I'm watching the Colbert Report, and it made want to ask what is, as the title suggest, probably a stupid question:

Are you patriotic?

Or, perhaps slightly better put:

Is patriotism inherently positive/negative?

I can predict a fair number of the answers I'd get, and obviously I freely admit the whole thing is pretty simplistic. But not being able to find a thread about it, and being aware that for many people it's a driving force behind their ideology, I thought I'd ask. Where does "country" fit into your list of priorities? Does it fit at all?

I dunno, I'm curious.




Also drunk.


And on the wolfweb. It's a bad combination.

3/7/2008 12:10:48 AM

patriot

Quote :

"1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion. 2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriot

If these definitions are what it means to be a "patriot," then, yes, (1) I consider myself to be patriotic, and (2) I think legitimate patriotism is an inherently positive thing.

But the problems start when some use the word "patriotism" to unfairly bash others about the head and shoulders, and when some have confused ideas about patriotism that involve blind allegiance and jingoism, and when some have no concept of the meaning of patriotism and couldn't care less about it.

3/7/2008 12:23:24 AM

I have always believed that fanaticism about anything is a bad thing, be it a country, religion, a school, or, heck, Star Wars. Over-belief in something can lead an individual to be ignorant of the true facts surrounding that object, and ignore any contrary opinion. In order for any true exchange of ideas to occur, people must remain unbiased, even regarding the things they emotionally care about.

[Edited on March 7, 2008 at 12:42 AM. Reason : .]

3/7/2008 12:42:08 AM

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"I have always believed that fanaticism about anything is a bad thing, be it ... Star Wars."

Take that back!

3/7/2008 12:46:24 AM

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"Are you patriotic?"

Fiercely.

Quote :

"Is patriotism inherently positive/negative?"

As distinct from nationalism and jingoism, patriotism isn't inherently either. The other two I'd say are inherently negative, though often confused with patriotism.

Quote :

"Where does "country" fit into your list of priorities?"

Tough to answer. What do you mean by "country?"

3/7/2008 12:46:46 AM

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"Is patriotism inherently positive/negative?"

It all depends on your meaning of the word - "patriotism" has become a loaded word these days, often confused with "nationalism." If "patriotism" means "defending what one believes to be one's country's best interests," then there's obviously nothing wrong with this. But unchecked nationalism - i.e., "my country right or wrong" leads to some very negative consequences.

3/7/2008 12:48:18 AM

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"Tough to answer. What do you mean by "country?""

Your nation-state of birth or long-term residence, in this case.

Quote :

"If "patriotism" means "defending what one believes to be one's country's best interests," then there's obviously nothing wrong with this. But unchecked nationalism - i.e., "my country right or wrong" leads to some very negative consequences."

I like this kind of answer. But what do you mean by "unchecked" nationalism? Is there a degree of nationalism which is acceptable?

[Edited on March 7, 2008 at 12:56 AM. Reason : ]

3/7/2008 12:56:22 AM

"Benign" might be the word I'd pick for it. Some amount of nationalism is harmless - think of it like national pride. There's nothing inherently wrong with having pride in your country, and supporting it before others - it's when that level of pride starts to blind other concerns, especially when your country is in the wrong, that it becomes dangerous.

3/7/2008 12:58:38 AM

With nationalism as with faith i think the real problem is people who don't think for themselves. There are plenty of people who just want a flat set of right and wrong standards they can always follow, and they are going to fall into extremisms, weather it is rabid conservatism, or liberalism, loyalty to the government, religiousness, or hatred of religion. Because anything but an extreme is going to require some thought at some point. So my point is that no way of thinking is bad as long as it isn't your only way of thinking. if it is you end up like those people in the brickyard shouting about something or other, till they're practically foaming at the mouth.

3/7/2008 1:23:35 AM

^^Well, I gotta admit, what you just said struck me as saying "harmless nationalism is harmless," but it's a start.

I'm curious as to your expansion on the concept of "supporting it before others."

[Edited on March 7, 2008 at 1:24 AM. Reason : ]

3/7/2008 1:24:15 AM

Well, more like, "in moderation it's harmless." Like having a general pride in our nation as being an overall decent place and a lot better than most others. Like expressing confidence in the principles of our founding, like liberty, constitutionally-limited government, etc. Hell, cheering for our sports teams.

It's when pride in one's country blinds one to whatever errors it commits that it crosses the line into "dangerous."

3/7/2008 1:51:45 AM

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"It's when pride in one's country blinds one to whatever errors it commits that it crosses the line into "dangerous." "

True.


I get teary-eyed whenever I hear the national anthem and I don't cry easily. I consider myself patriotic.

3/7/2008 1:54:40 AM

I'm am very patriotic to the ideals of our country.. limited government, individual rights, rule of law etc....

But I am highly suspicious of the mere mortals who are responsible for carrying out those ideals.

3/7/2008 10:52:49 AM

Being proud of your country is one thing

Being fanatically devoted to your country beyond reason is another.

3/7/2008 11:23:46 AM

I believe in the value of my state and country and feel a sense of community within them. That said I also see many flaws with it. But those flaws don't turn me away from it, instead they are what keep me voting and working with political campaigns.

While I'd never subscribe to an idea just because someone else labeled it as patriotic, I do understand the value of symbolism.

Two of my favorite American symbols are:



The vast majority of friends, family, and people I know live in this time zone, in those states. And its a uniting symbol of our history both north and south as the first 13 colonies. A symbol of independence. And it puts our home state NC in a special position as one amongst 13 instead of the litany of states the current flag has.



A welcoming symbol. A symbol of diversity and independence.

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"Symbolism The Statue of Liberty's classical appearance (Roman stola, sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Her raised right foot is on the move. This symbol of Liberty and Freedom is not standing still or at attention in the harbor, she is moving forward, as her left foot tramples broken shackles at her feet, in symbolism of the United States's wish to be free from oppression and tyranny.[3] The seven spikes on the crown represent the Seven Seas and seven continents.[4] Her torch signifies enlightenment. The tablet in her hand represents knowledge and shows the date of the nation's birth, July 4, 1776. The general appearance of the statue’s head and dress approximates the Greek Sun-god Apollo or Helios as preserved on an ancient marble tablet (today in the Archaeological Museum of Corinth (Corinth, Greece) - Apollo was represented as a solar deity, dressed in a similar robe and having on its head a "radiate crown" with the seven spiked rays of the Helios-Apollo's sun rays, like the Statue's nimbus or halo. The ancient Colossus of Rhodes, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, was a statue of Helios with a radiate crown, which is referred to in the 1903 poem The New Colossus by Emma Lazarus. The statue, also known as "Lady Liberty," has been a symbol of welcome to arriving immigrants, who could see the statue when they got close to arriving at their new home or destination. There is a version of the statue in France given by the US."

-wiki

Then again I'm an agnostic gay democrat, how patriotic can I be? But I am very excited because I'll get to see Lady Liberty in person for the first time tomorrow.

3/7/2008 2:06:18 PM

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" Imagine there's no Countries. It isn't hard to do. No one to Kill or Die for And no Religion too. "

3/7/2008 2:40:35 PM

I feel very patriotic about what this country used to stand for.

However, materialism and moral relativism seem to be the governing principles of our current system so no I am emphatically unpatriotic towards the current US government.

My allegiance is not to the country but rather to a set of unchanging ideals. If the country happens to line up with those ideals then I will be patriotic. Until the US as a nation supports the family and abandons abortion as a legal option I cannot affirm my support.

"Liberty and justice for all" except the innocent and indefensible. No thanks.

3/7/2008 9:20:21 PM

No, I don't think I am. I'd like to wipe all borders off the map.

3/7/2008 11:18:36 PM

^^^ Secular humanism FTW, huh?

3/10/2008 4:18:46 AM

If by patriot, you mean a flag waving, jingoist, who feels that consumption and cheap petroleum are his birthright? Then no, I'm not.


If by someone who believes in the Constitution and has literally sworn an oath to defend it? Yes.


Sadly I think the former far outnumber the latter, but they probably always have. I do think we are basically good people and that our nation holds more hope for the world than most other countries. There is more to be said, but I'm not sure I can articulate it right now.

3/10/2008 7:44:02 AM

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"Being proud of your country is one thing Being fanatically devoted to your country beyond reason is another."

3/10/2008 8:58:01 AM

I feel patriotic. I would physically fight for America to defend our rights.

Though I've been denied the right to feel patriotic in my life many times. I've heard the sentence, "Go back to China". And I'm not even Chinese. And naturally, most people label me as a foreigner at first sight. They ask me where I'm from and automatically assume it's China or Vietnam. No one ever assumes California. And I'll admit that it does hurt at times. I want to identify, but I'm automatically denied.

I was born American. I was raised American. Taught the American way (along with some "asian" culture). English is practically my first language (along with a few "asian" words). I've even shopped at American Eagle once or twice. I am American. At the least, label me Asian American. I'll even accept Chinese American or "yellow" American. Anything American will do. This is my home. I have no other. I don't, won't, and can't comprehend being something other than an American.

3/10/2008 9:23:00 AM

Quote :

"I'm all for America / Fuck the government"

3/10/2008 1:39:24 PM

So far I've been somewhat disappointed in most of these answers.

A fair number of said that they are patriotic for the ideals of this country, which leads me wonder, "Well, if they had been born in the Bill of Rights deprived UK, who would they be patriotic for then?"

Another portion have essentially said, "Be proud, just not too proud." Then they say that it is wrong to be patriotic to the point of being blind to reason.

But where exactly the hell is that point? If America was hunky-dory in every conceivable way, and you sincerely thought that every single thing it was doing was great, except it had policy with which you adamantly disagreed...is that where you have to stop being proud?

Because, of course, it's not reasonable to let your patriotism blind you to the this one thing, but it also seems kind of silly to demand perfection.

To be honest a lot of the answers seem like their primary purpose is to navigate between being unpatriotic and being a irrational.

3/10/2008 1:59:27 PM

They are just imaginary lines on a map, Grump.

3/10/2008 2:23:52 PM

^^ perhaps you should reframe your question?

I don't think patriotism and reason can't co-exist, especially in the United States. We're fairly unique in that we were founded on an ideal; not due to ancient tribal lines, or common linguistics, or abruptly tossed into power in the wake of a failed colonial empire. To that extent, I define my patriotism by how well we manage to live up to that ideal. Realizing that we've often fallen horrifically short of that deal, I believe we've still been the nation which has driven most of the openness and freedom in the world over the last century. I don't chose to view our failures along the way as justification for abandoning the whole experiement, but rather as an opportunity to rededicate ourselves to the ideals set forth by the Founding Fathers. I think that is patriotic.


If you define patriotism as slapping a yellow ribbon magnet on your car and calling everyone who questions the Iraq war a terroist sympathizer, then no, I'm not a patriot. However, I don't think that to support of a policy simply because people who are doing it profane the Consitution by wrapping themselves in the American flag is truly patriotic.

There is a reason I refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I respect the flag for what it is supposed to represent, but I don't follow symbols.

3/10/2008 2:35:21 PM

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"Another portion have essentially said, "Be proud, just not too proud." Then they say that it is wrong to be patriotic to the point of being blind to reason. But where exactly the hell is that point? If America was hunky-dory in every conceivable way, and you sincerely thought that every single thing it was doing was great, except it had policy with which you adamantly disagreed...is that where you have to stop being proud? Because, of course, it's not reasonable to let your patriotism blind you to the this one thing, but it also seems kind of silly to demand perfection."

I think you're misinterpreting the statement. The issue is, "Don't let pride in your country override the need for change." Pride to the point of blindness to one's faults is hubris, which is a problem.

Look, another way of expressing it is this - pride should be a motive to spur improvement, not to gloss over it and pretend everything is perfect. That's the difference between legitimate patriotism and jingoism.

3/10/2008 4:16:51 PM

^ what he said.

and yes i consider myself a patriotic American

3/10/2008 5:30:14 PM