http://wral.com/news/national_world/national/story/2105998/

Quote :

"On Thursday, Manishkumar M. Patel, 34, of Appleton, was accused of slipping the drug to the woman without her knowledge. He was charged with seven felonies and two misdemeanors, including attempted first-degree intentional homicide of an unborn child"

basically a girl's boyfriend is charged with slipping her abortion pills b/c he didn't want her to have any kids.

While I think this is deplorable, I also think the way in which the law undermines the life of the unborn is terrible. Basically they're saying in this case it was murder, but if the woman would have decided to abort, it would not have been.

I see it as hypocrisy, opinions?

11/30/2007 10:38:59 AM

I don't like the system the way it is now... men should have just as much of a right to choose the outcome of the pregnancy as the woman does.

11/30/2007 10:42:00 AM

Yea, I do think there's a double standard here but the guy is definitely in the wrong. I really don't know what the answer is in this situation but this problem probably extends from fathers having absolutely no rights when it comes to children. If you address this, and assure that a woman doesn't get a free ride if she gets pregnant then you might see more discussions between couples before they get pregnant rather than in the courtroom.

11/30/2007 10:42:05 AM

one less human is one parking space closer to the front of the grocery store

11/30/2007 10:48:47 AM

Quote :

"one less human is one parking space closer to the front of the grocery store"

uhh, man that's messed up!


what about handicap spots?

11/30/2007 10:50:17 AM

I don't get the feeling that you're concerned about this because of hypocrisy.

You just oppose abortion...


The interesting part about all this is that it's guys just like this Patel character that partially perpetuate the need for abortion. Can you believe this woman was so desperate to have a baby by a creep who was was repeatedly drugging her?

11/30/2007 10:50:58 AM

Quote :

"men should have just as much of a right to choose the outcome of the pregnancy as the woman does."

I don't know about that. It's her body.

11/30/2007 10:51:26 AM

The women should be able to make the final decision on whether to have the baby or not, but she should also allow the father to fully surrender his rights before she has the child if things are not reconcilable.

11/30/2007 10:53:10 AM

Quote :

"I don't get the feeling that you're concerned about this because of hypocrisy. You just oppose abortion..."

Yes, i oppose abortion.....but I also oppose the law saying if one person kills a baby its ok, but if another does in essence the same thing, its murder.

it's either murder all the time, or none of the time.

11/30/2007 10:59:58 AM

Quote :

"I don't like the system the way it is now... men should have just as much of a right to choose the outcome of the pregnancy as the woman does."

in fantasy land where men don't skip out on child support or leave the woman before he even knows that she's pregnant this would make sense. unfortunately many times it's just the mother who's going to have to deal with the pregnancy and the child.

11/30/2007 11:00:04 AM

^^^I don't know about letting the man fully surrender his rights either. I mean, absent fathers are a big factor in social strife.

Why can't it just be unfair? If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby, she can abort it. If the man doesn't want it, tough luck...you shoulda spent a dollar on a condom...now you gotta spend exponentially more for the next 18 years...

It's not fair, but it certainly seems better than allowing men to force abortions on women or making abortions illegal.

^^So your preference is:

No abortion. If not that, let dudes force abortions/miscarriages on women just to avoid some seeming hypocrisy?

Some might claim that it only seems hypocritical to you because you're not willing to acknowledge the obvious difference between a woman making a decision about her own body and a man making a decision about her body.

[Edited on November 30, 2007 at 11:08 AM. Reason : sss]

11/30/2007 11:01:34 AM

Quote :

"It's not fair, but it certainly seems better than allowing men to force abortions on women or making abortions illegal. "

says you.

11/30/2007 11:03:09 AM

my rationale for supporting abortion would not be viable if precedent allowed the father to do something like this guy did. The fetus is a part of the women thus slipping the pills is basically "assaulting" the women and imho he deserves his punishment.

11/30/2007 11:04:41 AM

Quote :

"Why can't it just be unfair? If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby, she can abort it. If the man doesn't want it, tough luck...you shoulda spent a dollar on a condom...now you gotta spend exponentially more for the next 18 years..."

You wouldn't have the same qualms if the men had all the rights and could just force 'his' woman to have an abortion, or beat the baby out of her would you? It's the same situation.

If we start a business together and cosign all of the loans then we both share in the pain, not just you or I. But if you decide beforehand that you don't want anything to do with the venture and offer financial support but don't want to put your credit on the line and I accept that deal then you still have lost your money if we go under but your credit doesn't suffer.

I do believe that compromise can be struck through legal means, but it would require reworking of parental rights laws.

11/30/2007 11:05:46 AM

Quote :

"I don't know about that. It's her body."

her body is just temporary storage. the baby is equally the man and the woman's.


obviously if there was a medical problem with the woman because of the pregnancy it would be different.

11/30/2007 11:09:17 AM

and the man would then have to be responsible for all ramifications of having the baby, be them physical, financial, psychological, etc. if he forces the woman to have a baby without her consent. and that seems almost completely impossible.

11/30/2007 11:14:28 AM

no, they are both responsible for making the baby in the first place.

11/30/2007 11:16:22 AM

Quote :

"the baby is equally the man and the woman's. "

you are incorrect sir. until the last trimester the baby embryo or fetus is completely reliant on the women's body and basically an appendage. Without the mother the fetus would not be viable; thus it should be up to the women at this point on how to treat her body.

11/30/2007 11:19:17 AM

Quote :

"the baby embryo or fetus "

so the man shouldn't be charged for murder in your opinion b/c it's not a human yet?

11/30/2007 11:24:27 AM

If women would just take their fucking pills and men would just wear condoms, this wouldn't be a problem.

It annoys the fuck out of me that we still have to have these arguments when it's so fucking preventable.



It's evident to me that people wanna get pregnant--we are biologically driven to make babies even if we know we shouldn't be.

11/30/2007 11:26:36 AM

I just like tagging it raw!

(jk)


(well not really, but you know what i mean)

11/30/2007 11:27:26 AM

Quote :

"If women would just take their fucking pills and men would just wear condoms, this wouldn't be a problem."

Or if folks would realize sex doesn't mean sticking a penis in something.

Quote :

"It annoys the fuck out of me that we still have to have these arguments when it's so fucking preventable."

I agree completely.

11/30/2007 11:32:49 AM

Quote :

"The women should be able to make the final decision on whether to have the baby or not, but she should also allow the father to fully surrender his rights before she has the child if things are not reconcilable."

Agreed.

Quote :

"I don't know about letting the man fully surrender his rights either. I mean, absent fathers are a big factor in social strife."

The bigger problem in society is that people aren't responsible for themselves. I guess it would be too much to expect women to only have the babies that they are prepared to take care of.

Our current laws force men to work in the fields just because they gave someone a bucket of seeds.

11/30/2007 11:41:18 AM

Quote :

"Our current laws force men to work in the fields just because they gave someone a bucket of seeds."

They didn't give someone a bucket a seeds.

They planted a bucket of seeds.

Why would you make this stupid analogy?

11/30/2007 11:50:05 AM

still the question lingers:

Currently abortion is legal, in part, b/c its not considered murder. Many people who support aborion say that the baby somehow isn't human yet. How then, can this man be charged for murder?

11/30/2007 11:55:21 AM

^I have no answer to that.

Because I've come to the conclusion that abortion is murder.

And I'm totally okay with letting the woman commit this type of murder.

11/30/2007 11:59:22 AM

One abortion.....maybe, people make mistakes.

Maybe they should start mandatory spaying for women that have multiple ones. start treating the irresponsible people as irresponsible people.

jk about that, but I really have no respect for people who use it as birth control....they don't deserve it.

11/30/2007 12:06:36 PM

Quote :

"so the man shouldn't be charged for murder in your opinion b/c it's not a human yet?"

He shouldn't be charged for murdering the fetus. He should be charged for crimes against the women.

11/30/2007 12:24:38 PM

Quote :

"Basically they're saying in this case it was murder, but if the woman would have decided to abort, it would not have been."

sounds correct to me...i see no hypocrisy

11/30/2007 12:34:00 PM

Quote :

"They didn't give someone a bucket a seeds. They planted a bucket of seeds. Why would you make this stupid analogy?"

That's too simple of an assessment.
You're implying that he has some interest in seeing them grow.
By your analogy, if I help someone plant the garden it's my duty to help with the harvest.
But there are all sorts of reasons that I might help in the garden. Maybe I'm helping a friend. Maybe I'm being paid to plant seeds for the day. Maybe I just like gardening. In any case, if you grow a bunch of crops on your land what happens next is your responsibility.

I'm all for reproducing. I'm also for equality which means it wouldn't be proper for me to treat women as these fragile and foolish creatures who can't be responsible for their own actions.

11/30/2007 12:34:04 PM

Quote :

"in fantasy land where men don't skip out on child support or leave the woman before he even knows that she's pregnant this would make sense. unfortunately many times it's just the mother who's going to have to deal with the pregnancy and the child."

And what do you say to the women who get their partner to step up, marry them, and then leave them less than a year later, sticking the man with the kid? In these cases, the woman is just about never held liable to give child support.
What it comes down to is women's role in the sex act. Hear me out on this one.
Like was said earlier, sex is much more than just "sticking a penis in something." If we start to acknowledge women's equal role in the sex act, then women will have to step up and become more responsible for getting pregnant.
Abortion laws are pretty horrible right now because they don't have room for involving the father, but what's a good alternative? You can't make it mandatory to get the father's consent to have an abortion, because of cases of rape, or if the father has already left the mother. You can't make the mother criminally liable for getting an abortion without the father's consent, because there's no way to regulate getting the father's consent.
If you're married, we can regulate getting the husband's consent, but most of these cases don't involve married couples.
So, really, help me out here. What's a good alternative model for legislation?

11/30/2007 12:48:52 PM

i mean i'm all for women having the choice i just dont want no child support....where do you sign for that one?

11/30/2007 12:51:59 PM

Quote :

"Like was said earlier, sex is much more than just "sticking a penis in something." If we start to acknowledge women's equal role in the sex act, then women will have to step up and become more responsible for getting pregnant."

While your point may also be valid, that wasn't what I meant. If people (especially men) weren't so insistent on traditional sex acts, such as intercourse, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

11/30/2007 1:06:52 PM

pussy is the jam though, im pretty insistent on it

11/30/2007 1:12:02 PM

Many (most?) men are.

11/30/2007 1:12:38 PM

Quote :

"While your point may also be valid, that wasn't what I meant. If people (especially men) weren't so insistent on traditional sex acts, such as intercourse, this wouldn't be as much of a problem."

i don't think there's any point in trying to steer people away from what we've evolved for millions and millions of years to do. (at least not on any significant scale)

11/30/2007 1:15:07 PM

he should be charged with practicing abortion without a licence, assault, and maybe breaking and entering.

11/30/2007 1:15:32 PM

yeah at the very least he is drugging someone and potentially harming her.

11/30/2007 1:16:38 PM

Quote :

"sounds correct to me...i see no hypocrisy"

its either gotta be murder all the time, or never.

11/30/2007 1:20:46 PM

distruction of property

11/30/2007 1:23:00 PM

Quote :

"i don't think there's any point in trying to steer people away from what we've evolved for millions and millions of years to do. (at least not on any significant scale)"

What can I say? I'm a quixotic iconoclast.

Virtual sex will change things, though, no matter what. Even if men still insist on fucking women.

11/30/2007 1:29:25 PM

I guess there should be a crime like "attempted unlawful termination of a pregnancy" or something like that.

Pregnancy laws will always be lopsided. Either the man or the woman is placed at a disadvantage. And letting the man walk away if she keeps it is unfair to the child IMO. Ideally a child should have access to both its parents if both are alive.

The other thing is there is a perfectly sensible and cost-effective way for men to prevent pregnancy via vasectomies and freezing their semen at a lab. Only idiots with hangups about "not being a real man" could really object to that.

11/30/2007 1:54:42 PM

Quote :

"so the man shouldn't be charged for murder in your opinion b/c it's not a human yet?"

of course not

its not a legal person until she poops it out her cooter

11/30/2007 1:59:35 PM

Quote :

"The other thing is there is a perfectly sensible and cost-effective way for men to prevent pregnancy via vasectomies and freezing their semen at a lab. Only idiots with hangups about "not being a real man" could really object to that."

People have hangups about many things. As I said, I don't understand why humans insist on having penetrative intercourse.

11/30/2007 2:03:30 PM

Quote :

"Why can't it just be unfair? If a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby, she can abort it. If the man doesn't want it, tough luck...you shoulda spent a dollar on a condom...now you gotta spend exponentially more for the next 18 years... It's not fair, but it certainly seems better than allowing men to force abortions on women or making abortions illegal. "

Not to mention allowing men to force pregnancies on women either.

But, I guess the most consistent position would really be to ban all abortions. That way, instead of it being only fair to 1 person, it's equally unfair to all people.

11/30/2007 2:08:40 PM

Well penetrative vag sex is probably the most pleasurable form of sex to a lot of people. And then there's our society's own prudishness towards nontraditional sex in general.

11/30/2007 2:09:01 PM

Quote :

"As I said, I don't understand why humans insist on having penetrative intercourse."

Are you Gay??

What would you prefer, Antonio giving it to you in the butt. Or maybe phone sex while you use your blow up doll

[Edited on November 30, 2007 at 2:10 PM. Reason : a]

11/30/2007 2:10:06 PM

Quote :

"Are you Gay??"

Not exactly.

Quote :

"What would you prefer, Antonio giving it to you in the butt. Or maybe phone sex while you use your blow up doll"

Both of those would also qualify as penetrative intercourse. (Well, the second would is perhaps more complicated.) Neither will result in pregnancy, though, I'll give you that. But, as I noted earlier, sex doesn't have to be about sticking a penis in anything whatsoever.

[Edited on November 30, 2007 at 2:15 PM. Reason : queer]

11/30/2007 2:12:30 PM

Quote :

""sounds correct to me...i see no hypocrisy" its either gotta be murder all the time, or never. "

Yeah, for the way the laws in that state are written, it is hypocritical.

This seems like a good solution though:

Quote :

"he should be charged with practicing abortion without a licence, assault, and maybe breaking and entering. "

11/30/2007 2:12:33 PM

Quote :

"What would you prefer, Antonio giving it to you in the butt"

???

11/30/2007 2:14:57 PM