http://www.click2houston.com/news/14757048/detail.html

Quote :

" Protesters critical of a homeowner who fatally shot two suspected burglars were confronted by hundreds of the man's supporters during a rally on the street where the killings occurred. Yard signs declaring support for Joe Horn, 61, lined nearby streets Sunday in the Pasadena neighborhood where Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were killed Nov. 14. Horn's supporters parked motorcycles along the block Sunday and jeered protesters who called for Horn to be prosecuted. The supporters waved American flags and hoisted signs reading, "We love our neighbor for protecting our neighbors" and "Burglary is a risky business." Police officers in riot gear monitored the activities, but no arrests were made. Horn's attorney has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard and threatened him. But that description is partly at odds with Horn's call to 911 in which Horn threatens to kill the men despite the dispatcher's urging that Horn stay inside his house. "I support our rights as Americans to protect ourselves and support our Second Amendment rights," said Aaron Morrow, 43, one of dozens of bikers who revved their engines each time activist Quanell X attempted to speak. Quanell X has said that Horn, who is white, should be charged with murder for shooting DeJesus and Ortiz, who were black. After Sunday's counter-protest, he said he doesn't know if the shootings were racially motivated but said he "wouldn't be surprised." The families of the shooting victims were present Sunday. "Our position is that we do not condone their actions. We condemn their actions," Quanell X said. "But Horn acted as police officer, judge, jury and executioner all at the same time." Michelle Howell, who lives down the street from Horn, said she was in disbelief that the event had taken on racial overtones. "First of all, this is a quiet place, secondly we've got neighbors of all different races. This has nothing to do with race," she said."

I guess I really should not be surprised given that protesters stormed to LA during the whole Jena 6 incident demanding a black student who had been tried for previous violent crimes to be simply be let off the hook for severely beating a white student. I do not condone the old guy for taking the law into his own hands but these protests are simply ridiculous. The 2 African American men were breaking the law and stealing from someones house. I suppose due to racial tensions and the plight of the black man; they should be allowed to get away with burglary and assault in today's America.

I have no problem with people demanding this guy be brought to justice. What happens from there is up to the court. The part I have a problem with though is what I put in bold from the article.



[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 12:19 PM. Reason : a]

12/3/2007 12:16:42 PM

Ridiculous

12/3/2007 12:17:18 PM

the protests are stupid and in general I support his actions but...

this is the same incident where the 911 operator EXPLICITLY told him not to interfere

i can see why people are upset

12/3/2007 12:22:30 PM

a black man shooting 2 white kids who try to break into his house

WILL

NEVER

be accused of racism or shooting them with racial motivation.

USA #1

12/3/2007 12:26:42 PM

^ don't know where the sarcasm is

because that's basically true

they would be thought of as punk kids who deserved it

12/3/2007 12:30:50 PM

"those white boys walked into the wrong neighborhood"

12/3/2007 12:35:55 PM

^ exactly

^^ the sarcasm was obviously in the last line

12/3/2007 12:37:45 PM

Quote :

"this is the same incident where the 911 operator EXPLICITLY told him not to interfere "

The 911 operator has to say that. It's his job. Can you imagine the lawsuits if we had 911 operators telling people "yeah, go out and try and stop them"?

Incidentally the law seems to be on Horn's side, but it will certainly be an interesting trial.

Quote :

"Our position is that we do not condone their actions. We condemn their actions," Quanell X said. "But Horn acted as police officer, judge, jury and executioner all at the same time."

Perhaps, had the two choir boys in question not been breaking into his neighbor's home, or in the event they decided to continue with such a risky proposition simply surrendered when he confronted them or baring that had decided not to attack him, Horn would never have been put in the position of being all those things.

When the police are unable to act to protect us and our homes from criminals, the people must be the ones to step forward and do so.

12/3/2007 12:40:26 PM

Quote :

"a black man shooting 2 white kids who try to break into his house WILL NEVER be accused of racism or shooting them with racial motivation. "

Where does it say these guys were trying to break in to his house?

The article is not clear, but it almost seems like he saw the guys walking around his neighbors house, and called 911, who told him not to do anything, then he went outside to confront them, and shot them.

It's not clear if he actually saw them break in to the neighbor's house, or what they were doing when he shot them.

I would think if white kids were shot under similar circumstances, there'd be at least some complaints.

But, in general, if someone shoots someone, they should be charged, and cleared if they didn't do anything wrong. But we can't send the message to gun owners that its okay to be trigger happy. Gun owners live for the opportunity to shoot people, and we just have to encourage them to keep thinking rationally.

12/3/2007 12:54:18 PM

2 more off the streets. Thats how I see it. Race isnt an issue here.

12/3/2007 1:09:13 PM

Quote :

"It's not clear if he actually saw them break in to the neighbor's house, or what they were doing when he shot them."

They were probably just in the home buying market and wanted to check out the interior of the house, right?

12/3/2007 1:18:34 PM

^ Realistically, there's no information in the article to indicate what they're doing.

We're only presuming they were there to burgle because the article asserts they were suspected burglars. I have no reason to believe that Horn is completely in the clear, or the the suspected black guys did anything wrong, or vice versa, from any actual information presented in this thread.

It seems to me a lot of you are leaping to conclusions about what was going on, on the basis of an old white guy shooting 2 young black guys (with Spanish-y names). If anything, this bias lends some credence to the protesters saying Horn should be charged.

I think the guys probably deserved to be shot, because even the protesters are acknowledging they were burglars, but that doesn't mean that Horn shouldn't have to face the legal system, which should also exonerate him if he didn't do anything wrong.

What i'm not clear about though is what the guys were doing when Horn shot them, or where they were, and depending on that, he may have legally been in the wrong.

12/3/2007 1:29:13 PM

^gee, I dunno. Maybe one could assume they were breaking the law by the fact that the group protesting thier deaths also is condemning thier actions. Too much of a stretch?

12/3/2007 1:32:14 PM

^ Clearly didn't even read my post.

I explicitly said that, genius:

Quote :

"I think the guys probably deserved to be shot, because even the protesters are acknowledging they were burglars"

Actually, i'll give you some credit, because it's not clear which protesters i'm talking about, but I meant the ones headed up by the Quanell X guy.

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 1:34 PM. Reason : ]

12/3/2007 1:33:23 PM

In any dispute where people/a person of one race are on one side of an issue and people of another race are on the other side, there will be racial overtones. Doesn't mean the guy was racist or that he might not have shot the perpetrators if they were white.

Quote :

""Our position is that we do not condone their actions. We condemn their actions," Quanell X said. "But Horn acted as police officer, judge, jury and executioner all at the same time.""

I'm glad they said this. It's possible to advocate for fair treatment of a criminal without absolving him of his crime.

12/3/2007 1:36:22 PM

my problem is that the anti-Horn protestors are turning this into a racial issue. I expect Al Sharpton to fly down tomorrow and start beating the hate crime drum

12/3/2007 1:37:11 PM

^ Where does it show they are turning it in to a racial issue? It seems the media is doing this far more than the protesters.

As ShinAntonio said:

Quote :

" It's possible to advocate for fair treatment of a criminal without absolving him of his crime. "

12/3/2007 1:42:34 PM

The only thing I've gathered from the story is that the protesters think race COULD'VE been a factor in Horn's reaction to the robbery.

12/3/2007 1:44:14 PM

Quote :

"Where does it say these guys were trying to break in to his house? The article is not clear, but it almost seems like he saw the guys walking around his neighbors house, and called 911, who told him not to do anything, then he went outside to confront them, and shot them. It's not clear if he actually saw them break in to the neighbor's house, or what they were doing when he shot them. I would think if white kids were shot under similar circumstances, there'd be at least some complaints. But, in general, if someone shoots someone, they should be charged, and cleared if they didn't do anything wrong. But we can't send the message to gun owners that its okay to be trigger happy. "

The full 911 call is online here: http://www.break.com/index/brave-neighbor-kills-2-robbers-911-call2.html

some relevant law stuff here: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=186267

basically the gist is, he saw them break into the house via a side window with a crowbar, saw them enter the house, saw them leave the house with stuff, went out to confront them, and wound up shooting them.

And these guys weren't kids. They were 30 years old. Old enough to know the risks.

Quote :

"Gun owners live for the opportunity to shoot people, and we just have to encourage them to keep thinking rationally."

TWW Ignorant Quote of the Day Award

12/3/2007 2:36:01 PM

Redonkulous

12/3/2007 2:38:28 PM

Quote :

"Gun owners live for the opportunity to shoot people, and we just have to encourage them to keep thinking rationally."

I believe this.

12/3/2007 2:41:02 PM

It probably is a racial issue. We tend to be more sympathetic to people like us, and in many cases, that means people who look like us.

Joe Horn might have been more sympathetic to two white men. He may have felt less threatened or less inimidated by two white men. There's a chance that he may not have shot two white men. Not because he's some violent dude out to get black people but simply because he's more familiar with white people, finds white folks less menacing cause he's familiar with them and they look like him. There's a big chance that race was an issue here.

Either way, it doesn't matter. The two guys were stupid for going up into a white niehgborhood (Michelle Howell is full of shit.) to steal shit. What did they think was going to happen? And if they really did threaten an old white man with a gun, we have proof that they were fucking suicidal. I can't say I really give two shits that they're dead.

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 2:54 PM. Reason : ^I think that definitely applies to a good portion of them.]

12/3/2007 2:51:12 PM

Quote :

"Gun owners live for the opportunity to shoot people"

Quote :

"TWW Ignorant Quote of the Day Award"

12/3/2007 3:04:50 PM

Quote :

"It probably is a racial issue. We tend to be more sympathetic to people like us, and in many cases, that means people who look like us."

Thanks for your input Hillary.

Not that it was necessarily right for the guy to go vigilante on these criminals; but maybe if this was a more common occurrence wrong-doers might think twice before heisting someones shit.

12/3/2007 4:10:15 PM

Why are you calling me Hillary?

It's pretty evident from my username that my name is Bridget.

If you wanted this thread to be nothing but "Yeah, you're right, dude. Race clearly wasn't an issue here," then you should've said so.

12/3/2007 4:48:38 PM

Quote :

"basically the gist is, he saw them break into the house via a side window with a crowbar, saw them enter the house, saw them leave the house with stuff, went out to confront them, and wound up shooting them."

if this is the case, he should definitely be prosecuted for murder

you can't run up on criminals trying to be billy-badass citizen cop and not expect there to be some sort of confrontation where you may be threatened and feel you need to shoot people

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 4:55 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 4:53:28 PM

should he "definitely be prosecuted for murder" if the two burglars threatened him while in his yard? Sounds to me like if the two burglars indeed were on his property and were threatening his life, its not any type of clear cut murder charge...and since he hasn't been charged with murder I guess the cops agree, at least for the time being

we dont know all the facts yet though

also i'd just like to add (and i think i did this in the thread where the guy's "foot slipped off the brake" and he ended up killing one of the robbers, even though they were robbing his stuff) that imho this shit goes with the territory...if you make the choice to go around breaking into peoples' houses and stealing their stuff, eventually you're gonna get shot...if you're lucky, you'll eventually get arrested

12/3/2007 4:59:13 PM

Quote :

"should he "definitely be prosecuted for murder" if the two burglars threatened him while in his yard?"

if he approached the burglars, knowing full well they were burglars, then yes, he should be.

just like its illegal to chase after someone who just robbed your house, and shoot him in your front yard. its the exact same thing, except these guys didnt even rob HIS house

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:01 PM. Reason : ,]

12/3/2007 5:00:50 PM

- 2 robbers
- on HIS PROPERTY
- threatening HIS LIFE

(according to his story)

equals

no murder charge

what did he premeditate the killings while inside his house? or did he go to investigate, he was threatened, and he shot the men?

unfortunately the story we have so far doesnt mention whether or not either of the robbers had a weapon...i think thats an important piece of information...i think anyone would agree he has more right to shoot the guys if they both had guns, for example

12/3/2007 5:03:39 PM

if he saw two robbers robbing his neighbor, then they crossed over his lawn, he grabbed a gun, and went out to confront them, he's just as deserving of being shot as they are

you have to have more sense than that. pick up a phone, call the cops, get a tag #. lock your door, protect your family. stop trying to be dog the bounty hunter. he handled the situation terribly. if he confronted the robbers with a gun, you could construe the situation as him threatened the robbers!

but, yes, we're all speculating here, so what's the point

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:08 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:05:50 PM

so he's just as deserving to be SHOT as the CRIMINALS for confronting them?

give me a break, that is absurd

Quote :

"you could construe the situation as him threatened the robbers!"

I hear Quannell X is always looking for PR people

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:09 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:08:24 PM

^^

what?

how is a dude trying to protect his neighbors property as deserving to be shot as two criminals in the act of committing a crime.

people have been coddled by the nicities of a middle class life for FAR TOO LONG

to have ANY SYMPATHY for these assholes is totally unfounded

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:10 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:10:31 PM

GOOD ONE

seriously. what if that were the case. what if the robbers were leaving the scene. no weapons but a crowbar. and dude ran up on them with a gun? what then

i don't know what happened. i'm just playing devil's advocate here. am i sad that the robbers got shot and killed....uh, hell no. but i'm also not in favor of vigilante justice. this case doesn't really scream self-defense to me, just sayin

Quote :

"how is a dude trying to protect his neighbors property as deserving to be shot as two criminals in the act of committing a crime."

he's not as deserving. i was being facetious. but he won't get any sympathy from me if he's prosecuted. because if he is prosecuted, it'll be because he initiated the confrontation.

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:31 PM. Reason : /]

12/3/2007 5:11:20 PM

i'm not in favor of mobs trying to enact justice

but one dude trying to help protect his neighbor

I AM ALL FOR THAT

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:12:45 PM

Quote :

"pick up a phone, call the cops, get a tag #. lock your door, protect your family"

maybe he was protecting his family

i like how plenty of people are giving the homeowner a hard time...some even implying that he deserves to be prosecuted for murder...sounds like the opinion is that he is just a citizen, and he doesnt have the right to "take the law into his own hands" when he should let the real cops handle it

while that seems fine in theory, its pretty fucked up that anybody could side with the robbers to any extent, who choose to break into other peoples' houses and steal their hard earned shit...instead of siding with the homeowner, who is trying to protect his neighbor's property, and possibly trying to protect his own life and own family's life

btw over the thanksgiving long weekend we had a vehicle at work broken into (inside razor wire fence btw)...cut through the chain link fence, broke a window of a suburban, stole the spare tire, took the jack, used it to jack up another suburban, took one of the wheel/tire assemblies off the vehicle...basically stole two wheels and tires, as well as about $150 worth of glass repair on the truck...total damages about $1300, including cost of new wheels, etc...filed a police report...cops wouldnt even come out to dust for prints

the point of my anecdote is if you think the cops really give a shit about whether or not your neighbor's house is being broken into, you're mistaken, unless of course the neighbor is a cop...so jwb and others, what good is calling the cops and locking the doors going to do to get back your neighbor's property? i know I for one would like to have somebody like Joe Horn as my neighbor

12/3/2007 5:18:32 PM

Quote :

"pick up a phone, call the cops, get a tag #. lock your door, protect your family"

like a big ol' pussy

coddled

Quote :

"btw over the thanksgiving long weekend we had a vehicle at work broken into (inside razor wire fence btw)...cut through the chain link fence, broke a window of a suburban, stole the spare tire, took the jack, used it to jack up another suburban, took one of the wheel/tire assemblies off the vehicle...basically stole two wheels and tires, as well as about $150 worth of glass repair on the truck...total damages about $1300, including cost of new wheels, etc...filed a police report...cops wouldnt even come out to dust for prints the point of my anecdote is if you think the cops really give a shit about whether or not your neighbor's house is being broken into, you're mistaken, unless of course the neighbor is a cop...so jwb and others, what good is calling the cops and locking the doors going to do to get back your neighbor's property? i know I for one would like to have somebody like Joe Horn as my neighbor"

i didn't even really take that into consideration. petty criminals shouldn't be able to do these things with so little risk

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:21 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:19:35 PM

Quote :

"if he approached the burglars, knowing full well they were burglars, then yes, he should be. just like its illegal to chase after someone who just robbed your house, and shoot him in your front yard. its the exact same thing, except these guys didnt even rob HIS house "

I would like to know the full story. I do not see a problem with picking up his gun (for protection) and confronting the gangsters robbing the house. If the two criminals thereafter threatened or made a move to attack the guy he by all means has the right to defend himself. If the criminals saw the guy with the shotgun, dropped the 42" HDTV started running, and then were shot I might say the old guy broke the law.

For all the old guy knew these guys were coming to his house next. Good going old man; at least someone had the balls to stand up for his community and was looking after his neighbors.

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:24 PM. Reason : aa]

12/3/2007 5:21:58 PM

Quote :

"its pretty fucked up that anybody could side the the robbers, who choose to break into other peoples' houses and steal their hard earned shit...instead of siding with the homeowner"

this is why no one wants to debate you. you misconstrue shit so badly, ON PURPOSE, to make your point.

no one in this thread is siding with the robbers. more like, siding with the rule of law. you can't run-up on people and cap them. end of story. if it turns out the robbers threatened him, on his property, before any attempted intervention by the man, then he would be in the right.

12/3/2007 5:22:37 PM

^^

here ya go

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/17/national/main3517564.shtml

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:23:08 PM

Quote :

"like a big ol' pussy coddled"

RIIIIGHT, and if this guy had gotten shot and killed instead of the robbers you'd all be saying he's was stupid from confronting two brazen criminals. give me a fucking break

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:24 PM. Reason : ,]

12/3/2007 5:23:43 PM

Quote :

"you can't run-up on people and cap them."

well actually, here soon we'll find out if you can do just that

btw... this is TEXAS we're talking about so...

12/3/2007 5:24:30 PM

^haha, very true

12/3/2007 5:25:01 PM

^^^ nah

he confronted them ARMED

if he went out there fucking with them without a gun, then he would of been stupid

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 5:25 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2007 5:25:10 PM

Quote :

"you can't run-up on people and cap them. end of story"

you say something this black and white and say nobody wants to debate with ME?

how is it that "you can't run-up on people and cap them. end of story" but also apparently you CAN run-up in peoples houses, steal their shit, and be just fine

you make it sound like this guy just went out looking for trouble...he was at his house, on his own property...his neighbor was getting robbed...he wanted to make sure the possibly armed CRIMINALS didnt break in his house next...you make it sound like he just was driving around LOOKING for people to shoot...oh well remind me not to move next door to you

12/3/2007 5:26:21 PM

Quote :

"apparently you CAN run-up in peoples houses, steal their shit, and be just fine"

DO WHAT

i stopped right there.

12/3/2007 5:28:24 PM

Quote :

"if it turns out the robbers threatened him"

It should not matter if he was on his property or not. Good neighbor sees something suspicious next door and goes outside to investigate. Burglar gets angry that a witness caught them and pulls out a switchblade. Damn right if i am armed the criminal is getting a bullet to the dome piece. If I end up spending a few years so be it. I am not going to bust out my surveying kit to make the calculations of if the gangster is on my property thus allowing me to use lethal force when I am about to be stabbed with a knife or having some 260 lb guy level me out.

12/3/2007 5:28:51 PM

Quote :

"he wanted to make sure the possibly armed CRIMINALS didnt break in his house next..."

you don't know that

12/3/2007 5:28:54 PM

well its clear some people in this thread realize the state of the criminal injustice system, and other people are clueless

12/3/2007 5:33:50 PM

Quote :

"When the police are unable to act to protect us and our homes from criminals, the people must be the ones to step forward and do so"

12/3/2007 5:37:10 PM

i'm ready for BridgetSPK's mandatory: "but these guys aren't robbers they are just victims of an unjust society that leaves minorities fending to survive. These burglers were just doing what they needed to do in order to survive.

12/3/2007 5:37:46 PM