Quote :

"WASHINGTON - Serious problems in state death penalty systems compromise fairness and accuracy in capital punishment cases and justify a nationwide freeze on executions, a U.S. lawyers' organization said. Problems cited in a report released Sunday by the American Bar Association include: * Spotty collection and preservation of DNA evidence, which has been used to exonerate more than 200 inmates; * Misidentification by eyewitnesses; * False confessions from defendants; and * Persistent racial disparities that make death sentences more likely when victims are white. The report is a compilation of separate reviews done over the past three years of how the death penalty operates in eight states: Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Florida, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Tennessee."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21529242/

Who here supports the death penalty? Do you have any justification for your point of view that isn't reduced to simple vengeance?

10/30/2007 11:13:49 AM

I support the death penalty.

1. Do innocent people get sent to death row? Sometimes, but thats what the appeals process is for. Don't make the argument that some people just can't afford to appeal, because it doesn't make sense.

2. Eye for an eye bitches.

3. If I had a choice between life in prison with no chance of parole and death, I'd take death. A life sentence is a death sentence.

4. Works as a good bargaining chip for DAs ie "Admit to the crime and we won't pursue the death penalty"

10/30/2007 11:25:56 AM

Whether for or against the death penalty, this seems like a criminal justice system problem overall and not just a specific death penalty process problem...granted the stakes are higher than someone "just" getting locked up...but false testimony, mishandling of DNA, etc seem like they could apply in all types of cases and investigations

10/30/2007 11:27:07 AM

I think they need to speed up the process in cases where they know the person did it. Not circumstancial evidence, but know for a fact. Im talking about taking them into the next room and ending it.

10/30/2007 11:29:47 AM

Quote :

"I think they need to speed up the process in cases where they know the person did it."

How do you know for a fact? DNA evidence proves that they've committed the crime? There have been a few cases where the DNA evidence has been shown to be incorrect. Witnesses aren't always reliable, and hell, even if the person does admit to committing the crime, they could've been coerced into pleading out.

10/30/2007 11:33:41 AM

How bout a video. Is there any doubt about charles manson? There are cases where you know what they've done. To act like there isnt is a bit naive.

10/30/2007 11:41:22 AM

I wasnt saying that there aren't some definitive cases where there is rock solid proof. But I do think a case like Charles Manson is the exception, rather than the rule.

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 11:44 AM. Reason : .]

10/30/2007 11:43:48 AM

Quote :

"Is there any doubt about charles manson? There are cases where you know what they've done. To act like there isnt is a bit naive. "

Did manson ever actually kill anyone? I thought he just had other people in his cult do it.

10/30/2007 12:33:20 PM

Quote :

"3. If I had a choice between life in prison with no chance of parole and death, I'd take death. A life sentence is a death sentence. 4. Works as a good bargaining chip for DAs ie "Admit to the crime and we won't pursue the death penalty""

I agree with 3, which is why 4 doesn't make any sense. But it makes for a damn good episode of Law and Order.

10/30/2007 12:35:32 PM

Quote :

"Did manson ever actually kill anyone? I thought he just had other people in his cult do it"

Does it matter?

10/30/2007 12:41:57 PM

Quote :

"1. Do innocent people get sent to death row? Sometimes, but thats what the appeals process is for."

that would be fine, except that we're talking about innocent people actually getting executed. Obviously, the appeals process has not worked for everyone

on the same note....

Quote :

"this seems like a criminal justice system problem overall and not just a specific death penalty process problem...granted the stakes are higher than someone "just" getting locked up"

yes, the overall justice system is FUBARd, but you don't think that accidentally executing people is on a whole other level than locking them away? Putting an innocent person in jail is horrible, and not-repayable. But at least if they are found to be innocent, they are still able to be let free, even if 10, 20, 40 years of their life has been wasted. If you execute them, that's it. permanent. No remittance at all if they are found to be innocent. Your argument seems to be "yes, the system is fucked. and yes, they literally make life-and-death mistakes. but hey - that's just the way it is! let's keep on truckin'!"

Quote :

"3. If I had a choice between life in prison with no chance of parole and death, I'd take death. A life sentence is a death sentence."

well guess what - it's not up to you. If a life-sentence inmate wants to commit suicide, i'm sure he can figure out a way. If this was true, why do you see so many men who have been locked up for decades clinging to any hope that 1) they might get out or 2) they would still rather live on, even if in prison.

Quote :

"2. Eye for an eye bitches. "

yeah.... great. Let's create laws based on arbitrary, ancient books. not to mention, in this case, we would be talking about "your eye for an eye that someone else put out".

but as long as you're quoting and proposing to live by random Bible verses (Exodus 21:24, in this case), why don't we live by them all? you forgot to mention that "an eye for an eye" does not apply if it is your slave's eye, for "if a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished" (Exodus 21:20). And, of course, sometimes a "tooth for a tooth" doesn't really mean that, because "if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth." (Exodus 21:27). You know... if you knock out your slave's tooth, he doesn't knock out one of yours - you just let him go free. That way, everybody's happy.

and when are you going to start petitioning for the law to execute all homosexuals, because as you know, "if a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13)

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 12:58 PM. Reason : . ]

10/30/2007 12:56:56 PM

Quote :

"but as long as you're quoting and proposing to live by random Bible verses (Exodus 21:24, in this case), why don't we live by them all?"

How do you make that leap of logic? You know people are allowed to take the best parts of things and cobble them together into a system they think will be a good one. I'm not defending the "eye for an eye" principle in particular, I'm just saying that you can in fact take what has worked for people in the past and leave what hasn't to form a system that you think might be a good one.

I guess we'll have to go back through the constitution and either accept every law ever made from the various historical texts from which it was based or just do away with the offending law altogether.

10/30/2007 1:55:18 PM

the eye for an eye thing was kinda a joke, but those who kill (1st degree murder) do deserve to be put to death

Quote :

" well guess what - it's not up to you. If a life-sentence inmate wants to commit suicide, i'm sure he can figure out a way. If this was true, why do you see so many men who have been locked up for decades clinging to any hope that 1) they might get out or 2) they would still rather live on, even if in prison."

Why do you see so many men in Non-death penalty states who try to kill guards, other prisoners, riot, etc? Some people don't like suicide and realize they'll never be set free, yet they have no problem with killing...give them the chair if they insist on keeping it up..

10/30/2007 1:55:36 PM

Quote :

"Your argument seems to be "yes, the system is fucked. and yes, they literally make life-and-death mistakes. but hey - that's just the way it is! let's keep on truckin'!""

You are right about the first part...but by no means am I saying "hey thats just how it is"...I'm simply saying the problems of the criminal justice system are a lot more expansive than the minority of cases where the death penalty is involved...if thats what it takes to make people aware then so be it, at least they're being made aware...but by no means are halfassed or corrupt investigations and legal proceedings limited to death penalty cases

10/30/2007 2:24:35 PM

I think that I'm going to have to agree with TreeTwista10.

The consequences of an improperly applied death penalty are incomparable to any other punishment, true. However, death penalty cases make up an overwhelming minority of criminal proceedings.

If you're set on judiciary reform, that leaves you with two choices:

1) Because the stakes are so much higher, you can focus on death penalty cases--recognizing, of course, that this is a minority of cases and that the same factors present in capital cases are probably operating in other cases as well.

or

2) You can address underlying causes and, in turn, improve the entire justice system, capital and non-capital cases alike.

I would choose the latter.

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 2:49 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2007 2:48:11 PM

Quote :

"How do you make that leap of logic? You know people are allowed to take the best parts of things and cobble them together into a system they think will be a good one."

completely agree. i was using the Bible as a specific case of a particular example of a document that people claim to follow 100%, but in fact only choose very specific passages to live and think by. When they find a passage they like, they use the excuse "the Bible said it" as an argument that the statement simply can't be argued with. But if you find a passage that is clearly out of the bounds of our modern society (keeping Hebrew slaves, stoning gays and adulterers to death), they backpedal and claim they are parables, or that was the work of a vengeful God, and we are not to act like that.

bbehe has said he was more-or-less joking about it, but there are many people who use those 4 words as their entire basis for supporting the death penalty. These people, though, willingly (or, more likely, ignorantly) ignore nearly every other word on the page that "an eye for an eye" is written on.
Anyone who has not done so, I encourage you to go read Exodus 20
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020&version=31
You'll find it's very familiar - The 10 Commandments. 10 rules to live by that nearly everyone, Christian or not, agrees on (disregarding the christian-specific commandments), even if there is argument about where those commandments should be shown or displayed.
But as many people who have read the 10 Commandments, I bet only a tiny fraction of those have simply turned the page in the Bible and continue reading Exodus 21, which begins with: "1 These are the laws you are to set before them: 2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years." which clearly condones, or at least permits, the purchase of Hebrew slaves.

Exodus 21-23 continues prattling off a list of very strange laws concerning how you are to treat your slaves, when and how to sell your daughter off into prostitution, how to settle disputes between you and your neighbor with regard to donkeys and bull, and what to do if your oxen gores and kills another person. Buried right in the middle of all these laws that nobody takes seriously anymore is this, starting with Exodus 21
"22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

People still cling to "eye for eye" as reason enough to put people to death, but forget about seeing if they will uphold the other laws written on the same page. Also, they conveniently forget/ignore/don't know that verse 23 ("eye for eye") is obviously in direct response to verse 22, which discusses with a very specific case: men who are fighting and hit a pregnant woman, who then gives birth prematurely and causes serious injury, presumably to the child or the woman. Please, show me one modern day Christian who supports capital punishment based on that single circumstance, but no other.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=21&version=31

10/30/2007 2:56:25 PM

Quote :

"The consequences of an improperly applied death penalty are incomparable to any other punishment, true. However, death penalty cases make up an overwhelming minority of criminal proceedings."

I still don't see how this is good enough rational to continue executions, knowing that you might execute an innocent person.

you said so here - improperly applied death penalty has "incomparable consequences". Even though death penalties are an "overwhelming minority" of criminal cases, that is in and of itself no reason to ignore improperly applied death sentences. If you wanted to look at it mathematically or economically, you would apply values to false death penalties, versus the number of death penalties, and see if you get a net loss or gain.

So.... a false death penalty is "incomparable".... that would theoretically lead to a "cost" of infinity for an false death penalty.

So what % of criminal cases are death penalty cases? 0.01% 0.0001% 0.0000001%?
I don't know.
Regardless, (infinity * a really small number) is still infinity, or in any case, >> 0. Therefore, it doesn't matter how few times it is improperly applied, the result is overall a net loss.

10/30/2007 3:07:09 PM

or maybe we could address the problems with our justice system as a whole. and until those problems are solved (which i don't ever really see completely happening) we don't put people to death based on a flawed system.

10/30/2007 3:08:48 PM

^^ Sorry to be vague...there's nothing wrong with suspending execution while reviews and reforms are enacted.

The point I was trying to make is that reviews and reforms should span the entire judicial system and not be limited to capital cases. The scope should not be limited to capital cases because capital cases are the minority and because the underlying factors that cause capital cases to fail (for lack of a better term) are more than likely present in other, non-capital cases.

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 3:13 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2007 3:13:29 PM

Even with significant reform to the system I think capital punishment should be gotten rid of or made EXTREMELY rare (only in treason, terrorism, etc.).

10/30/2007 3:15:14 PM

I think that it's absolutely ludicrous that we're considering penal advice from a 70's era swedish pop group.

10/30/2007 3:26:30 PM

I can't help but feel that death penalty proponents treat the whole issue with a flippancy that would quickly disappear were they or someone they love wrongly sentenced.

We all know that an imperfect system will undoubtedly put innocent people to death. If you OK it for any reason, you truly are not confronting reality of the situation.

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 3:51 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2007 3:50:31 PM

Quote :

"I can't help but feel that death penalty proponents treat the whole issue with a flippancy that would quickly disappear were they or someone they love wrongly sentenced"

And certainly there are other people, who are opposed to the death penalty, that would turn a 180 of their own if someone murdered their sister/brother/father/mother/son/daughter/etc

10/30/2007 4:02:22 PM

yeah, probably. so what, though?

his only point was that many people who unconditionally support the death penalty don't always fully consider the ultimate consequence that is death.

10/30/2007 4:27:28 PM

yeah, people in that position (who have been hurt and may irrationally vengeful - not that they don't have the right to be vengeful, but it can certainly put you in an irrational frame of mind) should not necessarily be the ones to make those decisions

10/30/2007 4:39:48 PM

I support the death penalty because life in prison costs taxpayers a lot of money.

10/30/2007 4:47:10 PM

yes, and what a great reason to kill people that is.

10/30/2007 4:49:47 PM

jwb

^^^^I'm just showing the other side...if somebody was unconditionally opposed to the death penalty, hey maybe they just don't like violence and don't think any human should be able to take another human's life under any circumstances...thats perfectly fine and its admirable...but there are also some dangerous people out there

if a serial killer murdered 40 innocent people before he got caught, the rest of the world might be a lot safer if he was put to death...now certainly life in prison, assuming he doesnt escape or get paroled, might very well keep him from being able to kill any innocent people out in public/society...however he could very well kill some inmates...you might be saying "inmates? well they're criminals so its not as bad"...but knowingly unleashing a serial killer into a life sentence at a prison where he might kill other people, however guilty they are, is almost advocating the taking of a life by another

slippery slope

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 4:51 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2007 4:51:12 PM

Quote :

"unleashing a serial killer into a life sentence at a prison "

clearly that's an absurd statement.

certainly when you're dealing with someone as dangerous as a convicted serial killer, extremely strict measures must be taken and in doing so the population of the prison would be in no danger whatsoever (read: solitary confinement..)

10/30/2007 4:59:34 PM

Why not just send the life in prison guys up to a huge federal facility in the middle of nowhere Montana?

I would think it would be easier for prisons to focus on a specific type of prisoner instead of having a few solitary confinements along with the general population. Send all the solitaries to one spot, make them do manual labor all day (making car tags or road signs) - give them no tv or radio - and let them die there.

Would that not be cheaper and easier to manage than a huge number of maximum security prisons all across the United States?

10/30/2007 5:12:56 PM

It is my understanding that not one innocent person has been killed by the death penality. They thought they had one a couple years ago. Danny glover heads some group that protests this shit. The dna afterwards supported it was him that murdered. That group really needs a name, and honestly, they are really hoping for one.

10/30/2007 7:02:20 PM

fuck you


and btw, people ON death row awaiting their deaths have been exonerated

10/30/2007 7:14:44 PM

Quote :

"fuck you "

aahh, always a clear sign of an intellectual. LOL

I am aware that people ON death row have been innocent, however there is no proof of anyone innocent being killed by capital punishment.

10/30/2007 8:06:59 PM

I KNOW RIGHT! almost as intelligent as this gem:

Quote :

"That group really needs a name, and honestly, they are really hoping for one."

what's your point? it hasn't happened yet, so everything is all good? nevermind the fact that innocent people ARE awaiting their deaths and people have been exonerated, luckily, in time to avoid their death.


[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 8:12 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2007 8:10:40 PM

Quote :

"It is my understanding that not one innocent person has been killed by the death penality."

Statistically speaking, this is almost impossible. Even if you ignore the fact that most investigations even if they were ongoing at the time of the execution, are stopped afterwards, the simple fact of the matter remains that, given the number of Americans who have been executed in the history of this country, it is HIGHLY unlikely that not a single one of them has ever been innocent. I mean, seriously. You're smarter than this.

10/30/2007 8:11:46 PM

Quote :

"Who here supports the death penalty? Do you have any justification for your point of view that isn't reduced to simple vengeance?"

I support the death penalty in principle although frequently not in its current application. I think some types of criminals, even incarcerated theoretically for life, continue to present unacceptably large threats to society. For this reason they should be removed from it permanently and with 100% certainty.

10/30/2007 8:24:31 PM

994, Surely you can see that those kinds of groups need the martyr. They need the name to try to shut it down. They were tickled to death when they thought they had it a couple years ago. That was my point.

spooky, statistically speaking? Come on. Im not saying it hasnt happened, Im just saying that their isnt any proof of it happening. Statistics or not. Thats all im saying.

I do, however, feel when there is no doubt this person commited a terrible act, they need to speed this thing up a bit.

10/30/2007 8:28:55 PM

Quote :

"I support the death penalty because life in prison costs taxpayers a lot of money."

I knew that would pop up. The appeals process is more expensive than keeping them in jail.

and yes, the appeals process is necessary

10/30/2007 8:50:26 PM

I couldn't pull the switch myself so I can't honestly ask someone else do it for me.

10/30/2007 9:12:41 PM

believe it or not (because it might seem contrary to what I've been arguing in this thread), i almost completely agree with GrumpyGOP on this one:

Quote :

"I support the death penalty in principle although frequently not in its current application. I think some types of criminals, even incarcerated theoretically for life, continue to present unacceptably large threats to society. For this reason they should be removed from it permanently and with 100% certainty."

I also am not, in principle, opposed to the death penalty. I do think there are some people who have shown that they clearly have no place in society.
But the current system is out of hand. I would rather put a temporary, or even permanent, halt on death penalties and sentences than go forward with the way it happens now.

10/30/2007 9:40:28 PM

Quote :

"I couldn't pull the switch myself so I can't honestly ask someone else do it for me. "

You also cant do brain surgery, so... Im just sayin

10/30/2007 10:16:45 PM

If they could figure out a way to apply the death penalty fairly, I'd supply some generators to keep the chair up and electrocuting.

But we can't apply it fairly.

So, yeah...cut it out.

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 10:24 PM. Reason : ^And surely you see the difference, Doctor.]

10/30/2007 10:21:10 PM

^^good one!

literally he CAN pull the switch, but...

wait, what the fuck am i doing, you can't actually be that dumb, right? nah

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2007 10:22:59 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "I couldn't pull the switch myself so I can't honestly ask someone else do it for me." You also cant do brain surgery, so... Im just sayin "

If I had the ability to do brain surgery then I would be more than happy to. I couldn't bring myself to pull the switch for an execution... I don't feel it is my place to decide when someone should take their last breath, especially considering there is no "do-over."

10/30/2007 10:23:24 PM

^really. I dont think he woudl be allowed to do either, legally.

But you seem alot smarter than me, so I could be wrong.

msb. I suppose you could pull a trigger correct? Do you think you could go to war? If not, could you expect or ask others to?

I see your point, I was just making a joke msb.

[Edited on October 30, 2007 at 10:27 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2007 10:24:43 PM

Quote :

"The appeals process is more expensive than keeping them in jail. "

Yeah...cause only people with a death sentence appeal, hell at least death row people usually only try appeal their cases and not waste time like this shit

http://thesuperficial.com/2007/08/michael_vick_gets_sued_by_a_cr.php

10/30/2007 10:24:50 PM

Quote :

"eyedrb: I suppose you could pull a trigger correct? Do you think you could go to war? If not, could you expect or ask others to?"

I have no way of telling for sure. There's a chance I'd play dead while crying to myself silently...

There's also a chance I'd gun down ten pitiful African child-soldiers in defense of one American...

What about you? Could you pull the trigger?

10/30/2007 10:51:23 PM

^while it would be the manly thing to say hell yes. The truth is I dunno. I would assume when threatened I could act, but you never know. I dont hunt, bc I couldnt stand to kill a deer. However, I know it is necessary.

10/30/2007 10:55:44 PM

please tell me eyedrb was being facetious in the last couple posts

10/30/2007 11:28:59 PM

^^If you don't mind sharing, where is your family from exactly? Round these parts or what?

10/30/2007 11:30:57 PM