Seriously, I've been watching basketball for a long time and I've never seen this poor of officiating in my entire life. Is there going to be an investigation? It's going to break soon and it will be bigger than this Roger Clemens thing. This shit is getting out of control. 31 points from the line for UNC and only 7 FT attempts for Clemson? Come the fuck on.

2/10/2008 10:46:46 PM

this has never been done before

i dont even think this has ever been said before

2/10/2008 10:48:23 PM

I know, but shit deserves its own thread.. this needs to be brought into the light. I don't understand how these refs aren't held accountable for this.

[Edited on February 10, 2008 at 10:50 PM. Reason : s]

2/10/2008 10:49:06 PM

It's being discussed in (http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=512794)

Come join the fun, troll dude

2/10/2008 10:50:53 PM

^ didn't see that thread, but still can be used for the rest of this debacle of a season. I'm sure at this pace there will be some more WTF calls that completely change the game.

[Edited on February 10, 2008 at 10:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/10/2008 10:53:54 PM

how many aliases does jaybee use? seriously.

2/10/2008 11:05:35 PM

IF you have been watching ACC basketball for "a long time" you would know that ACC refereeing has been bad for years.

2/10/2008 11:05:57 PM

^^ wtf? how about zero

2/10/2008 11:06:19 PM

nothing beats the officiating in cameron indoor for one-sided calls


what makes great collegiate coaches?
1) recruiting
2) working refs
3) x's & o's


hence, the coach ks & roy williams of the world are able to get the calls that the sid lowes & oliver parnells just can't

2/10/2008 11:11:28 PM

b/c sid is lighting up the x's and o's this season.

2/10/2008 11:15:51 PM

^ what!?!? it CANT BE THAT! no way!

2/10/2008 11:18:50 PM

There have been a lot more head scratchers this year. I was at the Wake/GT game the other night and Harvey Hale dribbles through a double team, clearly within his right, and he got the fuck hacked out of him by the guy on his right, and they called a charge. I mean, the charging/blocking foul is subjective and its only a charge if you're the visiting team at d00k and its only a block if tyler hansbrough has the ball in his hands....but back to the point, I've never seen a call so far off in my life. From where I was sitting, about 3 rows back right in front of the play, it was physically impossible for him to have charged. The defender was out of position in a shitty attempt at a double team and Hale clearly was fouled on the play, but it was a charge. Then, on the next posession, they call GT for a travel, when the player was clearly shoved to cause the travel. What gives?


I shouldn't be surprised anymore, but I think it gets worse and worse every year.

2/10/2008 11:19:07 PM

and this thread is different than the other arguments... I can see shitty calls or no calls, I can see shitty refs that miss a lot of calls etc., thats totally realistic, but to say that the refs sit around and plan to "let" duke and unc win is just stupid

2/10/2008 11:21:04 PM

it was said in the other thread, but they probably (probably) don't sit around and plan it, but I've seen way too many games in my day where d00k or UNx are getting dominated only to have a couple of key calls go their way (especially on their home floors) that gets the team and crowd pumped up and next thing you know, they're on a 10-0 run and back in the game.


Dook and unc dont fucking need help from the refs, yet they consistently get it. Thats whats so frustrating about our game against duke the other night. I feel like they were going to get back in the game and possibly win anyway, but the refs held their whistles just long enough to let them get their shots back and boom....blowout. Its sickening.

2/10/2008 11:26:41 PM

well, I agree that there are bad calls, the refs are humans, bad calls will happen. But I think that over the grand scheme of things they even out, what is MUCH more important is how teams respond to either getting a call in their favor, or the other team getting a call in their favor.

2/10/2008 11:28:48 PM

I agree with that too. State sucked balls and gave up when we got bad calls against us against duke, so we lost. You have to be mentally tough when that shit happens.


But on the other hand, there were at least 5 WHISTLES (not including no-calls, which there were a few) in a row against State in the first half when we were up by 9 the fist time. That should never happen in a 2 minute stretch. It started with the clock 'malfunction" which was as good as a timeout for duke and continuted for about 2 minutes before they finally realized that they were out of control.

IMO, the officials are so bad all around that they just assume the better team (usually d00k or unc) didnt commit the foul or that they got fouled. I never thought as a state fan I'd leave a Wake/GT game bitching about some officials, but it happened. They ruined a great basketball game.

[Edited on February 10, 2008 at 11:48 PM. Reason : ]

2/10/2008 11:47:27 PM

Quote :

"IMO, the officials are so bad all around that they just assume the better team (usually d00k or unc) didnt commit the foul or that they got fouled."

2/11/2008 7:56:42 AM

Refereeing a basketball game is like grading an English paper. Most of the time it's graded on the "meh, I'll give it a B" system. Hardly any science to it at all. Of course this allows refs to interject their bias into the game.

2/11/2008 8:16:30 AM

Quote :

"but to say that the refs sit around and plan to "let" duke and unc win is just stupid"

I think it is a bit absurd to suggest this. However, I don't think it is a stretch at all to imagine this scenario

The ACC officials are at their yearly meetings before the season starts with ACC top brass (swofford, etc). After going over details about schedules and officiating crews, the top brass reminds the officials that they are getting paid good money, and that if they have to answer to K and Roy about why the officiating was so bad from the night before, then the number of games that group of officials will be doing is going to get reduced. It isn't an outright command to call in favor for the top 2 dogs, but when those guys are in the games, it's lurking in the back of their head that if there is any slant against them, their jobs are going to be on the line. Thats all it would take. There is just something inherently wrong in the officiating when you watch the game and see how physical it was in general, you watch how tight UNC was playing Clemson, then you look at the fouls and number of free throws taken. Disgusting.

2/11/2008 10:47:39 AM

The biggest problem with ACC officiating is one I've been harping on at least 10 years: ACC refs call the most cheap touch fouls I've ever seen. Then, our teams get to the NCAA tournament, where officiating is FAR more lenient, and physical teams beat the absolute crap out of our teams in the post because they aren't used to playing that way. To me, that is as big a problem as the glaringly obvious Duke/UNC bias.

2/11/2008 11:01:26 AM

^
This is why Duke chokes every year. It is exacerbated by Coach K's coaching, that leans heavily on taking advantage of ACC officiating.

2/11/2008 11:03:39 AM

Quote :

"but to say that the refs sit around and plan to "let" duke and unc win is just stupid"

I don't know. Last week I caught myself thinking the following:

Duke v. UNC on Wednesday. Both are ranked in the top 5. The powers that be absolutely, positively, do not want either team to lose any of their games in the days leading up to that contest. If they both win out leading up to "the greatest rivalry" you are looking at two teams with one loss each. Ratings. Now imagine if either team (or both) drop a couple of games leading up to that Wednesday. Suddenly the game doesn't have quite as much as an advertising draw across the nation. Less revenue.

2/11/2008 11:34:16 AM

I think this is all a little much. I dont think there's some massive economically-driven conspiracy going on. I just think that some of the refs in the ACC are piss poor and have been that way for many years. I also think that the refs are too easily swayed by big name coaches and tend to side with them if the coach disagrees with a call.

2/11/2008 11:52:09 AM

thats better... even reasonable

2/11/2008 1:29:15 PM

http://wral.com/sports/story/2420137/

Quote :

"One major factor in the game was foul shooting. Clemson made only one of seven foul shots. Carolina, meanwhile, was 31 of 36 at the line. One reporter asked Purnell if he was concerned about that discrepancy. “I haven’t had a chance to look at the game yet,” he said. “My first thought is we weren’t physical enough, we didn’t get it inside enough. That’s my first thought, but let me look at the tape.”"

I'm sure that nothing will happen though.

2/11/2008 5:12:46 PM

Quote :

"hence, the coach ks & roy williams of the world are able to get the calls that the sid lowes & oliver parnells just can't"

http://packsmack.com/InfamousACCIndexCard/

We're actually 2nd in the league (behind UNC, ahead of Duke) in FT attempt margin.

And if you check Pomery's stats on FT/FGA, we're one of the top teams in the nation (and also one of the best at limiting opponent FT attempts).

2/11/2008 5:25:23 PM

just look at the end of the UMD/UNC game. The refs basically did all they could to let UNC win with multiple silly "out of bounds on UMD" calls that were clearly out on UNC...

2/11/2008 6:14:21 PM

I have no problem w/ UNC being atop of the standing in FT attempt margin. They have solid inside play that draws fouls, plus good guards who can drive and draw fouls as well. To top it off they're quick enough to play defense without accumulating a lot of fouls. My biggest gripe about Carolina is their ability to take more steps than an AA program.

As for Duke:

An easy explaination of us being ahead in margin would be we don't foul as often as Duke does. Duke has actually attempted more free throws than we have, which is a joke, and here's why.

Duke doesn't have a big man. All they do is shoot threes with frequent slashing drives. You would think the drives would make up for the lack of a big man in terms of free throws, but they usually don't because of the way Duke spaces the court. Because every player is a perimeter threat, defenders are often pulled out of the lane allowing Duke a foul free trip to the hole on drives.

Duke's aggressive defense lends itself to having numerous fouls called on them per game. They actually aren't called for fouls as often as they should and I think part of the reason why is the refs would be blowing the whistle every 30 seconds if they did. Our "oh shit he's by me, why didn't you help?" defense, on the other hand, lends itself to hassle free (read foul free) trips to the basket.

Where Duke is picking up all of these fouls on their opponents is beyond me. A lot of it is probably superior rebounding position/wanting the ball more (and getting to it first) on Duke's part. But I still say a lot of it is Coach K working the refs on a regular basis and his players putting on their own version of the Flying (in their case flopping) Walindas on the court. They're one of the most dishonorable college basketball teams I've ever seen. They make up for their lack of athleticism w/ great hustle and even better manipulation of sub-par refs.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 6:29 PM. Reason : asdf]

2/11/2008 6:27:16 PM

^duke is terrible at rebounding this year, but other than that I agree with you.

Quote :

"We're actually 2nd in the league (behind UNC, ahead of Duke) in FT attempt margin. And if you check Pomery's stats on FT/FGA, we're one of the top teams in the nation (and also one of the best at limiting opponent FT attempts). "

Just checking to see if you were using this to validate the shitty officiating during the State/Duke game the other night. Some people are arguing that we shouldnt bitch because the fouls were even for the game, but considering our pound it inside style and their 3 point shooting style, alongwith their agressive D and our lazy D, they should have more fouls and we should have more free throw attempts.



I personally try not to look at the foul count or use it in an argument about bad officiating because its too subjective. It matters how and when the calls were made. Were all of the calls against the blue bloods made in junk time when they were up 30? (yes, see State/UNC). Were all of the calls made on questionable plays that would be considered momentum changers? (yes to State/Duke or UNC/Clemson). Its the inconsistency thats the problem.

2/11/2008 6:54:41 PM

Some UNC homer named Phil or Phillip called into Packman this afternoon a little after 4 as I was driving home. He was pulling stats out of his ass when they asked him if he thought that UNC shooting 36 FTs to Clemson's 7 was a little concerning. He rambled on about UNC going inside (which they do) and Clemson being a team that shoots a lot of jump shots. Clemson last I checked has one of the strongest front courts in the ACC this year and likes to pound the ball into their big men just as much. They do have good shooters like Rivers, Hammonds, and Oglesby though which is why they are so dangerous. There's definitely something wrong when Tyler Hansbrough nearly shoots 3 times as many FTs as the opposing team does. Then the Phillip guy said something about State and BC playing the other week and how many fouls there were in that game. I was like , wtf is this guy talking about. State and BC haven't even played each other yet, in fact they play for the first time this season on Thurs. Typical stupid Tar Hole fan that doesn't really pay attention and likes to make shit up. I nearly called in to the show to call his ass out, but I had crap to do once I got home. I think I've heard that guy call in before.

2/11/2008 7:13:24 PM

one thing that really really pissed me off, and still pops in my head every now and then, is when Javi Gonzalez got called for a 5-second violation when he was driving to the basket against Duke

I have never seen or heard of that getting called in a game. and this all occurred when we were in the midst of losing our halftime lead, totally swaying momentum and getting the crowd back into the game

2/11/2008 7:29:09 PM

Quote :

"Just checking to see if you were using this to validate the shitty officiating during the State/Duke game the other night. Some people are arguing that we shouldnt bitch because the fouls were even for the game, but considering our pound it inside style and their 3 point shooting style, alongwith their agressive D and our lazy D, they should have more fouls and we should have more free throw attempts."

Stats like this don't really work when evaluating an individual game because there are so many possibilities for variation (and a lot of potential for bias in evaluating the situation).

What I'm pointing out is an interesting element--if you check the list over the past few years, the top teams in the league tend to be the ones that get the best FT attempt advantage.

Our team last year finished 3rd in the league in foul margin, and tied for 7th in FT margin. This is odd for a team that finished in 10th place in the standings. On top of that, we have a losing record this year...and yet have the 2nd-best mark in FT attempt margin.

These severely argue against "Sid not getting calls" in general. You could attribute it to (a) our team having more athleticism across the board than previous years, (b) playing an offense that runs through the post, (c) Sid working the refs...or most likely a combination of all of these.

2/11/2008 7:41:12 PM

Quote :

"the top teams in the league tend to be the ones that get the best FT attempt advantage."

really?!?!? you dont say! teams that win a lot of games have leads at the end of games and get fouled a lot??? no way

2/11/2008 7:45:12 PM

the only major problem I have with the refs is that Hansfag is allowed to fly out of control into opponents who are standing straight up and he goes to the free throw line more than anyone else in the conference

but in regards to last night's game, Clemson just did some retarded things and then played not to lose in 2OT. they had two chances where they had the last shot and completely blew it both times, so i don't feel bad for them.

according to clemson.scout.com, they are contacting the ACC about the game, which seems pretty dumb to me

2/11/2008 8:01:54 PM

all that will do is make them look like poor sports and whiners...its not going to change the outcome of the game at all

it could help out with officiating the next time they play each other, but probably not

2/11/2008 8:04:21 PM

Now just change the colors to blue and white.

The king flopper himself.


[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 8:33 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2008 8:28:09 PM

Quote :

"one thing that really really pissed me off, and still pops in my head every now and then, is when Javi Gonzalez got called for a 5-second violation when he was driving to the basket against Duke I have never seen or heard of that getting called in a game. and this all occurred when we were in the midst of losing our halftime lead, totally swaying momentum and getting the crowd back into the game"

i think the actual call on the play was palming, but the announcers incorrectly said it was a 5-second violation

2/11/2008 9:46:19 PM

lol palming is an even gayer call than 5 seconds. They could call that shit every time down the floor on every player in the country.

But DaveOT I agree. I think what Sid does is run an offense that gets us to the line a LOT and we do a pretty damn good job of it. I also think we play a defense that is about position rather than agressiveness (argument for another time) which leads to fewer fouls being committed. We get dominated from time to time down low because of it (see second half against MD) but the idea I think is to keep our bigs out of foul trouble.

The reason state fans are complaining IMO is that we see that we're not being agressive on D, yet still called for bogus fouls. They see that we're being agressive in the paint and not getting the benefit of the doubt sometimes down low. So no matter how the foul count comes out, the style of play between two teams should dictate those numbers and I feel like we come out on the short end of that sometimes.


BTW for those interested (if it hasnt been said yet), clemson's AD is taking the game last night to the ACC for review because of officiating fwiw. Sounds like their main complaint is the 12:21 stretch in the first half where clemson was called for 10 fouls to ZERO against UNC.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 9:56 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2008 9:55:38 PM

i'm glad they are contacting the ACC about this. It won't change the outcome the game last night, but hopefully it will equate to more fair officiating in future games.

2/11/2008 10:04:42 PM

I'm glad someone is doing it, but I'm glad its clemson doing it and not NC State. Now they're the ones that look like pussies and sore losers, even though they have a VERY valid point.

2/11/2008 10:09:32 PM

http://www.statefansnation.com has some good reading material on last nights game too. I'm just glad I'm not the only one that thinks this is getting out of control.

Also this http://www.thetigernet.com/blogs/plyler/entry/a_better_idea is an excellent blog, albeit it is a Clemson blog.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 10:22 PM. Reason : ,]

2/11/2008 10:21:45 PM

by the way, does anyone know where I can find the email address of the ACC/who is in charge of officiating?? I think the more they hear about it the better.

Just like the student ticket thread, maybe if we can bring this to light something can be done about it. If they get enough people complaining maybe they will realize that this is a detriment to the ACC in general.

Haha I sent an email to PTI about this, although they brought it up in todays show. I love how Wilbon was real skeptical of the officiating.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 10:45 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2008 10:34:21 PM

Quote :

"BTW for those interested (if it hasnt been said yet), clemson's AD is taking the game last night to the ACC for review because of officiating fwiw. Sounds like their main complaint is the 12:21 stretch in the first half where clemson was called for 10 fouls to ZERO against UNC. "

I'd like some evidence of this, if you had watched the game you might have seen clemson was basically going through a lay up drill on offense, plus hansbrough never leaves his feet on defense

2/11/2008 10:47:20 PM

seriously, i'd love to know what the percentage of people bitching is who actually watched the game

2/11/2008 10:49:53 PM

I've been watching all the ACC games, and no other player but Hansborough is allowed to lower his shoulder and plow to the basket like he is. The big man for UNC has 2 fouls during regulation (3 total in 2OT) and two of the most important players for Clemson (including Hammonds who is basically a 3 point shooter) gets fouled out?

From statefansnation blog:

Quote :

"Not one player on UNC had more than three fouls including Hansbrough who played 47 minutes. Have you ever seen a double over time game when a team did not have a single player in foul trouble?"

I'll answer with a resounding NO.

and for those who DIDN'T see the game (which I'm sure everyone did anyways):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgohokGczg

beware, shitty video quality.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 10:57 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2008 10:54:00 PM

Interesting fact!

Hansbrough has fouled out of only two games in his career, none this year. Only twice this season has he picked up four fouls: against Davidson in their first game and last week against Duke.

2/11/2008 10:58:21 PM

I hate to say it but as long as Johnny Swafford is in charge there ain't gonna be a damn thing that changes about ACC officiating. He WILL protect his interests. As bad as ACC basketball officiating is concerned, football is ten times as worse. Jim Knight has a damn heart attack on the field @ Kenan and right there at the UNC hospitals they save him. You can't tell me he wasn't going to look after UNC's interests after that and we know all to well he did (see TA in 04). After that though imo he had no business officiating any of their games. That man was a joke out there with his huge gut. Aside from him Ron Cherry is an embarrassment. Our officiating is criticized from August to January by ALL of the ESPN announcers. Herbie constantly rips it. I was down right embarrassed when I heard about Cherry's announcement on that call in the Maryland game. No ref in major college football should utter a damn phrase like that. We were the laughing stock of the college football world. If you are getting paid to do a job that many people would love to have, you need to bring a certain amount of professionalism to it and that oaf made our league and officials look even more like the clowns than they already are.

2/11/2008 11:00:00 PM

Quote :

"I've been watching all the ACC games, and no other player but Hansborough is allowed to lower his shoulder and plow to the basket like he is. The big man for UNC has 2 fouls during regulation (3 total in 2OT) and two of the most important players for Clemson (including Hammonds who is basically a 3 point shooter) gets fouled out? "

hansbrough thrives on contact no doubt, but these guys should be coached to fall backwards if he is creating most of it, instead of going right back at him even harder, plus it doesn't exactly look good in the ref's eyes when teams try to rough him up from the start, also he has had like less than ten blocks the whole year so hes not going to pick up many fouls on D

2/11/2008 11:03:38 PM

Quote :

"No ref in major college football should utter a damn phrase like that."

It's not like he was the first ref to make that call

Quote :

"We were the laughing stock of the college football world."

"We" as in NC State or as in the ACC? Because if it's the former, you're a damn moron.

2/11/2008 11:04:33 PM

watch the youtube video I posted. I'm not making this up. jprince you are undoubtedly a UNC fan.

2/11/2008 11:07:43 PM