Lakota delegation declares Lakota control of Dakota territory:

http://indigenist.blogspot.com/2007/12/lakota-delegation-declares-lakota.html

What do y'all think of this? Here's one (amusing) reaction:

Quote :

"I'm all for it. I believe more tribes will follow suit, and those new tax-free zones may quickly become the richest parts of our country. Anyone with even a fraction of American Indian blood should feel proud today."

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/15933

[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 7:42 PM. Reason : epic fail on thread title... ah well]

12/20/2007 7:41:25 PM

throw'em some liquor they'll be happy---

on a more serious note, I think it will be interesting to see what the State Depts reaction will be. That's alot of land...

[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 7:52 PM. Reason : j/k j/k]

12/20/2007 7:48:31 PM

Uncle Sam didn't let them keep their land back when they legally won it during Andrew Jackson's term, and there's no reason he'll let them take it back now.

But hell, I hope they succeed anyway. It'll spice up this country's history some, and if they win it will finally set a precedent that will allow us to tear this country (and therefore the current government) apart much quicker.

12/20/2007 7:55:20 PM

ahahahhaha, what a joke

12/20/2007 8:09:47 PM

Quote :

"Uncle Sam didn't let them keep their land back when they legally won it during Andrew Jackson's term, and there's no reason he'll let them take it back now."

I like to think that we've become more enlightened since Andrew Jackson's time.

12/20/2007 8:50:03 PM

Perhaps, but I'm a pessimistic person, especially when it has to do with our current governmental system.

12/20/2007 9:00:39 PM

If it weren't a joke, I'd say roll in the tanks . . . well, actually, I wouldn't, because we won't need to, because if I understand it correctly they would be a very small minority in their "independent" country.

12/20/2007 9:01:58 PM

Yeah, killing Indians in the 21st century would be a wonderful idea.

Why not extend an American tradition?

12/20/2007 9:20:04 PM

^^

we did steal their land, commit genocide, and treated them w/o the least bit of humanity throughout history. Whenever I hear black people bitching about civil rights I just b.c they have far less claim for "reparations" or racial desparity then native americans. I do not believe african americans are owed anything in contrast to Al Sharpton but I genuinely believe we have a debt to pay to the Native Americans.

12/20/2007 9:32:58 PM

what the hell are you talking about?

we forcibly took africans from their homeland and made them and their children and their children's children work for us as slaves

trying to decide which is worse is a stupid endeavour

...

of course, you're just being a dick who want's to give black people and their struggle a hard time

12/20/2007 9:36:28 PM

Quote :

"we forcibly took africans from their homeland "

FORCIBLY!?!?!

haha . They were enslaved by other AFRICANS and SOLD to americans/spanish/whoever.
They are pretty much equals here today. Slavery sucks but its over. The plight of Native Americans dwarves that of African Americans. If you think otherwise you are honestly an ignorant fuck.

12/20/2007 9:38:58 PM

yes, forcibly... we provided the market

how it was precisely done is of no consequence

we've basically ruined both sets of cultures...

it's obvious that you just have an ax to grind against black people

that's fine, but don't act like give two shits about one more than the other, because I would bet good money that you do not

[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 9:44 PM. Reason : .]

12/20/2007 9:42:22 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, killing Indians in the 21st century would be a wonderful idea."

I don't care about killing Indians, I care about killing separatists. I know you're on this whole, "no laws, no nations" kick now, and that's great, but I've seen what happens when every population with a historical claim to a piece of land starts acting on it, and what happens is fucking Yugoslavia.

12/20/2007 9:46:43 PM

^

GET DEM REBS!

...

oh, and don't forget England and how the Empire on which the Sun never set turned into what it it TODAY

[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 9:50 PM. Reason : .]

12/20/2007 9:47:15 PM

^^ It's a bit more complicated than that, considering the history of relations between Amerindian tribes and the US government. They've been semi-independent for a while now.

As you would expect, though, I'm completely against killing separatists in all cases.

12/20/2007 10:31:15 PM

Quote :

"we've basically ruined both sets of cultures"

i'd beg to differ. I think the African Americn community is thriving in America. Now that the system of slavery is long passed and the hard work of certain civil rights figures has helped break down the racial barrier; I beleive that Black people especially those with dedication to achieve like every other american are pretty integrated into our culture. Even within our society they promote and possess a very rich and thriving African American culture as a subset of the American society.

BTW No i do not have a problem with any person based on skin color.

12/20/2007 10:39:38 PM

Awesome, as I am somewhere around 5% Cherokee.

All we need to do is declare Carolina's (North and South) independence and we will be set on the road to greatness and prosperity. Secession is the way ladies and gents.

Forza Carolina!

[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 10:52 PM. Reason : .]

12/20/2007 10:49:37 PM

^^

oh yes, thank god we came and saved the black man from their savage squalor
only as integrating as best as they can in our white culture can they possibly hope to survive

what you put forward is pretty typical and boring

12/20/2007 10:55:59 PM

i mean, black folks should probably be thanking white people, right HUR?

[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 11:09 PM. Reason : /]

12/20/2007 11:08:38 PM

^ well......



[Edited on December 20, 2007 at 11:18 PM. Reason : life expectancy]

12/20/2007 11:17:34 PM

i just want to point out that i'm not wishy washy

africa sucks, lets not try to parse that out

it's just that HUR has this sort of self-congratulating, finger pointing form of racism that we should all despise

12/20/2007 11:23:01 PM

Quote :

"It's a bit more complicated than that"

It really, really isn't. It's a population with a historical claim to land grabbing after it, in spite of the many changes that have happened since they last possessed it. Do you know what happens when a population that perceives itself as oppressed by the old majority takes control? The Balkan Wars happen. Rwanda happens. Bad things happen.

Quote :

"As you would expect, though, I'm completely against killing separatists in all cases."

Of course you are. You're against killing everybody ever because killing is always wrong and it can never do anything good and whatever other bullshit you want to talk because you live in a country where your life and way of life aren't really in danger.

It's OK, though. You never have to kill anybody and you can even vote against people who are willing to kill anybody. You can do all of that and still reap the benefits of living in a society that is at times kept safe, prosperous, and even free by violence or the real threat of it.

12/20/2007 11:51:43 PM

The individuals who withdrew from the treaty aren't from any represented entity. they aren't even represented by the tribes.

12/20/2007 11:53:53 PM

Quote :

"oh yes, thank god we came and saved the black man from their savage squalor only as integrating as best as they can in our white culture can they possibly hope to survive what you put forward is pretty typical and boring"

WTF. If you are tired and sick of the white man putting you down move back to fucking africa. What are you seriously bitching at. An ENTIRE race was forcibly removed and nearly wiped out by white ambition in N. America. Yes history is history but do not act like only one group have ever been victims. Move the fuck on.

12/20/2007 11:55:59 PM

I don't know if this carries any weight since I can't verify the true strength of this news source, but an alternative view from the Native American community:

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096416315

Quote :

"The 2007 Mantle of Shame Awards Russell Means - for his mid-December announcement in D.C. that he is unilaterally withdrawing the Lakota Sioux from treaties with the United States. News flash to Means: treaties are made between nations; you are a person and not a nation; you are not empowered to speak for the Great Sioux Nation; as an individual, you can only withdraw yourself from coverage of your nation's treaties. (Means is the same Oglala Sioux actor who tried to beat domestic violence charges by challenging the sovereign authority of the Navajo Nation to prosecute him - he took it all the way to the Supreme Court and lost.) "

Also from the Independence Movement's website:

Quote :

"We do not represent those BIA or IRA governments beholden to the colonial apartheid system, or those "stay by the fort" Indians who are unwilling claim their freedom."

My question is this. Does this small band of representatives truly carry the legal backing of the Lakota Sioux tribal government, or at very least a significant portion of the Lakota Sioux tribal members? Or is this just a group of isolated extremists trying to grab media attention? If they are not members of the tribal government, can they legally withdraw from a treaty?

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 12:39 AM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 12:39:36 AM

Quote :

"If they are not members of the tribal government, can they legally withdraw from a treaty?"

Not unless they withdraw from the tribal government and set up their own *recognized* government over themselves, which these have not done.

The whole tribal sovereignty system is inane and anachronistic anyway. Essentially what it allows is for these groups to claim independence while going unrecognized by foreign governments and watching their people languish in America's worst squalor.

12/21/2007 2:31:35 AM

THESE RED FUCKS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN INJUN TERRORISTS

Send in the marines and scalp these godless buffalo munching drunks

12/21/2007 4:05:08 AM

I won't be happy until every inch of north america is given back

every inch

that's right

12/21/2007 5:50:10 AM

Given back to whom? White man did an efficient job in their attempts to eliminate as many Native Americans as they could during their Manifest Destiny.

12/21/2007 6:21:02 AM

good point

12/21/2007 6:30:07 AM

i think its safe to say white people ruin everything eventually....


The Lakota Nation has been historically very anti US government (who would blame them). I went to the crazy horse monument a few years ago (all of mt rushmore will fit in to Crazy Horse's head) and talked with some of the Dakota Indians I think. The were talking about how they've been working on the monument for over 50 years and it will take 100 more to finish b/c they only accept private donations and revenue from their businesses to build it. The flatly refuse any federal funding, and apparently it really pisses off the gov.

got a really good book there too "Mitaku Oyasin" which apparenly is like a lakota slogan.

They're also in a conflict with South Dakota over one of their scared grounds that gets over taken by bikers during the big bike rally.

12/21/2007 10:38:00 AM

Quote :

"i think its safe to say white people ruin everything eventually...."

oh, I don't know...

Western Civilization seems to be doing JUST FINE

12/21/2007 11:16:45 AM

Clearly we need to start a War on White People.

12/21/2007 11:25:19 AM

yeah, they should do that

the planet could totally do to burn off half it's people

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 11:27 AM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 11:27:20 AM

Quote :

"Western Civilization seems to be doing JUST FINE"

maybe you didn't see

Quote :

"eventually...."

just give it some time.

Quote :

"Clearly we need to start a War on White People."

eventhough it was tongue and cheek, that type of thinking is the root of the problem imo.



[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 11:45 AM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 11:41:01 AM

All private property systems require a statute of limitations of some kind, and by the standards of every system ever used, it has expired on the Native Americans.

Of course, from the same perspective, there would be nothing wrong with a change of administration over the Dakota territory. If the state yields to some indian nation then everything will be all right as long as the new administrators honor the existing titles to ownership. Otherwise, the land property system will suddenly be beyond use, making the territory substantially poorer than it otherwise would be by cutting it off from credit markets, dispute settlement, etc etc.

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 11:45 AM. Reason : .,.]

12/21/2007 11:43:59 AM

Quote :

"It really, really isn't. It's a population with a historical claim to land grabbing after it, in spite of the many changes that have happened since they last possessed it. Do you know what happens when a population that perceives itself as oppressed by the old majority takes control? The Balkan Wars happen. Rwanda happens. Bad things happen."

So the solution is to roll the tank in against the oppressed group, right? If the Indians take power, they might massacre us all. You don't want America to end up like the Balkans, do you? This argument is especially bizarre considering that I don't see any talk of violence from the Lakota. The aren't out to kill white folk. They're inviting Americans to hang with them and not pay taxes. A fucking Ron Paul supporter can't wait to sign up.

No, Grumpster, this ain't Rwanda. Keep your tanks to yourself. I'm not in favor of setting up new governments, but I'd be quite pleased if groups across the country rejected control and hierarchy. We should all break with the federal government.

Quote :

"Of course you are. You're against killing everybody ever because killing is always wrong and it can never do anything good and whatever other bullshit you want to talk because you live in a country where your life and way of life aren't really in danger."

Yeah, yeah. I'm not opposed to personal self-defense, though I dislike it when people glorify such violence.

Quote :

"It's OK, though. You never have to kill anybody and you can even vote against people who are willing to kill anybody. You can do all of that and still reap the benefits of living in a society that is at times kept safe, prosperous, and even free by violence or the real threat of it."

Maybe the state and its gun do keep things relatively safe. Okay. I'll still choose freedom over that. As Shevek said, "But they are not safe options. Freedom is never very safe." I don't know that I agree with him, but can accept it if it's true.

12/21/2007 11:46:31 AM

i think what grumpy is trying to say is that if you give an inch they WILL take a mile, the entire process is a slippery slope and an empire must maintain territorial integrity

every little village in the entire world ultimately wants their own sovereignty

the best thing you can do is try to appease them the best you can with words, if they get out of line, tell them to fuck off, if they REALLY get out of line, line them up against the wall and do what comes naturally

12/21/2007 11:59:01 AM

Well, I'm in favor of destroying order and the state. I don't want to see any little states created in the process, though.

12/21/2007 12:01:12 PM

i don't really follow what people believe here

what are you, an anarchist?

12/21/2007 12:03:08 PM

Quote :

"i think what grumpy is trying to say is that if you give an inch they WILL take a mile"

god knows the us gov does.

i think that's the root of the issue. They don't feel they should be given anything, in their eyes, it's always been theirs. You can't give some one what's already theirs



[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 12:04 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 12:04:16 PM

Quote :

"what are you, an anarchist?"

Pretty much. Sometimes I prefer libertarian socialist.

12/21/2007 12:05:25 PM

the us government is one of the most forgiving and non-directly imperialist entities in all of human history

they maintain control over a vast sphere in the world but the direct impact on the "occupied" populations is almost nil

we do not tax the Germans, the South Koreans, the Iraqis, or any of the peoples which share the same space as our military

remember, we COULD be directly setting up our own local governments and taxing the shit out of these people

...

^

that's fine, all I would suggest is that you come back with us to non-lala land

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 12:08:43 PM

Quote :

"i don't really follow what people believe here what are you, an anarchist?"

nope, just not a big fan of huge centralized gov thinking they know whats best for everyone....and moreso than that, people accepting it....I like to see the lakota nation for standing up against it, especially after what the us gov put them through for centuries

^that's almost comical

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 12:10:20 PM

Quote :

"we COULD be directly setting up our own local governments and taxing the shit out of these people"

You're right, occupying their countries without their consent, throwing out their old leaders, and setting up a pro-US puppet government isn't imperialistic at all.

12/21/2007 12:11:26 PM

Quote :

"the us government is one of the most forgiving and non-directly imperialist entities in all of human history"

Uh, I don't know about that. As far as governments go, ours isn't the worst that's ever existed. I'll give you that much.

Quote :

"remember, we COULD be directly setting up our own local governments and taxing the shit out of these people"

I'd laugh if we tried to do that to the Germans.

Quote :

"that's fine, all I would suggest is that you come back with us to non-lala land"

Don't hold your breath.

12/21/2007 12:12:25 PM

^^

yeah, it's kind of imperialistic

so what?

it's the province of the big kid on the block

just be happy you live in this country and not THAT country

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 12:12 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 12:12:49 PM

Quote :

" I'd laugh if we tried to do that to the Germans."

oh really, you mean the same people who allowed themselves to be involved, directly and passively, in the worst atrocity of all of human history

yeah, you could totally not control those people

[Edited on December 21, 2007 at 12:14 PM. Reason : .]

12/21/2007 12:14:41 PM

Quote :

"I like to see the lakota nation for standing up against it, especially after what the us gov put them through for centuries"

Amen. What really worries me is how folks respond to the topic. They usually cite a bunch of racist stereotypes and then note how we can kick the shit out the Indians if they push their luck.

12/21/2007 12:14:44 PM

Quote :

"i think its safe to say white people ruin everything eventually...."

hahaha

I love it when people say shit like this.

12/21/2007 12:23:38 PM