiveness. You hear something that someone says that's generally regarded as true, and you get all riled up, "how dare you say that!"

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2007 5:19:20 PM

cue the twista

10/18/2007 5:19:58 PM

^^agreed

10/18/2007 5:20:58 PM

^^^

10/18/2007 5:23:49 PM

When I think of the problems stemming from the negative effects of hip hop culture on the African-American community, I don't typically associate the thought with professional athletes.

Here I was, thinking Michael Vick's influence came from Guy Ritchie's Snatch.

10/18/2007 5:23:51 PM

Quote :

"and all the other football bojanglers"

Who the fuck wrote this?

10/18/2007 5:24:54 PM

Quote :

"You can't argue the fact that gangster/thug/hip-hop lifestyles are demonstrated and perpetuated on TV, in music, movies, and sports, largely by black people. Now why this is? I don't know, and it's certainly up for debate. But root causes or reasons aside, it's undeniable that hip-hop/rap/thug/gangster culture is perpetuated and followed more so (not exclusively or all inclusively, though) by blacks than whites or others."

FTW

10/18/2007 5:31:10 PM

i thought it was the white man that was bringing down black people

10/18/2007 5:38:00 PM

Quote :

"^^ Agreed...and there are plenty of examples of African Americans that have been thrown into fame because of sports that have done pretty well with it (i.e. Donovan McNabb and Lebron James)"

Of course there are, just like there are examples of white folks that fuck up too. But the statistics don't lie. Thats all I'm saying.

10/18/2007 7:30:14 PM

bojanglers?

10/18/2007 7:49:21 PM

I love rap/hip hop but it def brings black people down.

Everything is nigger, hoe, killing, selling dope, sex, and all around bad things. And it will never change.

10/18/2007 8:15:46 PM

white people don't listen to hip hop

10/18/2007 8:21:31 PM

^^ you're listening to the wrong type of hip hop in my opinion

10/18/2007 8:27:40 PM

^^^ You just referred to sex as a bad thing. WTF?

10/18/2007 8:29:25 PM

^^ well, apparently the majority of black people are listenting to the "wrong" hip-hop too. This is the problem. Unfortunately for you/us/them, most young black (or white) people don't listen to The Roots or A Tribe Called Quest or whoever the "true hip-hop artists" are

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 8:30 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2007 8:29:41 PM

so....perhaps we shouldn't be blaming hip hop culture in and of itself. But rather blaming the media for propagating the content as widely and often as they do.

It's irresponsible for the people with the authority to put this content on TV and the Radio in the first place.

I know this is an extreme comparison, but we don't encourage rape in this country, right? When was the last time you say Nike in collaboration with MTV sponser "The Rape Sneaker - helps you run away faster" ?

10/18/2007 8:47:07 PM

what? so now it's the media's fault for playing that music instead of more socially responsible music?

now, i'll be the first to say that MTV and BET are full of shit and there's no way my (future) young children will be watching it, but seriously - they play that shit for a reason. BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE IT. Do you think that if the media just pulled together and stopped playing racist, sexist, misogynistic shit that young black (and white) kids will all of a sudden start listening to "socially responsible" music?

---
to be clear - i think it would be great if TV and radio started policing themselves and what they produce and play. but consumers have to take responsibility at some point.....

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 8:54 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2007 8:53:05 PM

^ I agree. It's easy to blame to media, but also very irresponsible. People act like if the media says something then everyone has to go out and do it. Where is the individual responsibility? Are people really that stupid and sheepish that they'll just do whatever they're told? Can't they possibly think for themselves at all?

10/18/2007 8:55:53 PM

I'm just following the logic of that article / this thread...

it seems to the belief that these youngsters are emulating what they see in the media. If that's true, then the media also in some way influences, but not determines this "hip hop culture". I'm not trying to derail this into a chicken came before the egg argument. All I'm saying is that the culture portrayed on TV influences people. It makes people think that if they belong to a certain culture, then they should act like the prominent figures in that culture. In effect, the media is creating a false culture for people to follow.

sure, anyone can say fucked up shit. who's fault is it that the message is spread?

Lord knows I don't see people bezzled out with diamonds everyday....only in stupid music videos. To illustrate that example, followers of this "hip hop" culture started trying to ice out their wrists, teeth, and put goddamn spinners on their chains.

I'm just saying that if you want to stop people from following this hip hop culture, it would be smart to show some responsibility and stop putting that trash on the air in the first place.

Sure, people are out to make money. That shouldn't mean people should breed this culture that they hate so much.

10/18/2007 9:06:05 PM

^Youngsters is the key word there.

Quote :

"to be clear - i think it would be great if TV and radio started policing themselves and what they produce and play. but consumers have to take responsibility at some point....."

The problem is that this stuff is being marketed to children. To demnad responsibility from our children is silly.

And to expect working parents to filter out the barrage of garbage thrown at their children is unrealistic.

So, yeah...

10/18/2007 9:24:11 PM

Quote :

"It makes people think that if they belong to a certain culture, then they should act like the prominent figures in that culture."

maybe the "prominent figures" should take responsibility. Of course, they're more interested in making money, and the media is all too happy to help them.

but any time Bill Cosby or Juan Williams or, in this case Jason Whitlock, step up and call out the "prominent figures", they are called Uncle Toms. And heaven forbid a white journalist says something about problems with hip-hop culture....


^ ok, well we know that MTV isn't going to stop. So.... it's either up to the customers (or their parents). ..... or the government, and we know how that would end.

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 9:27 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2007 9:25:31 PM

that's the thing....

the prominent figures that you and I consider important (the ones with something positive to say) aren't the voices that the media pushes into kid's heads 24/7. argue all you want, but the media decides who to put on, and who not to. the media chooses to put idiots on TV. idiots are a dime a dozen, so it's not hard to find them...

10/18/2007 9:30:39 PM

Quote :

"but consumers have to take responsibility at some point..... "

/thread

10/18/2007 9:44:53 PM

well, i was talking about the "prominent figures" of the hip-hop/rap culture. Now "culture" might not be the right word for what we are talking about. maybe the rappers and thugs we see on TV should just be considered promoting a "lifestyle" instead of "culture", because culture runs a lot deeper than music and clothes.

but yes.... the media is ultimately responsible for what they show. but they are following purely market forces. Even if MTV and BET and 102 JAMZ and everyone decided to up and stop playing and showing all that tomorrow, someone else would step up in their place and take their money.

really, in our economy, the options are this:
1) consumers revolt/boycott or change their tastes, and the media will follow
2) the media will self-police themselves and be responsible
3) the government will step in and regulate what is legal to play or show

i don't forsee any of those things happening

10/18/2007 9:55:53 PM

I don't really see any of that happening either without this becoming Nazi land

10/18/2007 10:13:10 PM

Do what the government usually does to de-incentivize bad behaviors.... tax it, heavily

10/18/2007 10:15:43 PM

nobody is holding a gun to anyones head and forcing them to listen to this sorry excuse for music/culture. They think its 'cool' Nothing will change that...certainly not when there are no parental role models.

10/18/2007 11:06:37 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIzEXSFm6dQ

10/18/2007 11:08:27 PM

Man, those roll models are hard to come by...you think you've got one, but they just keep rolling by...

10/18/2007 11:09:08 PM

Seriously though, if you don't know something, how are you supposed to know something? I never knew good hip hop existed until I came to state and lived in a suite with a guy named Bryan Proffitt. My first (probably only) exposure to a true backpacker.

Good hip hop doesn't get played on the radio. How are the kids that don't realize it is out there supposed to learn about it? They have to get lucky and someone in their group is "enlightened". If no one is such (a real possibility), then they all stayed mired in their ignorant bliss of shitty music and crap culture.

It used to be radio DJs had a big influence of what they played, as such you had (hopefully) a critical ear that was putting "good" stuff on the radio. Now, you have white execs that are looking to push an "image" because they know it's easier to sell that than it is to sell good hip hop.

I see that both groups are fueling each other. Part of the hip hop culture has an inclination towards a certain type of genre, the execs feed this, but they push it harder, and make it more desirable with the marketing, and in turn the folks that had the inclination are now hooked. And it's a cycle that doesn't end.

10/18/2007 11:14:04 PM

there are other types of music other than hip hop u know...

10/18/2007 11:16:48 PM

Posts like that serve absolutely no purpose. Don't be a lazy, snarky, third grade cunt, ok? Say what the fuck you are trying to say, I can't read your Mesopotamian mind asshole.

10/18/2007 11:20:22 PM

hey baldilox, I said what i wanted to say....

Quote :

"...there are other types of music other than hip hop."

combined with...

Quote :

"nobody is holding a gun to anyones head and forcing them to listen to this sorry excuse for music/culture."

for your slow new world asshole fucktard, it means you can listen to something else that doesn't reflect a bad culture. IGHT!

10/18/2007 11:28:29 PM

on a somewhat ancillary note, the more i listen to rappers like Jeezy and Wayne, the more appreciate their business savvy:

- supply chain management: "what you know bout putting bricks in the spare man, i can stuff a coupe like a motherfucking caravan"

- accounts receivable: "don't be surprised if she ask where the cash at"

- brand equity: "it ain't my birthday but i got my name on the cake"

- liquidy premiums: "duffle bag boy"

- point of sale: "i sell ice in the winter, i sell fire in hell, i am a hustler baby i will sell water to a well" (this is actually Jay-Z)

- project management: "i don't under cause i overstand, no time for mistakes so i overplan"

10/18/2007 11:31:03 PM

lol people think there would be no drugs or crime without hip hop

lmao


what song made mike vick do what he did? was it bow wow, snoop, or nate dogg??????

10/19/2007 1:44:59 AM

Quote :

"but yes.... the media is ultimately responsible for what they show. but they are following purely market forces. Even if MTV and BET and 102 JAMZ and everyone decided to up and stop playing and showing all that tomorrow, someone else would step up in their place and take their money. "

There are tons of prominent hip hop artists that decry the "gangsta" elements of hip hop that the uninformed white people don't know about, because they only see various bits occasionally shown on their mainstream medias. People love to hate on Kanye West because of his ridiculous tirades, but he's one of these people.

The black community is far from unified in the way that the media makes them out to be. IMO, even the title "The hip-hop culture bringing down black people?" grossly misunderstand the dynamics of "black people." They are all black, yes, but the things that influence them are as numerous and dynamic as any other group. Really, the primary way it's bringing black people down is that white people primarily associate blacks with the thug elements of hip hop (50 cent, TI, etc.).

Hip hop is just music. It's effect on the black populous in America is about as strong as the effect Marilyn Manson had on the Columbine shooters.

This article, to bring up Vick in the context of hip hop, is completely retarded. I don 't really give that writer any credibility for his idiotic and ignorant comments.

Yes, lots of black people listen to hip hop, and lots of black people dress like the people in those videos, but not a lot of black people REALLY act like those people. It's a minority that does, but they're easy to spot, because they're the ones that get the face time.

10/19/2007 2:01:15 AM

Quote :

"nobody is holding a gun to anyones head and forcing them to listen to this sorry excuse for music/culture. They think its 'cool' Nothing will change that...certainly not when there are no parental role models."

It's been said by others, but you can't blame kids for eating up what's marketed to them. Parents and producers are more than capable of independently stopping this crap; therefore they're both culpable for its effects.

Quote :

"I'm not trying to derail this into a chicken came before the egg argument."

It's worth discussing, though.

It seems like both create an echo chamber, rather than one causing the other.

-crappy social conditions are reflected in art
-a completely unscrupulous media amplifies it and markets it to kids
-kids internalize the fake culture, and thus society gets crappier than it was to begin with
-repeat

10/19/2007 2:13:48 AM

There is nothing wrong w/ hip-hop or gangster rap , etc. The problem is that a lot of the young members actually idealize with the songs and try to follow the lifestyle portrayed in the song. Just b.c i may listen to a particular rap song does not mean i'm about to rape bitches; push drugs; and roll out w/ my glock just b.c its what they rap about in the song.

10/19/2007 2:39:18 AM

Well "life imitates art" vs. "art imitates life" debates usually don't go anywhere. And so we have this thread.

But here's a stab:

Quote :

"Hip hop is the dominant culture for black youth. In general, music, especially hip hop music, is rebellious for no good reason other than to make money. Rappers and rockers are not trying to fix problems. They create problems for attention."

I don't think it's rebellious for no good reason. On a disproportionate scale, black "youth" are raised in situations of lesser opportunity and, frankly, money than most Americans. That kind of promotes a rebellious attitude in hot-blooded young people.

You can see parallels in other places -- look at the Middle East, full of young people, hungry for "jihad."

Here we have professional athletes -- largely young men -- who stand out because of skill and determination but who come largely from a similar background. It's not like they all got MBAs from Wharton before joining the NFL.

I don't think the author of the article is being very realistic -- here you have young people who live particularly difficult lives and are growing up, and the "rappers" offer them messages of power and strength. They aren't particularly positive messages, but maybe they're filling a void that other people -- like parents and teachers and institutions -- aren't filling.

10/19/2007 3:29:36 AM

Quote :

"lol people think there would be no drugs or crime without hip hop lmao what song made mike vick do what he did? was it bow wow, snoop, or nate dogg?????? "

there will always be bad things in the world. Hip hop today's shitty rap glorifies them.

[Edited on October 19, 2007 at 8:26 AM. Reason : . ]

[Edited on October 19, 2007 at 8:26 AM. Reason : ..]

10/19/2007 8:25:23 AM

Yeah, some hip hop obviously glorifies the gangsta lifestyle. As a side note, I think the gangsta lifestyle has always been glorified in America. Taking it back to the shoot 'em up cowboys, to the gangstas of the early 1900's, to God knows what today.

I don't really know what that means though. I guess it seems that a genre of music embraced this lifestyle openly.

10/19/2007 8:47:46 AM