http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html

When I read the headline, my first thought was "this is the stupidest thing ever", but after reading the body of the article, I am thinking this might not be such a bad idea. When I have kids, it remains to be seen how I will raise them, but I might actually send them to something like this.

11/26/2007 5:23:24 PM

Sounds interesting, but something to be concerned about (and it's entirely possible it's just poor wording and example choosing on the reporter's part) is a sense of hostility being projected though. It's great that you have something for such kids, and it's certainly helpful to have the support there for the parents, but things like:

Quote :

"Camp Quest also taught Damian critical thinking, world religions and tales of famous freethinkers (an umbrella term for atheists, agnostics and other rationalists) like the black abolitionist Frederick Douglass."

come awful close to warnings about "unbelievers".

11/26/2007 6:40:57 PM

actually seems pretty stupid to me. if a family isnt religious and doesnt want to raise their kid religious thats completely fine. it just seems like atheists etc. go out of their way to be non-believers these days. and these morals and values the parents want their kids to have could easily be taught by non lazy parents.

i can see some of their arguments but think the concept of the school and sleep-away camps for this is retarded.

11/26/2007 7:01:47 PM

good lord that article was crazy biased. It said everything but "CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL!!!" jeez

11/26/2007 9:30:25 PM

^ In what way? I was probably the most visible unbeliever on campus for a semester and people pressured me non-stop to believe in God. Is it that hard to believe that others try and get you to believe when it's the "most important thing" to them?

11/26/2007 9:47:25 PM

I think this is a great idea, and not at all going "out of the way to be atheists" so much as they are taking the initiative to teach their kids quality morals without fairytales.

11/26/2007 9:47:29 PM

^^ yeah and how much do you assholes complain and whine about christians trying to share with you what they think is the most important thing

11/26/2007 10:20:20 PM

I personally don't whine and complain that much actually -- I invited it because I find those kinds of conversations fun.

But I'm sure you had a point in there somewhere.

11/26/2007 10:26:51 PM

In what way?

Pretty much the whole thing... The tone of the article was very "oooh, woe for the poor atheist child. woooooooe. he is assaulted on all sides by the savage Christians. wooooooooooe is he!"

11/26/2007 10:44:19 PM

not really. it pretty much just said what the motivation for the school was and why people sent their kids there. big whoop.

11/26/2007 10:49:17 PM

^^

[Edited on November 26, 2007 at 10:51 PM. Reason : .]

11/26/2007 10:51:11 PM

^^ umm. yeah. just keep telling yourself that.

11/26/2007 10:52:48 PM

what that this specific article is unbiased? it's really not that big of a deal.

11/26/2007 10:54:09 PM

Quote :

"good lord that article was crazy biased. It said everything but "CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL!!!" jeez!"

Quote :

"The tone of the article was very "oooh, woe for the poor atheist child. woooooooe. he is assaulted on all sides by the savage Christians. wooooooooooe is he!"

not really

are you sure you're reading the same article?



I would will someday send my kids to something like this

definitely.

sunday school isn't and shouldn't be just about god

it's about teaching kids to love and share and help others, etc

stuff that doesn't really get taught in the normal reading, writing and 'rithmetic routine

and guess what?

a lot of parents don't want to rely on fairy tales and myths as a way to teach their kids

"So kids, why do we share?"

"Because Jesus blah blah the angels blah blah it's a nice thing to do."

11/26/2007 11:48:20 PM

I'd be afraid that they were teaching the kids that they were better than religious people, which almost defeats the purpose of someone claiming to be atheist or agnostic.

11/26/2007 11:57:59 PM

yeah the first rule of thinking you're better than others is not to tell people you think you're better than them

11/27/2007 12:49:24 AM

Quote :

"sunday school isn't and shouldn't be just about god it's about teaching kids to love and share and help others, etc stuff that doesn't really get taught in the normal reading, writing and 'rithmetic routine"

I thought that's what parenting was for.

11/27/2007 1:01:59 AM

This would be a much better idea if it wasn't explicitly atheist/non-Christian... A Sunday School class that teaches kids values for life (as per the "Why do we share?" "Because it's a nice thing to do" example) but does not mention or deal with religion at all would be something that could appeal both to non-religious and religious families. Making an atheist Sunday School only reinforces the idea that many atheists belong to the Church of Not-Having-A-Church (in other words, they are religious about not believing in a religion).

11/27/2007 1:15:39 AM

I went to Christianity-based summer camps for the most part, and I was never uncomfortable as an agnostic. We all just played with sticks and snuck candy while unenthusiastic teenagers tried to overcome their hangovers long enough to wing a two-minute devotion that they forgot to prepare. And that was pretty much it for our daily dose of Jesus.

Anyway, I kinda think you should leave that stuff up to the kid. You shouldn't put him in Warriors for Jesus or take him to church every Sunday or let some persuasive Christian preach to him all the time, but you also shouldn't send him to atheist camps to reinforce your atheist beliefs. Make sure the kid gets a decent amount of exposure to some different ideas, and if he wants to do some more research, you should support him. Be an absent guide and let him make his own journey.

If you want your kid to take classes to develop his critical thinking skills/reasoning abilities and study free thinkers, then enroll him in classes for it. You don't need to call it atheist Sunday school.



I was harassed a little bit. One mother told me in front of a group of girls that I was going to hell. I don't know if I was especially incorrigible or what. I just remember her asking me what church I went to, and I told her I didn't go to the church, and she told me matter-of-factly that I was going to hell. Another mother used to come by my house in the middle of the afternoon before my parents came home from work with little snacks and invites to church. I loved those snacks. And, of course, I had some especially devoted and sincere peers who threatened (with hell), begged, and cried to get me to go to church with them. I always ended up feeling uncomfortable for them.

One of my friends who also grew up in a nonreligious home made a comment to me about the nonsense we took as kids for not going to church. Our other friend who grew up in a Catholic home acted like she had no idea what we're talking about and practically got offended at our conversation...we were the ones who got damned to hell as children, and she was offended that we would mention this cruel reality of her precious faith. There was also an element of jealousy, like she felt she had missed out on some sort of enlightening persecution.

11/27/2007 2:37:11 AM

Quote :

"I was harassed a little bit. One mother told me in front of a group of girls that I was going to hell. I don't know if I was especially incorrigible or what. I just remember her asking me what church I went to, and I told her I didn't go to the church, and she told me matter-of-factly that I was going to hell. Another mother used to come by my house in the middle of the afternoon before my parents came home from work with little snacks and invites to church. I loved those snacks. And, of course, I had some especially devoted and sincere peers who threatened (with hell), begged, and cried to get me to go to church with them. I always ended up feeling uncomfortable for them."

Assuming that the Chrisitan idea of hell exists, the mothers telling you this are quite possibly the sort of people who will be going to hell.

11/27/2007 2:46:23 AM

Article quotes:

Quote :

"One Sunday this fall found a dozen children up to age 6 and several parents playing percussion instruments and singing empowering anthems like I'm Unique and Unrepeatable, set to the tune of Ten Little Indians, instead of traditional Sunday-school songs like Jesus Loves Me. Rather than listen to a Bible story, the class read Stone Soup, a secular parable of a traveler who feeds a village by making a stew using one ingredient from each home."

Sounds a lot like cumbayah to me. There is only ONE difference between this and regular Sunday school; Jesus.

11/27/2007 11:18:03 AM

^ isn't that the point?

11/27/2007 11:37:32 AM

On the issue of atheists being oppressed

here's a University of Minnesota study that concludes that atheists are the least trusted group in America

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

11/27/2007 12:10:27 PM

Quote :

"Anyway, I kinda think you should leave that stuff up to the kid."

a 5 year old isn't going to raise itself. it's up to the parent to provide structured framework for how to live life

[Edited on November 27, 2007 at 1:50 PM. Reason : ^ i doubt kids in Palo Alto feel oppressed by fundamentalist christians]

11/27/2007 1:49:23 PM

a large part of the attraction of church/sunday school is the sense of community.

i have to admit, i miss that aspect.

i tried going to a U.U. church, but it was way too full of fluffy fruity moonbats to ever spend any time there

11/27/2007 2:29:07 PM

^yeah exactly. i grew up in a pretty liberal united methodist church and it was a very welcoming community. i could see wanting that for my kids if i have any.

11/27/2007 2:38:52 PM

Quote :

"a large part of the attraction of church/sunday school is the sense of community. i have to admit, i miss that aspect. i tried going to a U.U. church, but it was way too full of fluffy fruity moonbats to ever spend any time there "

Thank you. I was reading through the thread to see if anyone would mention that, and it wasn't until the second to last post that someone did. I feel that a sense of community would be good for my kids once I have them, and I think growing up unchurched it's something I really missed out on.

11/27/2007 2:50:34 PM

Quote :

"I'd be afraid that they were teaching the kids that they were better than religious people,"

you really think that adults would willingly or even negligently teach kids they're better than someone else?

really?

oh, and atheists that join atheist churches are "religious people"

Quote :

"I thought that's what parenting was for."

then why do we have schools at all? couldn't ALL parents home-school?

it takes a village to raise a child

IOW, your point is empty

Quote :

"Making an atheist Sunday School only reinforces the idea that many atheists belong to the Church of Not-Having-A-Church"

please

please tell me one legitimate reason why that would be a bad thing (universally, not just to your cult)

oh, and you mean "Church of Not-Having-A-God"

there are already atheist churches popping up everywhere, and there will only be more in the future

atheism is a faith no different than monotheism and polytheism (this is not up for debate. it is 100% fact)

I can't help but think that opposition to this

is merely monotheists (and perhaps some polytheists,)

feeling threatened that they might lose their monopoly on morality

MORALS ONLY COME FROM GOD(s)!!!!!!!!

Quote :

"You don't need to call it atheist Sunday school."

if it's by atheists and for atheists, then why wouldn't you call it that?

you can have a secular sunday school also, if you like,

but that's not comparable to monotheistic and polytheistic sunday school, but rather a new non-religious category

[Edited on November 27, 2007 at 3:23 PM. Reason : ]]

11/27/2007 3:19:58 PM

Quote :

"qntmfred: a 5 year old isn't going to raise itself. it's up to the parent to provide structured framework for how to live life"

But is it necessary to dictate a child's spiritual development in order to provide this "structured framework"?

Quote :

"joe_schmoe: a large part of the attraction of church/sunday school is the sense of community."

So true. I've always felt like I missed out on something there. But I won't be a hypocrite and sit through hours of shit I don't believe in just so my kid and I can feel like we belong to something. However, if I was poor, I think I'd make the sacrifice and be a hypocrite in order to get that extra support. I'm a bit of a pragmatist.

Quote :

"392: if it's by atheists and for atheists, then why wouldn't you call it that?"

I don't believe in indoctrinating children in that way. Surely, there's a way to teach these free-thinking ideas and critical thinking skills without having to base it all around the assertion that there is no higher being.

[Edited on November 27, 2007 at 4:14 PM. Reason : ]

11/27/2007 4:13:52 PM

Quote :

"But is it necessary to dictate a child's spiritual development in order to provide this "structured framework"?"

necessary? perhaps, perhaps not.

the parents' prerogative? yes.

Quote :

"I don't believe in indoctrinating children in that way."

Is it [universally] wrong for parents to then [in your opinion] "indoctrinate" their kids with any theism?

IOW, do you oppose all theist sunday schools, be they atheist, monotheist, or polytheist?

Quote :

"Surely, there's a way to teach these free-thinking ideas and critical thinking skills without having to base it all around the assertion that there is no higher being."

you're confusing atheism with secular humanism and other forms of secular non-theism; atheism is a faith

monotheists should be able to teach kids, basing lessons around the assertion that there is a [particular] god

atheists should be able to teach kids, basing lessons around the assertion that there aren't any gods

polytheists should be able to teach kids, basing lessons around the assertion that there are multiple gods

non-theists should be able to teach kids, without basing lessons around assertions that there are or aren't god(s)

get it?

11/27/2007 5:08:18 PM

Quote :

"Is it [universally] wrong for parents to then [in your opinion] "indoctrinate" their kids with any theism? IOW, do you oppose all theist sunday schools, be they atheist, monotheist, or polytheist? "

From everything I've read bridget say on such things, I would imagine so. You're seriously trying to pick a fight with the wrong person here.

11/27/2007 5:32:14 PM

Quote :

"you really think that adults would willingly or even negligently teach kids they're better than someone else? "

Haha

uhh... yeah, they would

11/27/2007 5:34:37 PM

^I'm gonna expand on that.
Parents who are racist or eliteist do teach their kids that they are better than other people. Even if the parents don't say so directly, that kind of thing does get subtly passed along by the parents' behavior.
I was raised Catholic, so I can speak for Catholicism here, which both directly and indirectly taught that we were better than anyone who didn't go to church or went to any different church. I distinctly remember what I called the "Lutheran-bashing" lecture in Sunday School that actually got repeated three years in a row. It really was a long lecture about how Catholics were right and everyone else was wrong, using Lutherans as the main example.
They really do teach that kind of bigoted stuff in Sunday School, and half the kids latch on to it to make fun of others, while the other half, myself included, usually stop going to church.

11/27/2007 5:51:18 PM

Quote :

"392: necessary? perhaps, perhaps not. the parents' prerogative? yes."

I wish you'd read my posts.

I made the statement that I think religious/spiritual beliefs should be left up to the child:

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: Anyway, I kinda think you should leave that stuff up to the kid. You shouldn't put him in Warriors for Jesus or take him to church every Sunday or let some persuasive Christian preach to him all the time, but you also shouldn't send him to atheist camps to reinforce your atheist beliefs. Make sure the kid gets a decent amount of exposure to some different ideas, and if he wants to do some more research, you should support him. Be an absent guide and let him make his own journey."

It looked like qntmfred objected to my post as if teaching one specific theism was necessary for this "structured framework."

I implied that I don't think that's necessary for the "structured framework."

Is it the parents' prerogative? Of course. I never suggested otherwise.

Quote :

"392: Is it [universally] wrong for parents to then [in your opinion] "indoctrinate" their kids with any theism? IOW, do you oppose all theist sunday schools, be they atheist, monotheist, or polytheist?"

Yes, I oppose sending your child to the same sunday school every weekend for the bulk of his childhood.

I think I made that pretty clear in my posts. To sum up: variety, support, let him find his own way, etc...

Quote :

"392: you're confusing atheism with secular humanism and other forms of secular non-theism; atheism is a faith"

I think it's totally cool that you're down with all the lingo.

From now on, when I reject the atheist portion of these otherwise pretty neat camps/sunday schools, I will be sure to acknowledge that atheism is a faith.

Quote :

"392: monotheists should be able to teach kids, basing lessons around the assertion that there is a [particular] god atheists should be able to teach kids, basing lessons around the assertion that there aren't any gods polytheists should be able to teach kids, basing lessons around the assertion that there are multiple gods non-theists should be able to teach kids, without basing lessons around assertions that there are or aren't god(s) get it?"

Sure, they should be able to teach their kids most whatever they want.

I'm saying pretty consistently that I think it's wrong to indoctrinate your child with some chosen belief. I believe parents who do so are robbing their child of his spiritual autonomy.

And it's just as bad to send your kid exclusively to an atheist sunday school as it is to send him exclusively to a Christian sunday school.

After reading the article again, I noticed that nothing really indicates that these sunday schools/camps are actually atheist (besides the article's title, of course). So I guess was right...they don't need to call it an atheist sunday school in order to teach and encourage these ideas/concepts (world religions, critical thinking skills, tales of free thinkers, intellectual curiosity, personal expression, etc...).

[Edited on November 27, 2007 at 9:20 PM. Reason : ]

11/27/2007 9:18:13 PM

Quote :

"it just seems like atheists etc. go out of their way to be non-believers these days."

the exact same thing can be said of religious people who are jumping up and down in church these days and shaking on the ground crying and screaming

11/28/2007 2:09:25 AM

what these people are trying to establish is a sense of community with out religion or church. there are a lot of people out there who just go to church to be in a social club, which isn't a bad thing. kids need that interaction and sense of community as well as parents. lots of friendships are made at church. however, there aren't really many "churches" for atheists or agnostics,free thinkers if you will. if there was something like this in the area i would go.

11/28/2007 12:37:27 PM

Quote :

"It looked like qntmfred objected to my post as if teaching one specific theism was necessary for this "structured framework.""

do you know any parents or been around children? it becomes quickly apparent that leaving children to their own lifestyle choices so as to not spoil their intellectual innocence with your own preconceived notions is not only bullshit, but impossible. children, especially young children, need guidance in their lives. at minimum, they need some. you can scale that up as much as you want, with varying levels of "success." but it's impossible not to impose your own views on your children, and nor should you imo

11/28/2007 9:27:44 PM

Quote :

"the exact same thing can be said of religious people who are jumping up and down in church these days and shaking on the ground crying and screaming"

yeah, some christians make their faith visible for the heathens they feel called to "show the truth." most christians do it for themselves or at least for the people around them.
yeah, some atheists make their lack of faith or anti-faith visible for the idiots they feel called to "show the truth." most atheists do it b/c they don't know or want that faith in their lives.
the difference is, seems to me more atheists want to mock christians for being stupid than there are christians who mock heathens for being doomed to hellfire for all eternity

11/28/2007 9:34:17 PM

^^ Thank you! Like I said earlier, it's just about impossible to not at least partially inject the opinions of the parents into the kids, but it's really irresponsible to try to just give up guidance all together. Developmnental psychology says: Children are NOT mini-adults, they don't function like adults, and they need guidance to get to the point of adults. Maturity is a process that takes a little guidance.
^ It's because you go to college. You interact with college people, and among our population, there are more atheists bashing christians than christians bashing people of other faiths. Christians that go to college learn more tolerance for other people than their uneducated counterparts. Plus, the highest level of atheist populations are among college students. (But the number does go down when you look at populations aged about 30. Seems even atheists need something to cling to as they get older and later in life.)

11/28/2007 10:16:52 PM

^^As the person above me said, you only see this because of the educated college lifestyle. Plenty of college students pick up atheism to try to seem intellectual (many do it for more legitimate reasons, though). These sorts of people tend to be pretty hostile towards christians. Go to any rural or small suburban community in the South or Midwest, though, and you'll be surrounded by self-proclaimed Christians who would rather spout the "change your ways or you're going to hell" line than do anything resembling evangelical outreach.

11/29/2007 12:55:20 AM

Quote :

"qntmfred: do you know any parents or been around children? it becomes quickly apparent that leaving children to their own lifestyle choices so as to not spoil their intellectual innocence with your own preconceived notions is not only bullshit, but impossible. children, especially young children, need guidance in their lives. at minimum, they need some. you can scale that up as much as you want, with varying levels of "success." but it's impossible not to impose your own views on your children, and nor should you imo"

Yes, I know parents, and I've been around their children.

Of course, children need guidance, but why does it have it to come in the form of religious indoctrination? That's what this thread is about, and that's what I've been posting about.

Quote :

"furikuchan: ^^ Thank you! Like I said earlier, it's just about impossible to not at least partially inject the opinions of the parents into the kids, but it's really irresponsible to try to just give up guidance all together. Developmnental psychology says: Children are NOT mini-adults, they don't function like adults, and they need guidance to get to the point of adults. Maturity is a process that takes a little guidance."

Of course, children need guidance, but why does it have it to come in the form of religious indoctrination? That's what this thread is about, and that's what I've been posting about.


And it's okay to share your opinions with your children. I'm saying I think it's wrong to indoctrinate them. And I understand that people are legitimately concerned about their kid being "saved," but it shouldn't take dragging your kid out of bed and telling him to the shut the fuck up and be quiet while he squirms in the pew for two hours every Sunday...I'd question such a faith.

[Edited on November 29, 2007 at 12:57 PM. Reason : ]

11/29/2007 12:56:04 PM