Quote :

"The number of lethal prescription drug overdoses has soared 84 percent in five years. And now, more people die from prescription drug overdoses than cocaine and heroin combined. Abuse prevention expert Linda Surks said, 'There's a perception that they are safe … and that can't be further from the truth.' Surks had been working in drug prevention for more than a decade, when her son, Jason, overdosed and died."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainManagement/story?id=4250421&page=1

I was surprised when I saw these numbers. Given the "War on Drugs"--illegal drugs--and the influence of Big Pharma on policymaking in this country, I think this is a worthy topic for discussion.

2/7/2008 11:59:24 AM

Sounds like the doctors just suck and aren't paying attention.

Reminds me of the latest nip tuck episode where the lady asks him to make her look like a cat, and only after the surgery does he come to realize she was off her bipolar meds.

2/7/2008 12:07:54 PM

^ Yeah, but this is not surprising to you?

Quote :

"The number of lethal prescription drug overdoses has soared 84 percent in five years. And now, more people die from prescription drug overdoses than cocaine and heroin combined."

2/7/2008 12:14:28 PM

further illustrates the ignorance of drug stigma in our country.

2/7/2008 12:16:09 PM

^ Please explain.

2/7/2008 12:16:58 PM

drug abuse is a problem in america, unfortunately it appears to be the doctors that are causing it, not some shady street dealer. many drug users i know (of the illegal sort) are extremely careful about their use, to the point that if something is even questionable they don't use it. they also generally stay away from the addictive shit.

however, those that are given drugs by doctors believe the doctors implicitly. the fact that our society is becoming a 'pill' society which relies on medicine to fix even the smallest of things leads to things like overprescriptions.

people need to learn to tough out most of the problems and only use medicine when their bodies can't handle the problem.

2/7/2008 12:20:44 PM

It's not just the doctors that don't pay attention -- there's plenty that might as well be drug dealers. A large portion of so-called "pain centers" are basically just prescription factories. I've driven my recovering-alcoholic, painkiller-addicted uncle to enough of them to be disgusted with the lot of them, although I know there are pain centers that are legitimate (you can tell, because these are the ones that turned away an obviously addict).

By the same token, there are plenty of restrictions on the process (again, because I hear ol' druggie complain about them), and while very inconvenient they are largely useless.

Really I'm not sure how to deal with the problem at all, except, I suppose, by expanding anti-drug advertisement and education to deal more with prescriptions. Certainly I don't think it's reasonable to go after the doctors with much force -- they've got enough liability issues as it is.

2/7/2008 12:23:03 PM

^ Yeah, there's a lot of fear on the part of doctors even when administering legitimately needed pain-management medications and writing prescriptions for pain. This issue is definitely multilayered.

[Edited on February 7, 2008 at 12:31 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2008 12:30:34 PM

no matter what problem you have nowadays, there is a pill to fix it, and this practice is rarely questioned by the mainstream b/c its become acceped in society....whereas drugs that are labeled as "bad" by our society are condemed, even if there are proven benefits in certain aspects of use.

its become an attitude of it's "bad b/c it's illegal", or "it's not illegal, so it must be OK".

you find a doctor to perscribe you something, and you're in the clear regardless of if you need it, or if you are abusing it. imo, it's got alot to do with drug companies and their deep pockets.

2/7/2008 1:50:53 PM

drugs are bad.....

unless of course they were researched, developed, and allow big Pharma to make $texas. then drugs are good! and get nice euphemistic names instead of the names of the evil street drugs (amphetamines, heroin, etc)

2/7/2008 3:01:18 PM

^I thought you'd be on board with such a system.

In the thread about the lottery, you said that people's stupidity is their own problem.

2/7/2008 3:07:30 PM

Quote :

"get nice euphemistic names instead of the names of the evil street drugs (amphetamines, heroin, etc)"

um

[Edited on February 7, 2008 at 3:14 PM. Reason : um]

2/7/2008 3:12:22 PM

If people want it...they will find a sucker to prescribe it for them. There are many drug shoppers nowadays and it really stinks. Dr. are starting to be more wary of these things but not enough so.

2/7/2008 3:26:50 PM

If people can just get whatever they want anyways, why not abolish the FDA and prescriptions altogether?

Maybe then I'd be able to get what I need to get to sleep

2/7/2008 4:53:31 PM

Quote :

"In the thread about the lottery, you said that people's stupidity is their own problem. "

Well its the same kind of hypocrisy. Gambling is bad/evil/outlawed in many cases while the state sponsored lottery is "ok."

Likewise we have the "war on drugs" while big pharma who pays a lot of $$$ to lobbyists in Washington manufacture drugs many of which are analogs of street drugs to which they are allowed to sell legally.

In both cases the gov't is acting like a fucking nanny in an effort to protect people from themselves. If I want to sit around my apartment and smoke pot all day they should be my choice and right. Victimless crimes are bullshit

2/7/2008 5:00:21 PM

Merck to Pay $650 Million In Medicaid Settlement

Quote :

"Merck agreed yesterday to pay more than $650 million to settle charges that it routinely overbilled the government for its most popular medicines, the arthritis drug Vioxx and the cholesterol drug Zocor, cheating Medicaid out of millions of dollars in discounts over eight years."

Quote :

"Merck did not admit wrongdoing."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/07/AR2008020701336.html?hpid=sec-business

It's not nice to fool Uncle Sam.

2/9/2008 12:21:08 AM

so are you insinuating that it is good that a company that lied and took advantage of the gov't is paying out or that this is something to do with the liberal conspiracy and the drug company is the victim???

2/9/2008 2:38:21 AM

^ Um. . .I think my position was clear--except to buffoons. Companies shouldn't be ripping people off--especially the People--and now one is paying the price. Good.

2/9/2008 5:04:18 AM

Quote :

"Sounds like the doctors just suck and aren't paying attention. Reminds me of the latest nip tuck episode where the lady asks him to make her look like a cat, and only after the surgery does he come to realize she was off her bipolar meds. "

You arent serious? I saw that episode and laughed at it. You have no idea all the bullshit we go through before and after a patient arrives just to get reimbursed for our services. Now we need to do a complete background check? We have a form for them to fill out, if they lie its our problem?

You are so right about the "pill" society. Everyone wants a pill, well at least one that doesnt cost them anything. There are prescription factories out there as well. I get asked once every couple months to write for some weed. I know if I did that within 1 month Id have a line outside the door of everyone wanting the same thing. Some go down that path, give into the seeker and the news spreads like wildfire. The good news is the feds usually look into those practices and shut them down. THe bad news is that usually takes years to do, talk about govt effiency, and many more get hooked.

You cant legislate against stupidity. People will find away to get high. Its now easier to gun than some damn sudafed. We going to outlaw air conditioners too?

Hooksaw, Just because they paid 650M that isnt necesarily how much they overbilled. Could be more, but its usually less. How a govt(medicare/caid) audit works they ask for a number of charts. Lets say you did a procedure but didnt enclose the report form in the chart..or it got lost. So one out of the ten fail the audit. Now they assume that you are fraudulent in 10% of ALL your claims. So you have to send back 10% of ALL the money medicare/caid sent you. Its total bs and can ruin a business overnight. There are some that routinely know they are breaking the rules, but the majority of the mistakes are just that.

2/9/2008 9:34:30 AM

Glaxo Cuts Price of HIV Drugs For World's Poorest Countries

Quote :

"LONDON -- GlaxoSmithKline PLC said it cut prices on HIV drugs to developing countries, marking the fifth discount since 1997. The most significant reduction is an almost 40% cut on Ziagen, a pill the World Health Organization recommends as a first- and second-line treatment, particularly for children. The average discount across its 14 not-for-profit HIV drugs was 21%, the company said."

Quote :

"'These prices will take effect immediately for public-sector customers and not-for-profit organizations in the least developed countries and sub-Saharan Africa' as well as other eligible countries, the company said."

Quote :

"Drug makers say they are doing more than ever to help the world's poor with initiatives designed to get health care to millions who can't afford to pay Western prices."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120345902987478147.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

See? Big Pharma's not all bad, right, comrades?

2/20/2008 11:45:12 PM

thats great and all, but they are just going to pass on that discount in the form of a price hike to us.

2/21/2008 7:53:48 AM

^There's a big chance that they won't do that.

They're trying to perform a charity in order to get some good press.

And you won't even give them that.

[Edited on February 21, 2008 at 8:19 AM. Reason : Seriously, they've been passing up on mad loot just to look like good people.]

2/21/2008 8:17:26 AM

No. GSK is the worst of the worst. Those sons of bitches have NO souls. They are probably the most cutthroat company I have ever seen in their pursuit of the fucking bottom line, and looking for every loop hole to keep their damn patents for longer than they are supposed to, so generic versions of their drugs don't come out on the market.

2/21/2008 9:06:26 AM

Course what kills me is the non pill pusher docs or the ones who grow *exceptionally* paranoid about that kind of liability, wind up not prescribing whats legitimitely needed in some cases.

Point in case- NCSU student health. It doesnt matter how standard the treatment is for whats wrong with you, they're hesitant as hell to prescribe anything but birth control - painkillers or not becuase they're terrified of litigation. And you dont even hvae to be talking addictive anything, or anything that would be used recreationally in NCSU's case.

If you know how to work the system- you get exactly what you want.
If you don't- you get screwed becuase it's assumed yo'ure out to cheat/lie/steal your way into anything.

And it's the same with everything the gov has their paws in - medicine, welfare, disability, you name it.

2/23/2008 2:28:29 PM

Quote :

"furikuchan: No. GSK is the worst of the worst. Those sons of bitches have NO souls. They are probably the most cutthroat company I have ever seen in their pursuit of the fucking bottom line, and looking for every loop hole to keep their damn patents for longer than they are supposed to, so generic versions of their drugs don't come out on the market."

True.

I give it up to those folks who actually research and develop the drugs though.

2/23/2008 3:35:28 PM

Quote :

"I was surprised when I saw these numbers. Given the "War on Drugs"--illegal drugs--and the influence of Big Pharma on policymaking in this country, I think this is a worthy topic for discussion. "

how do you go from "people are irresponsible and ODing on perscription drugs" to "it's all Big Pharma's fault!"??

[Edited on February 23, 2008 at 3:49 PM. Reason : asdfgyhujkl;']

2/23/2008 3:48:08 PM

Quote :

"painkillers or not becuase they're terrified of litigation"

yeah; my junior year I got really sick with excruciating pain in my kidneys. Everytime i walked it felt like someone was sticking me on both sides of my back with daggers. Some of my friends said i need to hit up the ER b.c i was yellow in the face and i missed three days of work b.c i felt sickly, fatigued, and grimmacing b.c of my kidneys everytime i took a step.

On the 2nd day i went to student health and i described to them how much pain i was in so they handed me a pack of Tylenol (which didn't do shit) and told me to sweat it out. I've usually had good experiences with student health but this still to the day pisses me off. So i just laid around in agony until it whatever it was went away.

2/23/2008 4:10:01 PM

What really irks me about the prescription drug abuse problem in this country is that most of the doctors have already bought into the mentality that everything can and SHOULD be fixed with pills. The last few doctors I went to tried to prescribe drugs for every little thing they thought I might need. I had to get a cyst removed a year ago, and the doctor was adament that I should get a prescription for vicodin or something similar even after I told him that opiates make me uncomfortably itchy and I don't take drugs with acetaminophen in them.

Another doctor tried to prescribe cholesterol lowering medicines to me when my cholesterol reading was ~200. She even went as far as to tell me that the number didn't seem high and that I didn't have any other risk factors such as being overweight, smoking, or high blood pressure to make her concerned about my cholesterol. That didn't stop her from trying to prescribe a statin though, and the only reason she didn't is because I told her I would refuse to take a drug with a long list of side effects to treat something that might not even be a problem.

2/23/2008 6:06:46 PM

I'm happy that you may be the exception to the rule of the noncompliant patient, eleusis, but you are failing to concede that the average patient will not make an effort to be informed about treatment or even to take adequate care of themselves.

And thus enters pharmacotherapy into the picture.

Outside of the occasional free pen or lunch doctors don't exactly have incentive to prescribe more as far as financial gain is concerned. The real reason they prescribe more is due to CYA medicine that has been propagated by a system of irresponsibility for one's own health and a naturally litigious society.

From a larger perspective, pharmacotherapy tends to be more effective than preventive measures(since most people are noncompliant) and is less invasive than surgery.

I understand your frustrations with the current non-perfect system but it has been propagated by something larger than the majority of docs out there.

2/23/2008 6:24:32 PM

sadly i know all about this cycle and i know where it all comes from. so i will tell my side of the story, and let you all know why its sad that the doctors are under the microscope while your grandparents are getting rich becoming drug dealers. obviously its not everyone, so dont get mad at me. but when youre old and on a fixed income, then a few bottles of pills a month worth a fuckton of money on the street is like a gift from god, and a lot of them are gonna do things they normally wouldnt do, like sell them to kids

its not the doctors fault that the average pill addict knows EXACTLY what to say to get the pills, and knows that there are VERY FEW warning signs that will throw up a red flag. also, experienced addicts who can lie and get a bottle of vicodin here and there are gonna eat it, not divert it to people who might die from taking it

doctors can't measure pain with any real readings besides blood pressure and heartrate, and those could be anything. although they present a lot in pain. they also present a lot in people who are nervous. but they've taken an oath (thank god) to help us be healthy and pain free (essentially)

but the problem isnt with what the average addict knows, its with the older generations and how fucking terribly poor they are, and how much medicine they divert. i knew a lady (she is dead now, its ok to talk about what she did!). she had lupus and got prescribed a FUCKTON of bottles of strong drugs @ 90,120 count each month. they only cost her 3 bucks due to medicaid. soon you learn that you dont need all of them, and you have hundreds of pills left over every month that only cost you 20 bucks that are worth THOUSANDS of dollars. there's your diversion. greedy old people who dont care that they are selling POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS DRUGS like dilaudid, morphine, percocet, fentanyl patches, vicodin, etc to 18-25 year old kids for hundreds of dollars profit at a time. im not sure which ones exactly are only 3 bucks with medcaid or whatever, but im pretty sure morphine sufate 30mg was. get 120 of those a month for 3 bucks. sell them at 5 each to a dealer for 600 dollars, and you just made 597 dollars in 5 minutes.

then you still have 5 other prescriptions. you havent even been to your shrink yet to get your adderall and xanax and all that shit.

i likelly (unfortunately) invest more time and cash into drug programs than anyone else here, and i know all about the ways that different people come up with their drugs of choice... and yes, it is usually prescription stuff (or at least starts that way until it moves to heroin). the problem in america's drug culture (all parties involved) is that the shit is legal for the people who are getting it. then your tax dollars usually pay to have it filled. then it goes into the black market and the old cancer patient who gets it prescribed makes 2000 bucks in a day (per month) selling pills (or double that if they sell as a street level dealer).

and because we dont want our grandparents and old war heroes and etc going into old age in pain and unable to take care of their medical needs, we allow them to have the 3 dollar bottles of pills. hell, i want it for my grandma. but unfortunately, if they ever want to put a dent in the problem of prescription drug diversion they're gonna have to STOP blaming the REAL HELPERS like doctors and pharmacists, and take the microscope off them, and look at the people getting the pills, and keep tabs on where they are going. especially if we are paying hundreds per month per citizen, and half of them are just selling their extra pills to kids.

2/23/2008 7:24:23 PM

I'm going to remember this thread the next them there's a thread about legalizing recreational drugs. Because it seems that this would just amplify the problems noted in this thread.

2/23/2008 8:36:08 PM

prescription drugs arent recreational drugs

tons of prescription drugs (especially those that are worth money on the black market, or those used "recreationally") are listed as controlled substances, drugs with a high potential for abuse. therefore, the doctor has to have a good reason to prescribe them. they'll never get out into the general public. at least not without liars and diverters. i don't think you'll ever have to "worry" about those being legalized... they should look at the root of the problem

because they already are legal. you've gotta understand that lots of the shit they show in these news reports is for terminally ill people. you don't have to worry about your kids finding 80mg oxycontin tablets "beside the toothpaste" - unless you have a painful, usually terminal, disesase. ive only known diversion of strong drugs to come from people with cancer, lupus, and sickle cell

as long as people know that if they want their vicodin they need to know where they rate here:



it will always be available, even to the liars. it really is that easy for someone to get it. "ohhh it hurts about there (points to the 8 guy, gets some extra strength percocet or dilaudid) -- and it would be cruel to take it away from everyone because of the liars and diverters. thats why its so important to keep an eye on the people who get it, and not the doctors who are just doing their job to help people

anyways keep that in your little folder too for when you crusade against drugs, so you'll be informed and not hurt people who actually need the drugs.

2/23/2008 9:52:45 PM

Quote :

"Outside of the occasional free pen or lunch doctors don't exactly have incentive to prescribe more as far as financial gain is concerned. The real reason they prescribe more is due to CYA medicine that has been propagated by a system of irresponsibility for one's own health and a naturally litigious society. "

I wasn't trying to imply that doctors prescribe medicine because of financial gain; I know good and well that your average doctor isn't going to get anything more than a cheap t-shirt and a generic pen from most pharmaceutical companies. Instead, doctors have given up on telling people how to adjust their diet and/or lifestyle to fix small medical problems because they realize the majority of their patients won't follow through with their instructions. When you tell a person that they should diet and exercise and stop smoking, they won't follow through on the advice. When you give it to them straight and tell them that their high blood pressure or type II diabetes is a direct result of them being a lazy fatass, they take it as an insult instead of as a wakeup call. It's hard to blame the pharmaceutical companies for seeing a quick dollar to be made off of all the people who would rather take a pill than try to actively manage their health.

Jackleg, the diversion of prescription drugs from terminal people with excess legitimate prescriptions only accounts for a small portion of the source. There was so much oxycontin floating around on the black market years ago that the only place it could have came from is hijackings of shipments leaving the manufacturing facilities. Pharmacy robberies and fraud have also account for a large portion of the black market supply.

2/23/2008 10:59:11 PM